Should-have-been Y/O

[Taikoubana]

What are some Ozekis of the past you believe should have been Yokozuna? Or Sekiwakes/Komusubis you believe should have been Ozeki?

Your answer can be entirely subjective. This is mostly for fun, so no arguing over bad choices (i.e. Mainoumi should have been Ozeki.) Alternatively, you can also mention Yokozunae that you believe should have stayed Ozeki.

I'll start. I think Kaio should have been Yokozuna. He had the power and hinkaku of a Yok, but suffered too many kyujo and was overshadowed by Takanohana and Asashoryu. Had neither of them been around at the time, Yokozuna Kaio could have been a strong possibility.

(Mods, feel free to move this if it should be in a different forum)

[Dapeng]

People may say that Kaio could have made an yokozuna, but if you check his career record, he never made two consecutive bashos with one yusho and another 13 wins or better.  His best was a 13 wins yusho followed by a 12 wins. That is, he was near but never reached the "two consecutive yushos or equivalent" for yokozuna promotion.

The golden standard for yokozuna promotion, i.e., two consecutive yushos, was never achieved by someone below ozeki, except Futabayama (maybe that's why only ozeki is eligible for promotion to yokozuna). As to the yusho equivalent, I think 14 wins can be considered as yusho equivalent  but 13 wins , if not in playoff, can't be considered as yusho equivalent. As someone pointed out, more than 90% of 14-wins were yusho, but only ~50% of 13-wins were yusho.

 

 

[Jakusotsu]

2 hours ago, Taikoubana said:

I think Kaio should have been Yokozuna.

He's the first one to come to mind without thinking hard. Kaio will always be the Yokozuna of Hearts.

(for me anyway - I know Mr. Gunning will probably disagree)

[mbovo]

3 hours ago, Taikoubana said:

I think Kaio should have been Yokozuna. He had the power and hinkaku of a Yok, but suffered too many kyujo and was overshadowed by Takanohana and Asashoryu. Had neither of them been around at the time, Yokozuna Kaio could have been a strong possibility.

Takanohana wouldn't have been a problem, he already faded at the time Kaio was at his best. First the huge Hawaiians and later on the deadly Mongolians stood in his way.

[sekitori]

The theoretical requirement for yokozuna promotion is two consecutive tournament championships or a record equivalent to the same. Kisenosato did it with two consecutive yushos. His record in the tournament preceding them was 12-3, providng a cumulative 39-6 for three bashos. Compare that to Konishiki's three basho record including to his two championships. He won he Kyushu basho in 1991 with a 13-2  record. He followed that up with a yokozuna-like 12-3 in the Hatsu basho and then won the Haru basho with another 13-2. His combined record for the three bashos was 38-7.

The ony differences between his and Kisenosato's cumulative records for the three bashos was that he had one win less and that he won two yushos out of three instead of two successive ones.  Kisenosato obviously deserved promotion with his two consecutive yushos. But although he had a very similar three basho record, Konishiki was not promoted. One reason could have been that the  YDC didn't think his record was the equivalent of winning two back-to-back yushos. Then again, maybe they didn't believe he had the temperament to be a yokozuna. There possibly were other reasons.  But despite the judgement of the YDC, I and many others believe that Konishiki also deserved promotion to yokozuna. 

The effect of that negative decision on his promotion showed up immediately. After winning his third yusho at 13-2, his best record until his retirement five years later was ten wins--and he only accomplished that twice. 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by sekitori

[Asashosakari]

6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

He's the first one to come to mind without thinking hard. Kaio will always be the Yokozuna of Hearts.

(for me anyway - I know Mr. Gunning will probably disagree)

I seem to remember that Doitsuyama's strength ratings also strongly supported Kaio not having been yokozuna.

Depending on how one defines "should" - Wakashimazu, from what I've read, was considered to have yokozuna talent but was allegedly content with having made ozeki and wasn't really keen on all the stuff that the yokozuna rank would have brought with it.

As for sekiwake who should have been ozeki, I believe the two names mentioned most commonly are Hasegawa and Kotonishiki.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Asashosakari

[yorikiried by fate]

2 hours ago, sekitori said:

Kisenosato did it with two consecutive yushos.

Wrong.

 

2 hours ago, sekitori said:

Kisenosato obviously [1] deserved [2] promotion with his two consecutive yushos [3].

1. Wrong.
2. Wrong.
3. Still wrong.

[Bumpkin]

Prior to his promotion, Ozeki Kisenosato was 10-5; 12-3 J(12), 14-1 Y(1). That is 36-9. He was promoted primarily because he was Japanese. BTW, I supported his promotion.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Bumpkin
14-1 Y not 13-2 Y; 36-9 not 35-10.

