Haru Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

[since_94]

When I first joined this forum, the average post was usually about six paragraphs long. Posts are mostly much shorter now. I appreciate the brevity. Long or short, it's easy enough to skip over posts/posters one doesn't want to read and get what one wants out of the banter.

[Eikokurai]

7 minutes ago, since_94 said:

When I first joined this forum, the average post was usually about six paragraphs long. Posts are mostly much shorter now. I appreciate the brevity. Long or short, it's easy enough to skip over posts/posters one doesn't want to read and get what one wants out of the banter.

TL; DR 

[since_94]

4 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

TL; DR 

Had to google that, but yeah. Conciseness is a virtue.

[Jakusotsu]

10 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Overall though, this forum is well managed by the moderators.   Kudos to them.

Thanks for the praise, but we also have the members to thank for keeping the forum civilized all by themselves most of the time, so our effort is actually neglectable.

[lackmaker]

I'm sure you meant negligible.

And I'll thank you for your good work.

Edited March 26, 2019 by lackmaker
Extra

[Morty]

The thing I love about this forum is the civility and the fact that even when people disagree or argue they do so without (usually) resorting to ad hominem attacks. People always argue the issues. There is virtually no bad language and people respect each other (in general) and there is no trolling. New members are generally welcomed and treated with respect. I have a couple of people on my ignore list but only a couple, and it took a while before I decided to press that button. There is clearly a gulf of knowledge between a few hoary older members and the newer majority, and then there are lots in the middle who know some stuff but not everything, but generally those with knowledge don't hold it against those of us without. I give regular (about once every two months for about 20 days) thanks to the folk who are so dedicated to sumo that they go out of their way to provide videos, info, other content, gossip, database interpretation, statistical analysis, banzuke interpretation, maintain the database, etc, that we the less dedicated can share and use to accentuate our enjoyment of sumo. This is a rare and fantastic on-line space and we are lucky to have it. It is a pleasure to be part of this on-line community and to be able to share something I love with other people - congratulations people we are doing a great job and proving that not all on-line communication is negative. Well done!

[RabidJohn]

7 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

I'm sure you meant negligible.

Most of us (probably) know that, but does it need highlighting on a forum where English is not the first language for a significant number of members?

In an effort not to end up on Asojima's ignore list or unnecessarily wind up Robnplunder, I ignore typos, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors - unless they are really funny, like the time Moti started a thread titled "Preparation of them asses".

---

It's pure speculation on my part, but I've been wondering if Hakuho pushed (or pulled) hard enough to hurt himself not so much because he wanted a zensho, but because he did not want to face beast-mode Ichinojo in a play-off. Either way, I believe he's buggered his chances of winning the first honbasho of the new era. BTW, has the next era been given a name yet?

---

Sad to see Tochinoshin lose his rank, but then I believe he was extraordinarily lucky to stay healthy just long enough to put in his record-equalling ozeki run. I can't see him managing 10 wins next time, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong (just like I was proven wrong about Takakeisho being too short to ever make ozeki). I hope he calls it a day, gets back to his wife in Georgia, and enjoys seeing his kid(s) grow up.

---

Massive congratulations to Takakeisho. He's done the really hard part now. If he can only learn some effective defence when someone cops a hold of his mawashi, I wouldn't rule out his becoming one of the shortest guys ever to wear the rope...

[RabidJohn]

I second what Morty said^.

Edited March 26, 2019 by RabidJohn

[Eikokurai]

13 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

BTW, has the next era been given a name yet?

I looked earlier and couldn’t find one, so I guess not. Perhaps it’s tradition not to name a new era until the old one has finished or something.

[Furuya]

The new era's name will be announced on Monday April 1st, which seems poor timing from my perspective, but probably not a Japanese one. :D

[Jakusotsu]

1 hour ago, lackmaker said:

I'm sure you meant negligible.

Right.

