A few questions to you guys about Yokozuna

[Bugman]

1.  Do you feel a basho needs a Yokozuna participating in it, for it to feel 'complete'?

2.  Do you think a rikishi should become a Yokozuna based on performance against peers, or based on how good Yokozuna's of the past were?  (or mixture of)

3.  Is it currently too hard or to easy to become a Yokozuna in your opinion?

4.  In many cultures, (including Japan as far as i'm aware), trying your best to the bitter end in a sport is the admirable thing to do, (think crossing a finishing line 10 hours after the last guy went home, cos you sprained your ankle), so why do Yokozuna's leave a tournament half-way so often, when it goes badly for them?

5.  If you were charged with naming a new rank above Yokozuna, what would you call it?

Thanks :)

Edited December 3, 2018 by Bugman
Spelling

[Sue]

1. No.

2. There's no other way to measure someone's performance -- short of inventing a time machine, there's no way to get a modern rikishi to face off against a Yokozuna from the past, in their prime.

3. No.

4. Because they're not allowed to finish makekoshi without retiring, and they still have good sumo ahead of them.

5. Yokozuna is meant to be the top rank, so this question is meaningless.

[sekitori]

1 hour ago, Bugman said:

5.  If you were charged with naming a new rank above Yokozuna, what would you call it? 

 

The Elite 20+. Only Hakuho, Taiho, Chiyonofuji, Asashoryu, and Takanohana II would qualify.

Edited December 3, 2018 by sekitori

[Akinomaki]

45 minutes ago, sekitori said:

The Elite 20+. Only Hakuho, Taiho, Chiyonofuji, Asashoryu, and Takanohana II would qualify.

And what did Kitanoumi do to not qualify?

[Sue]

2 hours ago, Bugman said:

5.  If you were charged with naming a new rank above Yokozuna, what would you call it?

Come to think of it, "dai-Yokozuna" is already in use as a de facto term for Yokozuna with 10+ yusho. It's not a rank (and probably shouldn't be), but it's a thing.

[sekitori]

49 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

And what did Kitanoumi do to not qualify?

He didn't come to my forgetful mind when I made up the list.   I therefore am renaming the list to "The Six Elite 20+".

Wajima was one of my favorites but unfortunately, "only" 14 yushos doesn't qualify. Maybe the next list should be called "The Outstanding 10 and more". But since I also like Harumafuji and he was one yusho short of that number, I'll  change  it to "The Outstanding 9 and more".

Edited December 3, 2018 by sekitori

[mikawa]

1.  No

2.  Against peers, because Magnus Carlsen shouldn't have to match Kasparov in his prime if he wants to become World Chess Champion

3.  It's not too hard at the moment, with Hakuho not as dominant as he used to be. It's just that no one has been able to string together 2 Yusho or equivalent results

4.  A makekoshi would be a stain on a Yokozuna's career in my opinion. Ozeki are expected to get a kachikoshi at least every other tournament, so Yokozuna should be getting kachikoshi every tournament

5.  Dai-Yokozuna (stating the obvious I know)

[Dapeng]

1 hour ago, sekitori said:

He didn't come to my forgetful mind when I made up the list.   I therefore am renaming the list to "The Six Elite 20+".

Wajima was one of my favorites but unfortunately, "only" 14 yushos doesn't qualify. Maybe the next list should be called "The Outstanding 10 and more". But since I also like Harumafuji and he was one yusho short of that number, I'll  change  it to "The Outstanding 9 and more".

Wajima was the seventh with 14 yusho. Takanohana is the sixth with 22 yusho. I think "The Six Elite 20+" is a more proper saying.

After Wajima, Musashimaru 12 yusho, Akebono 11 yusho, Kitanofuji 10 yusho, etc.  

[Dapeng]

Yokozuna category: 

GOAT: Hakuho, Futabayama (honorably mentioned). 

Super: Taiho, Chiyonofuji. (more than 30 yusho).

Excellent: Asashoryu, Kitanoumi, Takanohana. (more than 20 yusho)

Good: Wajima, Musashimaru, Akebono, Tachiyama, Kitanofuji, Tochinishiki, Wakanohana I, Tsunenohana. (More than 10 yusho)

Decent: those with more than 5 and less than 10 yusho. 