[Eikokurai]

Kaiō had the talent to take the rope but I don’t think anyone can say he was unjustly denied promotion. His best years (in the early 2000s) were punctuated with kyujos, preventing him putting up the sort of numbers the Kyokai couldn’t ignore. For the last decade of his career he was the quintessential kunroku with mostly 8-7 and 9-6 records. I’m sure that had he stayed injury-free he would have made it, but his is a case of “could have been” not “should have been”. The kyokai made no mistake overlooking him.

[Yamanashi]

This is an interesting topic; many of you have experience seeing upper-level rikishi in action over the years, and your comments are appreciated.

So that I wouldn't miss possible Yokozuna candidates that had even a chance of promotion, I asked the DB to find Ozeki runs as Ozeki: i.e., how often can an Ozeki maintain that level of performance at the Ozeki rank? The results [33 wins over three basho, first as Ozeki]:

Bold names advanced to Yokozuna.  This query doesn't count yusho; a rikishi could get two yusho and go to Yokozuna without having a three-basho run.

So, I'd start my internal conversation with the men on this list that didn't make it, starting with Konishiki.

(Previous list)

Edited March 31, 2018 by Yamanashi
Defined "Ozeki run"; included Yokozuna number; etc.

[Katooshu]

1 hour ago, Bumpkin said:

Prior to his promotion, Ozeki Kisenosato was 10-5; 12-3 J(12), 13-2 Y(1). That is 35-10. He was promoted primarily because he was Japanese. BTW, I supported his promotion.

He was 36-9, with a 14-1 yusho rather than 13-2. In his 3 before that run he was 12-3 (J), 13-2 (J), 13-2 (J) for 38-7.

Last 6 before promotion = 74-16 1Y/4J.

And then the 13-2 yusho right after, in the basho with the debililtating injury.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Katooshu

[Eikokurai]

@Yamanashi

That’s a cool query, but just so I’m clear, those numbers refer to any sequence of three basho and thus counts a basho multiple times, right? For example, if we take this sequence of results for Konishiki ...

Nov 1989: 14-1

Jan 1990: 10-5

Mar 1990: 13-2

May 1990: 12-3

July 1990: 10-5

... this would count as 3 “Ozeki runs”?

[Yamanashi]

1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

@Yamanashi

That’s a cool query, but just so I’m clear, those numbers refer to any sequence of three basho and thus counts a basho multiple times, right? For example, if we take this sequence of results for Konishiki ...

Nov 1989: 14-1

Jan 1990: 10-5

Mar 1990: 13-2

May 1990: 12-3

July 1990: 10-5

... this would count as 3 “Ozeki runs”?

That's right.  I don't consider that to be a "bug", but a "feature", since it shows concentrated "momentum" (or something).

Most interesting was Musashimaru, who ran up a big string of runs after making Ozeki, then went fallow during 1995-1996, then popped off two Yusho in a row.  Veteran members of this forum may know the story behind that data, but I don't.

 

[Eikokurai]

4 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

That's right.  I don't consider that to be a "bug", but a "feature", since it shows concentrated "momentum" (or something).

Most interesting was Musashimaru, who ran up a big string of runs after making Ozeki, then went fallow during 1995-1996, then popped off two Yusho in a row.  Veteran members of this forum may know the story behind that data, but I don't.

 

1999. Akebono and the -hana brothers were struggling with injuries and frequently kyujo, Takanonami was off form and Chiyotaikai was only a new Ozeki. Time was ripe for Musashimaru to push on.

[sekitori]

4 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Wrong.

 

1. Wrong.
2. Wrong.
3. Still wrong.

I  admit that I don't know as much about sumo as some of you experts. At times my information is incorrect and when it is, I expect to be corrected. 

In this particular case, I stated that Kisenosato earned promotion to yokozuna by winning two consecutive yushos. As was stated, I was incorrect. He was promoted after his first yusho and was a yokozuna when he won his second one. Also, his three basho record before promotion was 36-9. Konishiki had a better record, 38-7, and he wasn't promoted. The fact that the NSK needed a Japanese yokozuna probably had a lot (maybe everything) to do with Kisenosato's promotion.

My point is this. Instead of informing me why I was wrong, all I saw was "Wrong" and then "Wrong, Wrong, Still wrong". I can accept criticism if it's helpful,  but I was given no idea why I was incorrect. Criticism without any explanation accomplishes nothing. In this case, it only indicates that someone knows more about a particular subject than I do and wants everyone to know that he does. The best way to describe the attitude of people who throw criticism around and do absolutely nothing to clarify why they're doing so is that they're "wrong". But unlike a previous post, saying that word just once is more than enough. 

 

[Bumpkin]

2 hours ago, Eikokurai said:... this would count as 3 “Ozeki runs”?

 

Yokozuna runs.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Bumpkin

[Eikokurai]

26 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Yokozuna runs.

Sorry?