[Gerfaut]

40 minutes ago, Morty said:

The thing I love about this forum is the civility and the fact that even when people disagree or argue they do so without (usually) resorting to ad hominem attacks. People always argue the issues. There is virtually no bad language and people respect each other (in general) and there is no trolling. New members are generally welcomed and treated with respect. I have a couple of people on my ignore list but only a couple, and it took a while before I decided to press that button. There is clearly a gulf of knowledge between a few hoary older members and the newer majority, and then there are lots in the middle who know some stuff but not everything, but generally those with knowledge don't hold it against those of us without. I give regular (about once every two months for about 20 days) thanks to the folk who are so dedicated to sumo that they go out of their way to provide videos, info, other content, gossip, database interpretation, statistical analysis, banzuke interpretation, maintain the database, etc, that we the less dedicated can share and use to accentuate our enjoyment of sumo. This is a rare and fantastic on-line space and we are lucky to have it. It is a pleasure to be part of this on-line community and to be able to share something I love with other people - congratulations people we are doing a great job and proving that not all on-line communication is negative. Well done!

Hello everyone,

I created my account just to answer to this thread. I've been reading this forum for a year or so, being a very recent sumo fan. But I just wanted to say that I totally agree with the statement above. Please all keep participating to this forum and post news in English for those who can't read japanese.

Thanks to the older members for sharing their knowledge.

Best regards from France

[lackmaker]

45 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Most of us (probably) know that, but does it need highlighting on a forum where English is not the first language for a significant number of members?

In an effort not to end up on Asojima's ignore list or unnecessarily wind up Robnplunder, I ignore typos, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors - unless they are really funny, like the time Moti started a thread titled "Preparation of them asses".

I did consider that but thought it worth pointing out as the word used means something quite different and when English isn't the first language some folk might not realise. The "I'm sure you meant" was a recognition that it was likely a typo.

[robnplunder]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

It's pure speculation on my part, but I've been wondering if Hakuho pushed (or pulled) hard enough to hurt himself not so much because he wanted a zensho, but because he did not want to face beast-mode Ichinojo in a play-off. Either way, I believe he's buggered his chances of winning the first honbasho of the new era. BTW, has the next era been given a name yet?

Your speculation has merit & my belief that Hak is just a competitive guy (like Tiger Wood in golf). 

[Amamaniac]

Which Makuuchi newcomer has the most potential? (based on initial impressions)

Here is a list of the rikishi who have been in the Top Division for a year or less (as per March 2019 banzuke):

1) Daishoho; 2) Kotoeko; 3) Ishiura; 4) Toyoshima; 5) Terutsuyoshi; 6) Tomokaze; 7) Meisei; 8) Yago; 9) Onosho

Some of the above wrestlers have been in the Top Division perviously, however, they have dropped down to the lower divisions in recent times.  Several of them will probably be dropping out of the Top Division for the Summer Tourney.  The possibility of current injuries aside, are any of these men going to be a future mover-and-shaker?  

I like Tomokaze and Meisei.  But at the end of the day, I can't get overly excited about either of them.  And that is part of the problem in my mind.  

While I respect all wrestlers who fight in ozumo, I feel as though there is a vacuum of "Yokozuna"-worthy talent in the new generation(s) of sumo.  Obviously, such talent can develop over time, but you can usually spot real talent early on.  Takakeisho is about the only relative newcomer who has proven himself.  I am sincerely impressed with his determination and oshizumo skills, but I honestly don't see him being able to become the next Yokozuna...  So where is the next star?

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Eikokurai]

24 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Which Makuuchi newcomer has the most potential? (based on initial impressions)

Here is a list of the rikishi who have been in the Top Division for a year or less (as per March 2019 banzuke):

1) Daishoho; 2) Kotoeko; 3) Ishiura; 4) Toyoshima; 5) Terutsuyoshi; 6) Tomokaze; 7) Meisei; 8) Yago; 9) Onosho

Some of the above wrestlers have been in the Top Division perviously, however, they have dropped down to the lower divisions in recent times.  Several of them will probably be dropping out of the Top Division for the Summer Tourney.  The possibility of current injuries aside, are any of these men going to be a future mover-and-shaker?  