[Shinrei]

1) This distant observer says Nope (a honbasho does not require a yokozuna to feel complete to me). I might have a different opinion if I was there in person frequently.

2) I don't know how the latter (yokozuna candidate's performance begin quantitatively compared to those of past yokozuna) could be done. At any given rank below ozeki, those rikishi are, ostensibly, the best at-that-time based on the records from previous honbasho.

However, consider future yokozuna. Many years could pass for before one is as superlative as Hakuho. Yet, those future rikishi will still be yokozuna and, one can hope, fill that role well.

3) Neither. I think the path to yokozuna is designed to be just difficult enough with elements of both prowess (wins) and carriage (hinkaku).

4) Tradition.

5) I would first consult with those who are much deeper into sumo!

[yorikiried by fate]

5 hours ago, Bugman said:

1.  Do you feel a basho needs a Yokozuna participating in it, for it to feel 'complete'?

2.  Do you think a rikishi should become a Yokozuna based on performance against peers, or based on how good Yokozuna's of the past were?  (or mixture of)

3.  Is it currently too hard or to easy to become a Yokozuna in your opinion?

4.  In many cultures, (including Japan as far as i'm aware), trying your best to the bitter end in a sport is the admirable thing to do, (think crossing a finishing line 10 hours after the last guy went home, cos you sprained your ankle), so why do Yokozuna's leave a tournament half-way so often, when it goes badly for them?

5.  If you were charged with naming a new rank above Yokozuna, what would you call it?

Thanks :)

I was thinking about smartassing one-liners, but I am tired and thus will try to be accommodating.

1. Much more important than having a Yokozuna (Kisenosato!) is to have at least a solid regular top-performer (proper Ozeki, a.k.a. not-Goeido) to keep any upstarts in check. A crazy Maegashira/Sanyaku challenge once in a while might be exiting, but you wouldn't like to see the current times (last gasps of the old top-dogs) to be the norm.

2. Peers. The best guy is the one who beats the others more often. Beyond that lies How-would-in-his-prime-Taiho-fare-against-Mechgodzilla-territory...

3. Not currently but soon the door will open a little, as the most dominant figures of the past will move out.

4. You know the answer. It doesn't go well with the status of the rank. Nevertheless, I admire Onokuni's decision back then.

5. Xnjnytmz

Edited December 3, 2018 by yorikiried by fate
noob-link added

[Yamanashi]

1.   I don’t know; I haven’t experienced enough basho yet.

2.   Performance against peers; impossible to objectively judge the other.

3.   Well, I think it’s harder to become a Yokozuna, but easier to stay a Yokozuna.  Are those related?

4.   a) because the Yokozuna isn’t a rank (like Ozeki), it’s a title (like Pope or King).  A losing Yokozuna is an abomination; that’s why the occasional fiction about injuries causing the kyujo; b) it’s expensive to hand out career-long kinboshi ten times a basho.

5.  Dai-Yokozuna is pretty good; I don’t know enough Japanese to come up with a creative suggestion.

[Eikokurai]

教皇綱

Kyokozuna (Pope with a rope)

Edited December 4, 2018 by Eikokurai

[Kuroyama]

6 hours ago, Bugman said:

Do you think a rikishi should become a Yokozuna based on performance against peers, or based on how good Yokozuna's of the past were?  (or mixture of) 

How exactly would the latter work exactly? We only have some idea of how good yokozuna of the past were by how well they performed against THEIR peers.

[Churaumi]

You can only compete against who shows up. 

I’m pretty sure Hakuho could beat legendary rikishi like Raiden or Tanikaze, what with them being dead and all.

[Kishinoyama]

1. No

2. Current rikishi

3. Just right

4. That is one of the 'perks' of being a Yokozuna 

5. Dai-Yokozuna works for me. The best of the best.

[Otokonoyama]

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

教皇綱

Kyokozuna (Pope zuna)

Otherwise known as Rope on a Pope! 

[Eikokurai]

Just now, Otokonoyama said:

Otherwise known as Rope on a Pope! 

