Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Seiyashi]

1 minute ago, Gurowake said:

4 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Besides, the loanword seems to be accepted for things like music top of the charts, so it's not a leap to see it applied here. 

I totally understand that it's become accepted to use in general, but it really bugs me because that suggests that there simply were never rankings of anything until English became a major influence.  That seems....unlikely.

Well, take your pick from any of these: https://jisho.org/search/ranking

A possible explanation is that loanwords are used deliberately as a form of stylistic suck - i.e. when the author wants to imply that this kind of statistic is a modern affectation and not something of any meaning or consequence. The alternatives for ranking in Japanese are all a bit more formal than throwing in a loanword would imply.

[Akinomaki]

1 minute ago, Gurowake said:

I totally understand that it's become accepted to use in general, but it really bugs me because that suggests that there simply were never rankings of anything until English became a major influence.  That seems....unlikely.

For something with 1., 2., 3. use ranking, for other things there is a banzuke: Y, O, S ... (onsen resorts, best this, best that)

[Gurowake]

12 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

More calligraphic forms will have the ri connected and the ki disconnected, while the more mechanical ones will be the other way round.

I definitely agree this is the case, but it just seems as though it would make more sense when defining a font to have either all optional connections used, or none.  Why does going with a more calligraphic font disconnect some kana but connect others?

Edited November 15, 2020 by Gurowake

[Gurowake]

10 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

The alternatives for ranking in Japanese are all a bit more formal than throwing in a loanword would imply.

Yeah, I don't know a lot about Japanese usage, never having mastered it enough to be able to read decent size works not produced for educating people trying to learn Japanese.  Usage is one thing that you definitely have to do a lot of reading in a language to get a good feel for, and someone's perfectly grammatical and intelligble speaking or writing can seem very foreign just because of usage.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Gurowake

[Seiyashi]

31 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I definitely agree this is the case, but it just seems as though it would make more sense when defining a font to have either all optional connections used, or none.  Why does going with a more calligraphic font disconnect some kana but connect others?

I went down the rabbit hole and came back up with possibly the most unsatisfying answer ever - it's a matter of style!

https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/57262/are-hiragana-letters-written-with-their-small-nuances?rq=1

In some graphics from the official font designers for the Tokyo 2020 games, they even have a design book with two pages open next to each other showing one with both ki and ri connected, and the other with ki connected and ri disconnected - https://tokyo2020.org/en/news/morisawa-official-font-tokyo-2020, 

I tried to do a search for NHK fonts but came up short. Apparently some of the fonts NHK uses for earthquake newsflashes come from old-school vendors without even their own internet presence, so I wouldn't be surprised if the font we're debating in question is provided by one of these.

[hakutorizakura]

On 14/11/2020 at 20:40, robnplunder said:

 

How about adding the following awards:

• Ran farthest after losing

Yutakayama is in the lead for this now 

I'm quite pleased to see Uncle Takara with a good score (reptilian overlords notwithstanding). Hope he will get that 8 and then 10. He's probably never a yusho contender, but his sumo is always composed and he doesn't like to get close to the kitchen sink. 

[Dwale]

3 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Another impressive thing is that Hoshoryu (67 kgs lighter) has beaten the Mongolian Monster twice in a row!  He is living proof that technique trumps weight.

Absolutely. I've been really pleased with him and look forward to seeing the rest of his career.

[Amamaniac]

1 hour ago, Dwale said:

Absolutely. I've been really pleased with him and look forward to seeing the rest of his career.

Future Yokozuna?  I, for one, am hopeful.  But he still has work to do, and perhaps a little more muscle weight to gain.

[Kintamayama]

5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

 Sanspo was distorting what Takasago said, leaving out the bit from the NHK announcer to which it was a reply, thus creating a false point of view: He himself was no yokozuna and thus did not know the feeling of being a yokozuna, hearing and getting taught about it.

Takasago this time did not complain about Asashoryu as much as Sanspo tried to convey.

It can be understood both ways- I think I was the one distorting and he did actually say he had no idea what it feels like to be a yokozuna, and not Asashouryuu, There is no I or he so the context is important, and I think I screwed that one up. Again. 

[dada78641]

4 hours ago, Gurowake said:

What I find most surprising is....the "り" is completely connected, while the "き" is not, the opposite of how they are shown on, say, Wikipedia and thus how they show up to me in the post since I pasted them from there and it presumably copied the font.  I'm always surprised at seeing fonts with a disconnected "き" or "そ" since the Wikipedia canonical forms have connections (though it does show the alternate versions), while clearly if there are disconnected forms at some point they presumably were always written disconnected and as the cursive style of hiragana developed they became connected more often than not.  I'm not sure how "り" is the complete opposite, being disconnected in Wikipedia's canonical form but much more likely to be written connected in my experience (or at least was written connected in a program that I used quite a lot to study, in which "き" and "そ" were also connected).

You can really think of both styles (connected and non-connected strokes) as equally "correct". It's kind of like serifs/sans serifs in Latin fonts. If you go to a Japanese language school where they'll mark your whole kanji as incorrect if you make just one tiny minuscule mistake somewhere, they'll none the less be perfectly fine with either style in your handwriting. Modern fonts mostly use the connected style. Just because Wikipedia shows one particular style doesn't mean that's necessarily the "correct" way or the only way. In handwriting people usually write them non-connected.

In calligraphy (the font in that image mimics a particular calligraphy style), when using a thick brush, two strokes that are close together (like the two り strokes) tend to be connected more commonly. The き strokes are actually a bit further away from each other and the bottom left hook stroke is actually quite small.

Sorry for this aside, now back to our regular programming...

[Gospodin]

7 hours ago, lackmaker said:

So who in the top division would you most like to get in a real fight with if you had to fight someone?