I like Tomokaze and Meisei.  But at the end of the day, I can't get overly excited about either of them.  And that is part of the problem in my mind.  

While I respect all wrestlers who fight in ozumo, I feel as though there is a vacuum of "Yokozuna"-worthy talent in the new generation(s) of sumo.  Obviously, such talent can develop over time, but you can usually spot real talent early on.  Takakeisho is about the only relative newcomer who has proven himself.  I am sincerely impressed with his determination and oshizumo skills, but I honestly don't see him being able to become the next Yokozuna...  So where is the next star?

 

Ishiura has spent 12 basho in makuuchi, making his debut in November 2016. He’s 29 already, as hard as it may be to believe.

From the others, I’ve quite liked the look of Meisei and Kotoeko at times. Tomokaze is obviously doing well but I’ve not seen enough of him to judge, tbh. I liked Yago in January, less so in March. He wrestles a little awkwardly, sort of tight, if that makes sense. I don’t see much agility or presence of mind there, though he possesses plenty of strength. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Amamaniac]

30 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

From the others, I’ve quite liked the look of Meisei and Kotoeko at times. Tomokaze is obviously doing well but I’ve not seen enough of him to judge, tbh. I liked Yago in January, less so in March. He wrestles a little awkwardly, sort of tight, if that makes sense. I don’t see much agility or presence of mind there, though he possesses plenty of strength. 

I concur with you.  But here's what I see.  Meisei and Kotoeko have darn good agility and pretty good technique.  The way Meisei lost to Endo on the final day, however, proved that he lacks experience.  As for Kotoeko, he walked away with an MK.  The main sticking point in my mind is that neither guy has the essential weight (yet?), which in this day and age is a pretty important determining factor.  For that reason, I became a little excited about Tomokaze in his Makuuchi debut, because he has the theoretical weight-requirement already, and his interviews seemed to suggest he has the right demeanour and attitude to do well in professional sumo.  On top of that, how many other wrestlers can claim to have made it up to the Top Division in just 10 tournaments with consecutive KKs and 3 yushos?  In my mind, he is definitely one to watch.  But still, I am not ready to claim he will be a future Yokozuna.

[Akōgyokuseki]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

While I respect all wrestlers who fight in ozumo, I feel as though there is a vacuum of "Yokozuna"-worthy talent in the new generation(s) of sumo.  Obviously, such talent can develop over time, but you can usually spot real talent early on.  Takakeisho is about the only relative newcomer who has proven himself.  I am sincerely impressed with his determination and oshizumo skills, but I honestly don't see him being able to become the next Yokozuna...  So where is the next star?

Araiso oyakata must have anticipated your post. In his column he mentions Takakeisho a fair bit, specifically saying he looks a strong contender for promotion to Yokozuna one day.

Kise (sorry, can't help it) picked up on his last day bout against Tochinoshin as a strand out performance.
He also gave praise to the younger rikishi, but he didn't name anyone in particular amongst them.

There were also nods of approval for the performances of both remaining Ozeki and Ichinojo. But other than that, most of his praise was for Takakeisho.
So it might seem Kise thinks he's the only one amongst them to shine brightest at the moment.

It's an interesting read...and it's cute how he uses the term 'drama' to describe the goings on in the basho. Kise sums up the last basho of the Heisei era

 

[Amamaniac]

1 hour ago, Akōgyokuseki said:

Araiso oyakata must have anticipated your post. In his column he mentions Takakeisho a fair bit, specifically saying he looks a strong contender for promotion to Yokozuna one day.

Kise (sorry, can't help it) picked up on his last day bout against Tochinoshin as a strand out performance.
He also gave praise to the younger rikishi, but he didn't name anyone in particular amongst them.

