Chiyotaikai-the truth has finally come out

[Kintamayama]

He hasn't been worth anything for a long time, let alone his rank.. The last Bashos he was lucky to win on most days , dancing on the tawara, and pulling, using his propellors, and all sorts of pathetic stuff unworthy of an Ozeki. Musouyama? At least he goes forward...

He isn't weaker this basho. Everyone is finally on to him. Propellor,pull. Wait for the pull, don't go for it, and walk him out like a child.

I pray he goes 6-9, kadoban, and either shapes up or ships out.

I am ecstatic that his real "quality" has finally been translated to his result.

[AsaMoe]

Well, I think you are a bit unfair. Noone makes so many kk as an ozeki without supreme skill.

Additionally Sumo lives from the broad variety of different styles. And without Chiyotaikai the basho will be less colorful.

On the other hand, when fighting against real good ones, i.e. yokuzuna he regularly failed, in the last matches even pathetic.

[Fujisan]

I must admit,I have been tiring of Taikais less than stellar performances for sometime-

So far in Bench sumo I am 9-3 despite Taikais efforts,I can only guess my score if I had picked Kaio instead-

"The Wolfpack without the Wolf cub is a real possibility next time I think." (Applauding...)

Edited September 23, 2004 by Fujisan

[Jonosuke]

I think Taikai lost his leg strenth. I've seen enough bouts this basho when he was cycling his arms like a maniac to absolute no effect to his opponent.

To have truly effective, you need a lot of power coming from your legs and I think either he is injured somewhere in his legs or lower back. If not, there is not much reason for him to go on as that is the only thing he can do unless he turns to become a Toki.

He used to be able to incredible power coming out of his tachiai. I recall when Takanohama came back from his knee injury and faced him, he had to resort to a henka by stepping aside, figuring he could not take Taikai's tackle right on.

Right now I don't see that power coming out of him and neither his tsupparis showing any so he may be able to trick a few some unsuspecting foes but they will soon catch on. I think Moti is right, Taikai should be thinking of his future and find other ways of winning or leave as he is embarrassing himself now.

[Sasanishiki]

Some of his comments after losing have been rather flippant. There was one about it being another ozeki's fault because he had lost as well. Maybe he is trying to lighten the mood, but you think his energy would be better spent focussing on what to do the next day to improve. I do admire his decision to remain in the basho, even with a bad record, because others have pulled out. Waka did that on a couple of occasions when the yokozuna ranks were thin. I think these top ranks carry a responsibility of fronting up, even if your sumo is not its best. Can't all run away at the sight of a poor record. if you weren't fully up to it then perhpas it would have been better to miss the basho altogether?

[Araiwa]

He isn't weaker this basho. Everyone is finally on to him.

Ah, no! This would be very strange if it was true. Chiyotaikai has mainly two ways of winning: pushing or pulling. This has been his sumo for years, since he came into makuuchi and everyone knows that. That would mean that just by now, all know how to beat him. 1997 he came into makuuchi with his taikai-sumo and just 2004 all know how to deal with it? ;-)

The problem for most was, they could not match up with his strength. Most bouts he won with his tachi-ai and arm power. And with the rythm of the tsuppari, the enemy had no chance to gain momentum. This strenght or the rythm seems to be missing this and the last bashos. Maybe he is on his way down to maegashira already? Takanonami wasn't that old when he lost his ozekirank.

[Kintamayama]

Well, I think you are a bit unfair. Noone makes so many kk as an ozeki without supreme skill.

Additionally Sumo lives from the broad variety of different styles. And without Chiyotaikai the basho will be less colorful.

On the other hand, when fighting against real good ones, i.e. yokuzuna he regularly failed, in the last matches even pathetic.

Supreme skill?? He never had anything remotely resembling "supreme skill". If he did, he would have been Yokozuna by now.

Chiyotaikai of late is anything but colorful, unless bleak grey is counted as colour.

Yes, he used to have power in the past, but now that it's in hiding, he's got a problem.

[Elenrian]

I think the other wrestlers know how to beat him, and how to resist his "tsuppari" (this word is not correst, I guess...). ;-) Now, his technique doesn't work longer for most of his opponents, so he loses very often for an Ozeki... If he had more technics, he could have more differents attacks, but he doesn't. I think he is "stuck"... It will be very difficult to learn new technics at his age, and he hasn't much time, if he wants to stay as Ozeki!!! Anyway, I never liked him... He is veeeeerrryyyy BOOOO-RRING!!! (Sign of disapproval) (Hitting with chair...)

[Zentoryu]

Whats wrong with Chiyo?

Loss of fighting spirit, as evidenced by his comments this basho, and loss of power.

He no longer generates the pushing power needed to support his tsuppari.

Without that power, he can't execute his pulls with any level of effectiveness. He needs the power to shove back and then the quick pull, ala Toki. Without it... well you've seen what happens.

