Basho Talk Natsu 2018 (SPOILERS)

[Kaninoyama]

11 hours ago, since_94 said:

I’ve sat in box seats before but only in the mornings for the lower division matches, when no one is checking tickets! I’ve certainly never been as close as 6th row though, for fear of being caught out and embarrassed at being told to leave. I can imagine how awesome it must be to watch top division rikishi do battle up close. Maybe next time I will push my luck and try to get closer when the Kokugikan is mostly empty

There's typically a security guard stationed at the bottom of the stairway leading to the seating below the box seats who checks tickets, but as you mention there are plenty of fans who take the liberty of enjoying the early action from vacant box seats. If you really want to take a shot at the front seating, I would hit the empty box seats early, and then progressively move lower down from the middle, from which you can probably steal some time at the very front until the actual ticket holders come, which is often quite late. In fact, on Day 3, the person to the left of me arrived at around 5:00 and the one to the right of me around 5:30 (!), and likewise, a couple of the box seats behind me remained empty until quite late in the day, so if you get lucky you may be able to enjoy the action down there pretty deep into the card. 

 

[Morty]

5 hours ago, Jabbamaru said:

Im not a henka hater like many of you fellas but i just love to see Giku reading one finally! Nice day, some Very entertaining bouts!

 

 

I'm not a henka hater either - in fact I love seeing a good henka come off.

[Eikokurai]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

I'm not a henka hater either - in fact I love seeing a good henka come off.

Nothing wrong with henka per de, but there are rikishi who overuse it (Ishiura) and those who are hypocrites about it (Chiyoshoma). Used sparingly, it’s a valid tactic.

[Kuroyama]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

I'm not a henka hater either - in fact I love seeing a good henka come off.

Lots of folks hate them. Can't quite figure out why, myself. It's actually not easy to pull one off, and most of the time a sekitori-rank wrestler should be able to cope with it.

[Kuroyama]

7 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Nothing wrong with henka per de, but there are rikishi who overuse it (Ishiura) and those who are hypocrites about it (Chiyoshoma). Used sparingly, it’s a valid tactic.

A rikishi like Ishiura ought to use it a lot. He's smaller, and is easily overwhelmed by an opponent of even average (for sumo) size. It becomes something of a cat & mouse game to figure out if he is or isn't going to do it any given bout. When he doesn't, it can be just as surprising as when he does.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Kuroyama

[Eikokurai]

1 minute ago, Kuroyama said:

A rikishi like Ishiura ought to use it a lot. He's smaller, and is easily overwhelmed by an opponent of even average (for sumo) size. It becomes something of a cat & mouse game to figure out if he is or isn't going to do it any given bout. When he doesn't, it can be just as surprising as when he does.

He uses it so often it’s barely a game anymore. I think it’s also a cop out to say he should use it just because he isn’t big. Other smaller rikishi throughout sumo history developed a range of techniques for compensating for their lack of size. Harumafuji was hardly the biggest man in the world but rarely backed out of a tachi-ai. Maybe Ishiura just isn’t that talented a wrestler.

[Kuroyama]

40 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

He uses it so often it’s barely a game anymore. I think it’s also a cop out to say he should use it just because he isn’t big. Other smaller rikishi throughout sumo history developed a range of techniques for compensating for their lack of size. Harumafuji was hardly the biggest man in the world but rarely backed out of a tachi-ai. Maybe Ishiura just isn’t that talented a wrestler.

Oh, come on. He hasn't been retired that long that people should forget already. What about all the complaints about Harumafuji's "HNH"? He had simply developed a method of sidestepping after a token initial contact, but it was still a henka for all intents and purposes.

Yes, many smaller rikishi had a variety of techniques for dealing with larger opponents, and perhaps Ishiura should develop a sounder strategy for using it. It's not as if he needs it. I notice that if he can get low down with his head at or below his opponents chest and with left inside grip he wins more often than not. I suspect many of his henkas are as much an attempt to get that grip as soon as possible, as to avoid contact entirely. So what? Mainoumi isn't remembered for henkas, but he must have done it often enough that opponents were very wary of it, and he ended up with a tachi-ai like this not too infrequently: https://youtu.be/_11F-ud0jGQ

 

[Eikokurai]

3 minutes ago, Kuroyama said:

Oh, come on. He hasn't been retired that long that people should forget already. What about all the complaints about Harumafuji's "HNH"? He had simply developed a method of sidestepping after a token initial contact, but it was still a henka for all intents and purposes.