There were also nods of approval for the performances of both remaining Ozeki and Ichinojo. But other than that, most of his praise was for Takakeisho.
So it might seem Kise thinks he's the only one amongst them to shine brightest at the moment.

It's an interesting read...and it's cute how he uses the term 'drama' to describe the goings on in the basho.

Most interesting.  Thanks for the summary (and link). 

The problem I have with Takakeisho becoming a Yokozuna is that, due primarily to his body type (short in stature with short arms), I really don't see him ever being able to develop a strong yotsuzumo game.  During the latest tournament, there was some discussion among the English commentators that there have been Yokozunas in the past who were oshizumo specialists.  Frankly, I find that a little hard to believe (but then, I don't know much about all 72 Yokozunas).  My limited impression, however, is that the Yokozuna ideal is fighting yotsuzumo, never backing up, and winning by yorikiri the majority of times.  Will Takakeisho ever match that ideal?  I seriously doubt so.  There have, however, been a number of Ozekis who were oshizumo specialists, and so I think Takakeisho will have a fine Ozeki career.

I will, however, concede one thing.  Unless there is some young talent to challenge the young Takakeisho, Takakeisho could potentially make minced meat out of the current (older generation) elite.  Barring any new obstacles, Takakeisho may just be in the right place at the right time, and he may just scrape together the necessary two straight yusho to get that promotion to Yokozuna.  

The wild card in my view is Ichinojo.  He has rediscovered his best weapon: hatakikomi.  He used it perfectly against six opponents in the latest tournament, and Takakeisho was one of them.  Sadly, Ichinojo will probably be pressured to stop using that very technique.  It is bad for sumo, in a way.  Aside from Hakuho (who is a big question mark going forward), there are essentially three Top Division wrestlers who can consistently get in Takakeisho's way: Goeido, Mitakeumi, and Ichinojo 2.0.  So maybe, just maybe, that is not enough to stop him (i.e. Takakeisho).

P.S., Kise raving about Takakeisho must have hurt Takayasu's confidence.  Or was Kise trying to inspire Takayasu to try harder?

Edited March 26, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Jakusotsu]

22 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

During the latest tournament, there was some discussion among the English commentators that there have been Yokozunas in the past who were oshizumo specialists.  Frankly, I find that a little hard to believe (but then, I don't know much about all 72 Yokozunas).  My limited impression, however, is that the Yokozuna ideal is fighting yotsuzumo, never backing up, and winning by yorikiri the majority of times.

Akebono was the pinnacle of oshi, but of course he couldn't have been any more different than Takakeisho in size.

[Eikokurai]

I think Takayasu is another one who can get in Takakeisho’s way. Their current H2H record is 6-3 in Takayasu’s favour, all in the last nine tournaments. Takayasu has one of sumo’s most explosive tachiai, which helps to counter Takakeisho’s own (one of his mean weapons) and Takayasu also has a decent belt game where he’s obviously at an advantage over Short Round.

[Rainoyama]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Which Makuuchi newcomer has the most potential? (based on initial impressions)

Here is a list of the rikishi who have been in the Top Division for a year or less (as per March 2019 banzuke):

1) Daishoho; 2) Kotoeko; 3) Ishiura; 4) Toyoshima; 5) Terutsuyoshi; 6) Tomokaze; 7) Meisei; 8) Yago; 9) Onosho

Some of the above wrestlers have been in the Top Division perviously, however, they have dropped down to the lower divisions in recent times.  Several of them will probably be dropping out of the Top Division for the Summer Tourney.  The possibility of current injuries aside, are any of these men going to be a future mover-and-shaker?  

I like Tomokaze and Meisei.  But at the end of the day, I can't get overly excited about either of them.  And that is part of the problem in my mind.  