Your timing is eerie. I literally just edited that to 'Pope with a rope'. Now it looks like I stole your joke.

[Bumpkin]

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

教皇綱

Kyokozuna (Pope with a rope)

Does "Kyuko" translate as "Pope"?

[Eikokurai]

1 minute ago, Bumpkin said:

Does "Kyuko" translate as "Pope"?

'Kyōkō' does, with the long vowels. Literally 'teaching/faith + emperor'.

[Otokonoyama]

8 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Your timing is eerie. I literally just edited that to 'Pope with a rope'. Now it looks like I stole your joke.

Younger lads n' lasses may not remember the olden days.

[Eikokurai]

10 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

Younger lads n' lasses may not remember the olden days.

Haha. I’ve only heard of those from American TV references. The pope isn’t big where I’m from. Nor is soap for that matter.

[itchyknee]

9 hours ago, Bugman said:

1.  Do you feel a basho needs a Yokozuna participating in it, for it to feel 'complete'?

2.  Do you think a rikishi should become a Yokozuna based on performance against peers, or based on how good Yokozuna's of the past were?  (or mixture of)

3.  Is it currently too hard or to easy to become a Yokozuna in your opinion?

4.  In many cultures, (including Japan as far as i'm aware), trying your best to the bitter end in a sport is the admirable thing to do, (think crossing a finishing line 10 hours after the last guy went home, cos you sprained your ankle), so why do Yokozuna's leave a tournament half-way so often, when it goes badly for them? 

5.  If you were charged with naming a new rank above Yokozuna, what would you call it?

Thanks :)

1) No, but I only watch maybe 3 - 15 matches per tournament, I'm more here for the rankings tables and promotions/demotions, and those go up and down regardless (in fact absence of Yoks helps).

2) Performance against peers.  The point of Yokozuna is that this is a rikishi who can act as a 'wide rope' blocking the regular maegashira from championships.  If a wrestler demonstrates the ability to block others from championships (by "regularly" winning those championships themselves), then they've got what it takes.

3) I think two wins within three tournaments should be enough to gain the rank, especially when a win and Jun-yusho or Yusho-doten in two is good enough.

4) See my answer to #2, the second sentence.  This is the purpose of a yokozuna, and there's no benefit to driving them to a forced retirement if they've still got this ability in them.

5) Dai-yokozuna is fine.  Though I'd define it as a Yokozuna who habitually blocks other yokozuna and ozeki from championships, not just as one who gets X number of wins (e.g. if a yokozuna wins 5 in a row with other yoks and ozeki competing, but then dies tragically, they should still qualify for a Dai - those four wrestlers ranked as super or GOAT in Dapeng's classification meet this requirement, as do Asashoryu and Kitanoumi, as well as some of the greats of the two basho per year era).

5 hours ago, Dapeng said:

Yokozuna category: 

GOAT: Hakuho, Futabayama (honorably mentioned). 

Super: Taiho, Chiyonofuji. (more than 30 yusho).

Excellent: Asashoryu, Kitanoumi, Takanohana. (more than 20 yusho)

Good: Wajima, Musashimaru, Akebono, Tachiyama, Kitanofuji, Tochinishiki, Wakanohana I, Tsunenohana. (More than 10 yusho)

Decent: those with more than 5 and less than 10 yusho. 

People like Asashoryu and Harumafuji who miss the cutoff for a higher classification due to being effectively kicked out for bad behavior should get an asterisk, or a "Super-excellent" and "Good-decent" classification, respectively.

[Eikokurai]

3 hours ago, Churaumi said:

You can only compete against who shows up. 

I’m pretty sure Hakuho could beat legendary rikishi like Raiden or Tanikaze, what with them being dead and all.

This is why we need a proper sumo video game with an option to battle celebrated rikishi of different eras against one another.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Eikokurai

[rhyen]

27 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

This is why we need a proper sumo video game with an option to battle celebrated rikishi of different eras against one another.

https://itunes.apple.com/jp/app/大相撲ごっつぁんバトル/id1204109283?l=en&mt=8

finishing in January/February. You can try to play the original web/Hinata version in Japan only that has all the Yokozuna & Raiden.