Yes, many smaller rikishi had a variety of techniques for dealing with larger opponents, and perhaps Ishiura should develop a sounder strategy for using it. It's not as if he needs it. I notice that if he can get low down with his head at or below his opponents chest and with left inside grip he wins more often than not. I suspect many of his henkas are as much an attempt to get that grip as soon as possible, as to avoid contact entirely. So what? Mainoumi isn't remembered for henkas, but he must have done it often enough that opponents were very wary of it, and he ended up with a tachi-ai like this not too infrequently: https://youtu.be/_11F-ud0jGQ

 

Harumafuji’s HNH’s still involves actual contact. They’re not even close to comparable to an actual dodging out the way. Harumafuji was also renowned for his explosive tachi-ai.

As I said, used sparingly it’s a valid tactic, but Ishiura’s over reliance on it points to a wider issue: his inability to think of or do anything else. He’s used it so much recently it suggests he’s pretty much reached the limit of what he can do as a wrestler. It’s no longer a tactic of ingenuity for him, it’s an attempt at survival. Forgive me if I’m not impressed.

[Kuroyama]

12 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Harumafuji’s HNH’s still involves actual contact. They’re not even close to comparable to an actual dodging out the way. Harumafuji was also renowned for his explosive tachi-ai.

As I said, used sparingly it’s a valid tactic, but Ishiura’s over reliance on it points to a wider issue: his inability to think of or do anything else. He’s used it so much recently it suggests he’s pretty much reached the limit of what he can do as a wrestler. It’s no longer a tactic of ingenuity for him, it’s an attempt at survival. Forgive me if I’m not impressed.

If Ishiura has reached his limit, he'll pay the price for it without anyone hating him for it.

[Eikokurai]

3 minutes ago, Kuroyama said:

If Ishiura has reached his limit, he'll pay the price for it without anyone hating him for it.

I hope you’re not suggesting I hate him, because that would be an absurd misrepresentation of my opinions. I used to quite like him, but recently he’s been two one-dimensional for my tastes. I don’t apologize for that.

[Taikoubana]

20 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I hope you’re not suggesting I hate him, because that would be an absurd misrepresentation of my opinions. I used to quite like him, but recently he’s been two one-dimensional for my tastes. I don’t apologize for that.

I have to agree. Ishiura was an entertaining rikishi to watch a year or so ago, but his sumo has grown stale. I rarely pay attention during his bouts these days because the outcome is predictable.

[Morty]

2 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

He uses it so often it’s barely a game anymore. I think it’s also a cop out to say he should use it just because he isn’t big. Other smaller rikishi throughout sumo history developed a range of techniques for compensating for their lack of size. Harumafuji was hardly the biggest man in the world but rarely backed out of a tachi-ai. Maybe Ishiura just isn’t that talented a wrestler.

Harumafuji wasn't that heavy but he was tall and had reach. Harumafuji is listed on the database as 186cm and 133kg. By comparison Hakuho is listed as 192cm and 152kg, while Ishiura is only 173cm and 103kg. So even to a "smaller" guy like Harumfuji he was giving up 13cm and 30kg. Put him up against someone like Aioyama (192cm and 192kg) or Tochinoshin (192cm and 162 kg) where he is giving up 20cm in height (and also reach), and 60+ kgs in weight, to skilled makuuchi level rikishi who are very good at sumo, I'm kind of mystified what else he is expected to do except use his speed and get out of the way, ie henka. As a bone fide little guy in both height and weight he has zero chance of winning if he goes chest to chest. That is just basic physics. Everyone has cottoned on to the submarine technique now and knows how to avoid falling for it so he has lost that option as well. If he was 40 to 50kgs heavier, like Takakeisho, Onosho or Toyonoshima (who are similar height) then he would have more options, but at 103kgs the bigger guys will just rag doll him almost every time tries to mix it with them in traditional fashion. There is a reason why these guys put on a lot of weight... 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Morty