[I am the Yokozuna]

Tochiazuma, Baruto, probably Chiyotaikai twice had the chance during the Takanohana and then Asashoryu era - that is my time watching sumo. And from all these three probably the biggest loss was Tochiazuma. 

[mbovo]

7 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

Bold names advanced to Yokozuna.  This query doesn't count yusho; a rikishi could get two yusho and go to Yokozuna without having a three-basho run.

So, I'd start my internal conversation with the men on this list that didn't make it, starting with Konishiki.

 

Takanonami's name is in bold, although he never advanced to Yokozuna.

[ryafuji]

I think that the important thing to remember with Konishiki’s yokozuna bid was that middle tournament of 12-3 wasn’t even a jun-yusho. He only came third behind Takahanada on 14-1 and Akebono on 13-2. He could really have no complaints when the Kyokai determined that this middle performance was not good enough. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by ryafuji
typo

[charliki]

17 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

As for sekiwake who should have been ozeki, I believe the two names mentioned most commonly are Hasegawa and Kotonishiki.

Another sekiwake could have become Ozeki: Wakanosato.

Edited March 31, 2018 by charliki

[Asashosakari]

30 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

I think that the important thing to remember with Konishiki’s yokozuna bid was that middle tournament of 12-3 wasn’t even a jun-yusho. He only came third behind Takahanada on 14-1 and Akebono on 13-2. He could really have no complaints when the Kyokai determined that this middle performance was not good enough. 

Takanohana/hanada was obviously hyped beyond belief already, but I've always wondered how obvious it was at the time that Akebono would also be a major player in the near future, and if that might have affected their view of Konishiki as well.

16 minutes ago, charliki said:

Another sekiwake could have become Ozeki: Wakanosato.

At the time I was also one of those who thought that it was a shame that Wakanosato didn't make it to ozeki, but in hindsight: It's hard to maintain that there was ozeki potential in somebody who didn't achieve a single 12-win tournament in 6 years worth of joi-jin appearances. He never really delivered a good promotion challenge, topping out at 30 wins in 3 basho (and that happened just once, too).

Edited March 31, 2018 by Asashosakari

[sekitori]

1 hour ago, ryafuji said:

I think that the important thing to remember with Konishiki’s yokozuna bid was that middle tournament of 12-3 wasn’t even a jun-yusho. He only came third behind Takahanada on 14-1 and Akebono on 13-2. He could really have no complaints when the Kyokai determined that this middle performance was not good enough. 

I think that whatever ill effect his third place 12-3 had on his promotion,  it was more than offset by his winning the yushos preceding and following it. 12-3 is still a pretty good yokozuna-like record and sandwiched between two yushos, that seemingly should have qualified him for advancement to yokozuna. So should his three basho record of 38-7. Kisenosato's middle performance of 12-3 before his yusho didn't keep him from being promoted. And it was preceded by a 10-5.

I believe that the YDC had some sort of bias against Konishiki's promotion and that played a larger role than only considering winning tournaments and numerical records. One member wanted to wait another tournament to be doubly sure he was qualififed. Another one stated that he did not possess hinkaku. Many believed that his advancement to yokozuna was blocked because he was a gaijin. I have no idea if that was true or not. But the fact remains that he was qualified for and for whatever reason, was denied promotion. 

I wonder how he would have done as a yokozuna. I don't think he would have been considered to be an outstanding or even a very good one. I have doubts whether he would have won another yusho. But he certainly would have done far better than he actually did after his last yusho when he came up with ten wins only twice in the next five years.

[Tochinofuji]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Takanohana/hanada was obviously hyped beyond belief already, but I've always wondered how obvious it was at the time that Akebono would also be a major player in the near future, and if that might have affected their view of Konishiki as well.

At the time I was also one of those who thought that it was a shame that Wakanosato didn't make it to ozeki, but in hindsight: It's hard to maintain that there was ozeki potential in somebody who didn't achieve a single 12-win tournament in 6 years worth of joi-jin appearances. He never really delivered a good promotion challenge, topping out at 30 wins in 3 basho (and that happened just once, too).

I'd have to agree on Wakanosato. I was going to post his name up, as I was always a fan, but on reviewing his records on the database, it's hard to make an argument for ozeki promotion. A strong perennial sekiwake, but not more. 

[Fukurou]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Takanohana/hanada was obviously hyped beyond belief already, but I've always wondered how obvious it was at the time that Akebono would also be a major player in the near future, and if that might have affected their view of Konishiki as well.

Musashimaru was also starting to make moves at this time (3 basho at Maegashira, 2 at Komisube), following right behind Akebono' and Takanohana (he was still a couple years from making Ozeki and longer yet to Yokozuma). Perhaps it wasn't the 2, but the 3 that caused them to look at Konoshiki negatively. Surely they weren't worried so much about Wakanohana

(I was here for Musashimaru's Yokozuna run, but he was already Ozeki when I arrived)

Edited March 31, 2018 by Fukurou