I´d prefer to meet some of them and have a nice talk. But if I had to - Aoiyama or Ichinojo, because I am pretty sure I could run from them and save my life.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Gospodin

[Kaninoyama]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

It can be understood both ways- I think I was the one distorting and he did actually say he had no idea what it feels like to be a yokozuna, and not Asashouryuu, There is no I or he so the context is important, and I think I screwed that one up. Again. 

Yes, in the broadcast yesterday, when asked about "raising" a Yokozuna (in the context of the many sekitori he had developed), Asashio said he could take no credit for doing so, that Asashoryu essentially became one on his own merit. And that since he himself had only reached Ozeki, he had to learn the ins and outs of what one of his deshi (Asashoryu) becoming a Yokozuna entails on the fly. 

[Tsuchinoninjin]

5 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

I went down the rabbit hole and came back up with possibly the most unsatisfying answer ever - it's a matter of style!

https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/57262/are-hiragana-letters-written-with-their-small-nuances?rq=1

In some graphics from the official font designers for the Tokyo 2020 games, they even have a design book with two pages open next to each other showing one with both ki and ri connected, and the other with ki connected and ri disconnected - https://tokyo2020.org/en/news/morisawa-official-font-tokyo-2020,

I tried to do a search for NHK fonts but came up short. Apparently some of the fonts NHK uses for earthquake newsflashes come from old-school vendors without even their own internet presence, so I wouldn't be surprised if the font we're debating in question is provided by one of these.

The hiragana font on the right side is a crime against humanity.

[Kishinoyama]

12 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

In other news, Hokuseiho won his KK today, but his sumo didn't seem very convincing - he had to use his strength and height to beat his technically-superior aite. Perhaps a sign of things to come...

I was finally able to see this match and I thought Hokuseiho did quite well. He showed some good defensive sumo and then went on offense to throw a heavier opponent. 

[jsolo]

Blog Report (for beginners but may be of interest to more knowledgeable fans as well.

November Basho Report Days 1-8

Report includes:

Intro

Links:

Preview articles and podcasts (English)

Complete linked list of Makuuchi Basho Participants (Rikishi, info, place of birth, Stable DOB, Height, Weight)

Links to info about notable occurrences when they happen (Kotoshogiku retirement, Shodai and Asanoyama withdrawals, Ura's use of rare Izori Kimarite with links to video)

Video links (NHK daily highlights of all matches--will be available for 2 weeks after end of Basho, and links to Chris Sumo Youtube videos--videos recorded on site)

Result links

Article links (English and Japanese)

Photo Links (English and Japanese)

Condensed daily results (from Sumo Reference text results and Nissansports match time data).

Daily and cumulative Kimarite report (for the entire Basho, not by Rikishi)

Match time reports (daily and cumulative).

Top Rank Wins--Maegashira v san'yaku standings--Juryo substitute results and standings

Below November is September Basho Report, below that is July, below that a link to March.

Interesting comparison of Kimarite types and numbers cumulative through  7 days for November v September (more types and lower % Yorikiri/Oshidashi) and cumulative match times through 7 days for Nov v Sep (over 3 minutes longer cumulative and with more longer matches.). Check it out. 

Blog will be updated on a daily basis. through the end and then added to after with supplementary links as they become available 

Enjoy.

Feedback welcomed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Akinomaki]

10 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

It can be understood both ways- I think I was the one distorting and he did actually say he had no idea what it feels like to be a yokozuna, and not Asashouryuu, There is no I or he so the context is important, and I think I screwed that one up. Again. 

The Sanspo text I guess you used was leaving out the context, thus it is them who created a false impression, with the wrong preceding context "This yokozuna caused me extremely great problems", which he didn't say at THAT point. Any reader who hadn't listen to the actual interview would rather have thought just as you did (being used to the traditional Asashoryu bashing). Only those really familiar with Takasago would have inserted in their mind: (stopped at ozeki), which the writer of the article should have in print.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Akinomaki

[Dwale]

10 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Future Yokozuna?  I, for one, am hopeful.  But he still has work to do, and perhaps a little more muscle weight to gain.

I'm always hesitant to make calls like that. Either way, you're right, he has bulk to gain and skills to refine. I will say at this point that I'm expecting a bright future for him, wherever it ends up leading.

[Kaninoyama]

Enho is back...with a new (old) mawashi and a desperately needed first win this basho. 

[Kaninoyama]

Meanwhile, down in Juryo, Midorifuji secures is 7th win and looks poised to make his Makuuchi debut next basho. 

[Kaninoyama]

Terrific win by Takarafuji after being pushed to the edge of the dohyo to secure his kachikoshi. 

[robnplunder]

The clash of Titans was won by Takayasu.  Terunofuji still looks strong to me in defeat.  He may not get the yusho but should put up a good record to keep his Ozeki run going.   

Enho finally won a match.  Had Aoiyama just stood his ground at Tachi-hai, he'd won.  He stepped forward for Enho to grab his knee.  Anyway, I hope Enho gets a few more wins and stay in Makuuchi.

How good is it to be ranked at M17?  Shimanoumi is still in yusho hunt at 8-1.   

It is now Takakeisho's basho.  

[Seiyashi]

10 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

It is now Takakeisho's basho.  

You spoke way too soon...

[Akinomaki]

This basho will again have an NHK yusho rikishi interview at the dohyo. Since March it had been canceled this year. https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202011160000371.html

[Akinomaki]

1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

You spoke way too soon...

Waka's curse is still strong

[robnplunder]

1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

You spoke way too soon...

I tend to contradict myself whenever I predict something.   I am about 50% right (or wrong).

Tobizaru!!!!!!