[Kintamayama]

Without that power, he can't execute his pulls with any level of effectiveness. He needs the power to shove back and then the quick pull, ala Toki. Without it... well you've seen what happens.

Plus, the more he does ONLY this, the more it is expected, and the more it is countered. He has come to heavily rely on this.

[Gusoyama]

A look at the Ozeki(and Asashoryu) over the last 2 years. From 7/02 to 7/04(13 bashos), they have had the following totals for wins:

Asashoryu - 159 - 12.23 wins/basho average

Chiyotaikai - 126 - 9.69 wins/basho

Kaio - 108 - 8.3 wins/basho

Musoyama - 83 - 6.38 wins/basho

Tochiazuma - 68 - 5.23 wins/basho

[Kintamayama]

A look at the Ozeki(and Asashoryu) over the last 2 years. From 7/02 to 7/04(13 bashos), they have had the following totals for wins:

Asashoryu - 159 - 12.23 wins/basho average

Chiyotaikai - 126 - 9.69 wins/basho

Kaio - 108 - 8.3 wins/basho

Musoyama - 83 - 6.38 wins/basho

Tochiazuma - 68 - 5.23 wins/basho

Nice stats, but I'm not saying he doesn't win. He's had great records these last few bashos, but anyone who has eyes can see that he was extreeeeemely lucky in many wins. This basho, his luck has run out.

That is the gist of my theory..

[Burainoan]

I think both Kinta and Jonosuke make good points. he is clearly relying too heavily on his "push and pull." he did it to Tamanoshima too early and Tama simply leaned into him and marched him out.

but on the other hand, his tsuki-oshi/tsuppari attack clearly lacks his usual "pop" this basho. he seems to be moving his arms okay, so i don't think it's his elbows, which means that it must be something down lower or in his stance that's preventing his full power from getting through. maybe he needs a lower stance to put a little de-ashi into it....

this basho may be a wash, but hopefully he can fix the problem by November.

[Gusoyama]

A look at the Ozeki(and Asashoryu) over the last 2 years.  From 7/02 to 7/04(13 bashos), they have had the following totals for wins:

Asashoryu - 159 - 12.23 wins/basho average

Chiyotaikai - 126 - 9.69 wins/basho

Kaio - 108 - 8.3 wins/basho

Musoyama - 83 - 6.38 wins/basho

Tochiazuma - 68 - 5.23 wins/basho

Nice stats, but I'm not saying he doesn't win. He's had great records these last few bashos, but anyone who has eyes can see that he was extreeeeemely lucky in many wins. This basho, his luck has run out.

That is the gist of my theory..

I totally agree. And what I don't show is that Wakanosato is third on that list, with 116 wins over the past 13 bashos. I was just putting up the wins for pure statto purposes.

Personally, I think that this is just a bad basho for Wolfie. He'll be back next time with 10. He's lost some speed off the fast ball, but he's still a starter.

[Taka]

A look at the Ozeki(and Asashoryu) over the last 2 years.  From 7/02 to 7/04(13 bashos), they have had the following totals for wins:

Asashoryu - 159 - 12.23 wins/basho average

Chiyotaikai - 126 - 9.69 wins/basho

Kaio - 108 - 8.3 wins/basho

Musoyama - 83 - 6.38 wins/basho

Tochiazuma - 68 - 5.23 wins/basho

Nice stats, but I'm not saying he doesn't win. He's had great records these last few bashos, but anyone who has eyes can see that he was extreeeeemely lucky in many wins. This basho, his luck has run out.

That is the gist of my theory..

A nice example were his bout(s) against Tamanoshima last Basho and the one this basho.

Nagoya:

http://www.banzuke.com/~movies/nagoya2004/...ano_chiyotai.rm

http://www.banzuke.com/~movies/nagoya2004/...no_chiyotai2.rm

Aki:

http://www.banzuke.com/~movies/aki2004/day...ano_chiyotai.rm

[Tadanisakari]

I feel like Taikai has been more predictable this basho than usual. His explosive style of oshi-zumo is a joy to watch when he's in a groove. You might as well give it a name: Taikai-zumo. It disappoints me that he has been so predictable with his tsuppari/hikiotoshi combination in Aki, but I don't think he relied so heavily on this method even as recently as Nagoya.

No one's denying that he's had a pathetic basho, but consider this: winning about ten bouts per basho is nothing to sneeze at. And since the statistic given above is over the course of the past two years, I really don't think you can attribute it to luck. No one gets lucky for two years running.

Also, in Taikai's defense, many of his wins this basho have come not from moving backward, but from moving forward then using his aite's resisting forward momentum as leverage for a hikiotoshi/hatakikomi. I think that it's much more forgivable to see pull sumo when it is set up with strong de-ashi. Remember Kyokushuzan back in Hatsu or Haru of this year? He won with pulls without taking a step forward. That's pathetic sumo. Taikai still tries to push forward, but his leg strength just seems to be lacking in Aki.