[Eikokurai]

9 minutes ago, Morty said:

Harumafuji wasn't that heavy but he was tall and had reach. Harumafuji is listed on the database as 186cm and 133kg. By comparison Hakuho is listed as 192cm and 152kg, while Ishiura is only 173cm and 103kg. So even to a "smaller" guy like Harumfuji he was giving up 13cm and 30kg. Put him up against someone like Aioyama (192cm and 192kg) or Tochinoshin (192cm and 162 kg) where he is giving up 20cm in height (and also reach), and 60+ kgs in weight, to skilled makuuchi level rikishi who are very good at sumo, I'm kind of mystified what else he is expected to do except use his speed and get out of the way, ie henka. As a bone fide little guy in both height and weight he has zero chance of winning if he goes chest to chest. That is just basic physics. Everyone has cottoned on to the submarine technique now and knows how to avoid falling for it so he has lost that option as well. If he was 40 to 50kgs heavier, like Takakeisho, Onosho or Toyonoshima (who are similar height) then he would have more options, but at 103kgs the bigger guys will just rag doll him almost every time tries to mix it with them in traditional fashion. There is a reason why these guys put on a lot of weight... 

Ama (as he was then known) was 113kg when he entered Makuuchi and I don’t recall him pulling a henka two out of every three bouts. Chiyonofuji never surpassed 115kg. They had more height than Ishiura, sure, but they are both known for their technical skills, which they used successfully against guys who were as big to them as they are to Ishiura (it that makes sense). 

[Morty]

Just now, Eikokurai said:

Ama (as he was then known) was 113kg when he entered Makuuchi and I don’t recall him pulling a henka two out of every three bouts. Chiyonofuji never surpassed 115kg. They had more height than Ishiura, sure, but they are both known for their technical skills, which they used successfully against guys who were as big to them as they are to Ishiura (it that makes sense). 

Yeah but Harumafuji and Chiyonofuji were both Yokozunae, meaning they were way more skilled rikishi than Ishiura . Ishiura just isn't that good. Everyone has to work within their limitations. And to be fair, in Chiyonofuji's day the average rikishi weight was way less than it is now and a heavyweight was 150kgs. 

In sumo I think you can give up one out of two of height, and weight, and still be competitive, but not both. As a short and light guy I can attest to the fact that if when I used to wrestle (not sumo) with guys much bigger than me, even if they were less skilled, if they had some skills, I usually lost. Unless I cheated (but that's another story...)

[Eikokurai]

2 minutes ago, Morty said:

Yeah but Harumafuji and Chiyonofuji were both Yokozunae, meaning they were way more skilled rikishi than Ishiura . Ishiura just isn't that good. Everyone has to work within their limitations. And to be fair, in Chiyonofuji's day the average rikishi weight was way less than it is now and a heavyweight was 150kgs. 

In sumo I think you can give up one out of two of height, and weight, and still be competitive, but not both. As a short and light guy I can attest to the fact that if when I used to wrestle (not sumo) with guys much bigger than me, even if they were less skilled, if they had some skills, I usually lost. Unless I cheated (but that's another story...)

I don’t think we’re on different pages here then. My point as I said earlier is simply that Ishiura just isn’t that good a wrestler and his over reliance on henka, valid or otherwise, attests to that. A better rikishi would have other plans. Half the time his henka just seems to be “get out the way and hope the guy falls over”. He often doesn’t seem to have a plan to exploit the advantage, whereas smart wrestlers are able to seize the initiative. Ishiura keeps losing in spite of his henka. Quite the feat.

[Morty]

Just now, Eikokurai said:

I don’t think we’re on different pages here then. My point as I said earlier is simply that Ishiura just isn’t that good a wrestler and his over reliance on henka, valid or otherwise, attests to that. A better rikishi would have other plans. Half the time his henka just seems to be “get out the way and hope the guy falls over”. He often doesn’t seem to have a plan to exploit the advantage, whereas smart wrestlers are able to seize the initiative. Ishiura keeps losing in spite of his henka. Quite the feat.