While I respect all wrestlers who fight in ozumo, I feel as though there is a vacuum of "Yokozuna"-worthy talent in the new generation(s) of sumo.  Obviously, such talent can develop over time, but you can usually spot real talent early on.  Takakeisho is about the only relative newcomer who has proven himself.  I am sincerely impressed with his determination and oshizumo skills, but I honestly don't see him being able to become the next Yokozuna...  So where is the next star?

 

Onosho is still the highest on my list despite his "dissapointing" performances of late. Let's not forget he is just 22, 11 basho in makuuchi, 5 double digit KK, 2 basho as a komusubi, 3 kanto sho, a kinboshi (against Harumafuji). He has not been injury free though and knee problems have been holding him back. He is very similar to Takakeisho so he's been compared to him a lot and that's probably what lead to a lot of disappointment. Let's also not forget how special Takakeisho is, becoming Ozeki at 22 is not common at all. Onosho has a good oshi attack and combines it to yori sometimes which makes his sumo a little bit more versatile than Takakeisho's but what makes all the difference imo is that his balance is not great yet (unlike Takakeisho's), Takakeisho understands placement and angles much better, and is much more patient and has great mental strength which is quite impressive for a 22 years old. If Onosho's knees gets better and he can improve his patience and balance he will be sanyaku regular and maybe ozeki like Takakeisho one day.

Meisei hasn't been as shiny, quite young too (23) no shiny double digits, no special prices but his sumo is very versatile and his climb has been slow but very steady, I'm not sure if he has ozeki potential but I think he can become joi/sanyaku regular

Tomokaze (23) never MK, 9 win as M13 for his first basho, very impressive, big body, good oshi and Takekaze taught him hatakikomi to add to his arsenal, I'd like to see more of him to see if he can imagine him becomig ozeki but I'd say joi/Sanyaku regular potential for now.

His heyamate Yago (24)  has great size, great body, his yori sumo has been effective (one double digit Kanto sho for his debut) but he still looks very very raw still (just his 12th basho since entering sumo though) not great athleticism, and his giving up way too soon sometimes. I think he is good enough for makuuchi but I don't see him become a very good Yori specialist like Kisenosato or Kotoshogiku. He'll reach sanyaku probably but from what I've seen of him so far I think he'll stay a mid Makuuchi most of his career.

Daishoho (24) same as Yago, great size and body, maybe more athletic and a bit more technically gifted probably yet Yago has looked better than him so far, I need to see more but has for now I think he's good enough to be makuuchi regular, may reach sanyaku but will stay in the middle of the pack.

Terutsuyoshi (24) technically gifted but short and light, I think he'll be like Ishiura and never climb to high because of that. Same for Kotoeko.

As for the older guys Ishiura (29), Toyonoshima (35) I don't think we'll discover more about them. Ishiura may have a few good basho in makuuchi left and climb to M8 like he did once buy I believe he'll continue to alternate between low M and Juryo. Incredible come back from Toyonoshima, maybe he'll manage to come back to Makuuchi and do a bit better but at 35 his best sumo is way behind him. He had a great career though and I like him a lot.

 

 

[ryafuji]

6 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

In an effort not to end up on Asojima's ignore list or unnecessarily wind up Robnplunder, I ignore typos, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors - unless they are really funny, like the time Moti started a thread titled "Preparation of them asses".

-

That was deliberate, surely?

[ryafuji]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

 During the latest tournament, there was some discussion among the English commentators that there have been Yokozunas in the past who were oshizumo specialists.  Frankly, I find that a little hard to believe (but then, I don't know much about all 72 Yokozunas).

In addition to Akebono there was also Hokutoumi, who was closer to Takakeisho in size. He won 8 yusho and was mainly an oshi specialist (his trademark was nodowa).

[Amamaniac]

1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

Akebono was the pinnacle of oshi, but of course he couldn't have been any more different than Takakeisho in size.

Yes, I thought of him briefly.  But then, I had this impression that he was also able to use his long reach to exact nage-throws.  I don't see Takakeisho ever doing that.  But you are right, of course.  He was better known for his oshizumo.