At this point, I hope he does go kadoban. I think it will electrify him in Kyushu and I hope to see twelve wins and a jun-yusho for him.

Edited September 23, 2004 by Tadanisakari

[AsaMoe]

Supreme skill?? He never had anything remotely resembling "supreme skill". If he did, he would have been Yokozuna by now.

I will not compare Chiyotaikai with Asashoryu, but being the first Ozeki and second of all qualifies for supreme skill. Not my or your opinion is relevant but results.

Asashoryu - 159 - 12.23 wins/basho average

Chiyotaikai - 126 - 9.69 wins/basho

Kaio - 108 - 8.3 wins/basho

Musoyama - 83 - 6.38 wins/basho

Tochiazuma - 68 - 5.23 wins/basho

Talking of results, I think it is a bit unfair against Tochiazuma, if you also count the bashos in which he was injured.

Chiyotaikai of late is anything but colorful, unless bleak grey is counted as colour.

Maybe I didn't say it, but I do not like Chiyotaikai and I do not like his style. But colorful means many colors, not only the one you like.

Yes, he used to have power in the past, but now that it's in hiding, he's got a problem.

I think, that one bad basho is just ok. I don't see a trend at the moment.

BTW, has anybody ever thought about the possibility, that there is no Ozeki at the end of the year ?

[AsaMoe]

BTW, has anybody ever thought about the possibility, that there is no Ozeki at the end of the year ?

OK, I apologize for this one. I did not read the discussion in the other topic (Oops! )

[QttP]

I think, that one bad basho is just ok. I don't see a trend at the moment.

One bad basho is nothing terrible, but I do see a trend at the moment, and a rather worrysome one for Chiyotaikai. As his fan, I can say that he hasn't pleased me in a long while, in fact the last three basho have been bad, and this is the worst of all.

[Mark Buckton]

To quote a Japanese TV commercial - "I'm lovin' it"

Never been a fan - of him or his Ooyakata - what goes around comes around I guess.

[Guest Guy Caballero]

First-time poster.

I've always been a Chiyotaikai fan, so I'm obviously disappointed at his recent performance. I thought he was a good bet for yokozuna in the past. Now, I'm not so sure. He and Kaio have let many people down many times over the past few years, but that's probably a testement to their quality as ozeki. People just expect more out of them. He may not be yokozuna material, but he's light years ahead of that big joke Musoyama, and he's clearly a notch above Tochiazuma as well.

[Golynohana]

It is sad to see that so many people are glad that Taikai is underachieving this basho.

You don't have to be fan of him like i am, but the fact is that he is one of most original rikishi with his own "chiyotaikai sumo" . If he retires after losing his ozeki rank (God dont let it happen ! :-D ) im sure everybody will be missing him in Sumo.

But im sure his weakness is only in this basho, and, as someone have mentioned before, Taikai was always good when he was kadoban.

[Kintamayama]

Taikai was always good when he was kadoban.

Says it all. An Ozeki.

I'm not glad he's underachieving. I'm glad his actual record finally caught up with his performance of late. Maybe this will be some sort of wake-up call for him, and we'll get to see the "Chiyotaikai-sumo" some of you are mentioning, and that is nowhere to be seen. His 12/13 wins of late were not of Chiyotaikai caliber, to say the least. But as long as he was racking up them wins , he didn't seem to mind.

I also sense the same kind of complacency with Asa this basho. It could very well be good for him to not get the yusho this time around. His overall performance this basho is full of too many "dangerous" matches against guys he would normally send into orbit in seconds.

Edited September 23, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Guest Guy Caballero]

It is sad to see that so many people are glad that Taikai is underachieving this basho.

You don't have to be fan of him like i am, but the fact is that he is one of most original rikishi with his own "chiyotaikai sumo" . If he retires after losing his ozeki rank (God dont let it happen ! :-D ) im sure everybody will be missing him in Sumo.

But im sure his weakness is only in this basho, and, as someone have mentioned before, Taikai was always good when he was kadoban.

I agree. He's been as steady as anyone for a while now, and his absence would be noticeable. At least Kaio looks to be back on track now.

[Kintamayama]

No one's denying that he's had a pathetic basho, but consider this: winning about ten bouts per basho is nothing to sneeze at.  And since the statistic given above is over the course of the past two years, I really don't think you can attribute it to luck.  No one gets lucky for two years running.

If you look closely, most of us are focusing on his last three under-par bashos, where he was extremely lucky time and time again. And, again,I am talking about the quality of his sumo, not the win/loss records, which of course are what count in the long run etc. etc..

Edited September 23, 2004 by Kintamayama