Yes I agree with all of that. I guess my point is that in a combat sport without weight classes in a tiny, tiny ring, where you have to stay on your feet, smaller guys have to use whatever tactics are legal if they want to stay in the top paid ranks, and I don't necessarily think they should be criticised for doing so. If I was standing across from Aioyama at the tachai knowing he was going to rush at me trying to tsuppari my head off I'd get out of the way too

[Eikokurai]

15 minutes ago, Morty said:

Yes I agree with all of that. I guess my point is that in a combat sport without weight classes in a tiny, tiny ring, where you have to stay on your feet, smaller guys have to use whatever tactics are legal if they want to stay in the top paid ranks, and I don't necessarily think they should be criticised for doing so. If I was standing across from Aioyama at the tachai knowing he was going to rush at me trying to tsuppari my head off I'd get out of the way too

I totally get that and Ishiura is only doing what he thinks is best for him, as he should, but for me as a fan if a see a guy pulling henka ten times a basho I’m thinking this is a rikishi out of his depth. I’d rather see him lose trying than retain his rank that way, but of course it’s his career and not mine. 

[Morty]

5 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I totally get that and Ishiura is only doing what he thinks is best for him, as he should, but for me as a fan if a see a guy pulling henka ten times a basho I’m thinking this is a rikishi out of his depth. I’d rather see him lose trying than retain his rank that way, but of course it’s his career and not mine. 

See this is why I love the Sumo forum - we can have a civil discussion on the interwebs without it getting out of hand. Good job everybody!

[Eikokurai]

15 minutes ago, Morty said:

Yes I agree with all of that. I guess my point is that in a combat sport without weight classes in a tiny, tiny ring, where you have to stay on your feet, smaller guys have to use whatever tactics are legal if they want to stay in the top paid ranks, and I don't necessarily think they should be criticised for doing so. If I was standing across from Aioyama at the tachai knowing he was going to rush at me trying to tsuppari my head off I'd get out of the way too

I totally get that and Ishiura is only doing what he thinks is best for him, as he should, but for me as a fan if a see a guy pulling henka ten times a basho I’m thinking this is a rikishi out of his depth. I’d rather see him lose trying than retain his rank that way, but of course it’s his career and not mine. 

[Eikokurai]

3 minutes ago, Morty said:

See this is why I love the Sumo forum - we can have a civil discussion on the interwebs without it getting out of hand. Good job everybody!

Sorry, that posted twice thanks to my poor internet connection.

[Yatagarasu]

That Endou - Ichinojou bout was quite the spectacle. Bout of the basho so far for me. Very impressive display of determination from Endou. I don’t know how he managed to stay on his feet. 

[since_94]

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

That Endou - Ichinojou bout was quite the spectacle. Bout of the basho so far for me. Very impressive display of determination from Endou. I don’t know how he managed to stay on his feet. 

Agreed. One of the best bouts of all time for me as aviewer. Much warrior spirit on display today. Tochinoshin, Mitakeumi immediately spring to mind. Goeido  looked the best he’s been since day 1. What a day of sumo! (Note: autocorrect turned Goeido to gondola in my original post )

Edited May 17, 2018 by since_94

[Eikokurai]

6 minutes ago, since_94 said:

Agreed. One of the best bouts of all time for me as aviewer. Much warrior spirit on display today. Tochinoshin, Mitakeumi immediately spring to mind. Gondola looked the best he’s been since day 1. What a day of sumo!

Sounds exciting! I haven’t seen it yet. Endo has impressed so far in his sanyaku debut, even when he’s lost he’s been in the contest, and that’s one Ozeki and one Sekiwake scalped to date.

[YoungSumo]

Ichinojo - Endo was by far the best bout of the tournament and even one of the best of the year imo. Ichinojo with some mobility is fun to watch finally and Endo is proving he might just have what it takes to take the step to the next level after all. 

So far it looks like Hakuho, Kakuryu and Tochinoshin will be the main players fighting for the yusho. Barring some basho ending injury, Tochinoshin looks to be a lock for his Ozeki promotion.

[Yatagarasu]

I thought the Chiyonokuni - Daiamami bout was an absolute belter as well.

Ikioi is looking utterly battered today. Poor guy is so injury prone now.