Takanohana-devil's advocate

[Kintamayama]

So, who was against/for Takanohana? His biggest rival since the old days of course, Takadagawa Oyakata, ex-Akinoshima, (Nishonoseki Ichimon) who was pushing for a contract cancellation. "The biggest problem is that we don't know what he may do in the future.." he said. (Takanohana left that Ichimon in 2010). "He has apologized. We all want him to start afresh," said  Tamagaki Oyakata, ex-Tomonohana (Isegahama Ichimon)  the scholar.  Irumagawa Oyakata ex-Tochitsukasa, Dewanoumi Ichimon: "He has admitted that his actions were wrong. I asked him to go out to the press and tell the whole truth." Nishikido, ex- Mitoizumi (Takasago Ichimon) and Isenoumi, ex-Kitakachidoki (Tokitsukaze Ichimon) have declared they will agree to anything the Kyokai decides.

[Kintamayama]

Just now, Dapeng said:

That's not a demotion.  He is already at "iin" rank.

No, he is at the Yakuin Taigu iin rank. It's a one rank drop.

Wikipedai:

• rijichō (chief director, primus inter pares among riji)
• riji (director)
• fuku-riji (vice director)
• yakuin taigu iin (executive member)
• iin (committee member)
• shunin (senior member)
• iin taigu toshiyori (elder receiving iin privileges)
• toshiyori (elder)

Edited March 28, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Dapeng]

3 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

No, he is at the Yakuin iin rank. It's a one rank drop.

His new job is being a plain member of the black-cloth referee committee, which is the job of "iin" rank. This change of job is not a discipline.

[Kintamayama]

8 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

His new job is being a plain member of the black-cloth referee committee, which is the job of "iin" rank. This change of job is not a discipline.

I guess it's really hard to own up and say you got it wrong, huh? Where did I even hint that becoming a referee is a discipline? I said he was demoted to iin, which he was. You , after quoting me, said it was not a demotion. The fact that he will now be a shinpan wasn't even mentioned. You were wrong, simple as that. He was demoted from yakuin taigu iin to iin.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Dapeng]

3 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I guess it's really hard to own up and say you got it wrong, huh? Where did I even hint that a referee is a demotion? I said he was demoted to iin, which he was. You , after quoting me, said it was not a demotion. The fact that he will now be a shinpan wasn't even mentioned. You were wrong, simple as that. He was demoted from yakuin taigu to iin.

You are right in saying that he is already demoted for 1 rank. I mean this demotion is a natural demotion,  not a discipline by the kyokai. The kyokai riji will have a meeting tomorrow to decide the discipline on Takanohana (and his deshi Takayoshitoshi).

[Kintamayama]

Just now, Dapeng said:

You are right in saying that he is already demoted for 1 rank. I mean this demotion is a natural demotion,  not a discipline by the kyokai. The kyokai riji will have a meeting tomorrow to decide the discipline on Takanohana (and his deshi Takayoshitoshi).

What is a natural demotion? Never heard of that. Any demotion is a discipline. Now, whatever the rijikai decides tomorrow could be a further discipline. But a demotion in rank is a discipline.

[Dapeng]

20 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

What is a natural demotion? Never heard of that. Any demotion is a discipline. Now, whatever the rijikai decides tomorrow could be a further discipline. But a demotion in rank is a discipline.

For example, if a current riji fails to be reelected to the next term, he is automatically or "naturally" demoted to a lower rank. Anyway, this is my understanding of the current sumo kyokai ranking system. 

[Kintamayama]

2 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

For example, if a current riji fails to be reelected to the next term, he is automatically or "naturally" demoted to a lower rank. Anyway, this is my understanding of the current sumo kyokai ranking system. 

OK, I now understand what you meant. I will now go quietly to stand in the corner and be ashamed. I apologize for my outburst.  I have no excuse for my being an arrogant idiot. Sorry.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari]

I don't see anything wrong in describing it as a demotion that Takanohana hasn't been selected for a yakuin taigu position again by the board of directors for the new two-year term. Normally the only way out of the yakuin taigu ranks is by promotion or by retirement, so this is very much not standard procedure.

[Akinomaki]

2 hours ago, Dapeng said:

For example, if a current riji fails to be reelected to the next term, he is automatically or "naturally" demoted to a lower rank. Anyway, this is my understanding of the current sumo kyokai ranking system. 

Do you know that only riji and fuku-riji are elected? All other ranks "naturally" only rise (or move on the same level) after they start as plain toshiyori, like the ordinary employees in an ordinary Japanese company and like the urakata.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Dapeng]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I don't see anything wrong in describing it as a demotion that Takanohana hasn't been selected for a yakuin taigu position again by the board of directors for the new two-year term. Normally the only way out of the yakuin taigu ranks is by promotion or by retirement, so this is very much not standard procedure.

In this Asahi news article:  https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL3X5RWYL3XUTQP02K.html

There is this saying "この日委員に降格されたのは処分ではなく、２月の理事候補選に立候補して落選したため、慣例に従った処遇だ。"  My understanding of this sentence: "this day (he) was demoted to iin but it is not a discipline, instead, it is just following previous examples since he was riji candidate in Feb but was not elected to riji. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Kintamayama]

2 hours ago, Dapeng said:

In this Asahi news article:  https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL3X5RWYL3XUTQP02K.html

There is this saying "この日委員に降格されたのは処分ではなく、２月の理事候補選に立候補して落選したため、慣例に従った処遇だ。"  My understanding of this sentence: "this day (he) was demoted to iin but it is not a discipline, instead, it is just following previous examples since he was riji candidate in Feb but was not elected to riji. Maybe I'm wrong.

No, you’re absolutely right.

[Asashosakari]

The sentence doesn't refer to "previous examples", merely to the fact that it is normal convention that yakuin taigu must be (re-)appointed to the position at the start of each 2-year term, and as such it didn't require any special sanctioning measures to demote Takanohana. At the risk of repeating myself: While yakuin taigu iin are in theory merely normal iin who have been temporarily endowed with greater job responsibilities, in practice it's almost always a permanent assignment. Everybody on the inside will consider it a punishment on Takanohana that he was no longer considered for one of these positions now. All that's happened is that Hakkaku et al. have managed to keep their hands clean in official terms.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Akinomaki]

4 hours ago, Dapeng said:

In this Asahi news article:  https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL3X5RWYL3XUTQP02K.html

There is this saying "この日委員に降格されたのは処分ではなく、２月の理事候補選に立候補して落選したため、慣例に従った処遇だ。"  My understanding of this sentence: "this day (he) was demoted to iin but it is not a discipline, instead, it is just following previous examples since he was riji candidate in Feb but was not elected to riji. Maybe I'm wrong.

I didn't know that as being customary. If for Takanohana, you change your "automatically or naturally demoted" to "demoted following standard procedure", I 'd be completely satisfied with that.

He still had to be demoted "unnaturally" by a decision of the rijikai - as Asashosakari explained it, in this case by denying him the customary rank he had been granted.

So let's see what the penalty will be tomorrow - for him and Takayoshitoshi

Edited March 28, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Dapeng]

26 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

The sentence doesn't refer to "previous examples", merely to the fact that it is normal convention that yakuin taigu must be (re-)appointed to the position at the start of each 2-year term, and as such it didn't require any special sanctioning measures to demote Takanohana. At the risk of repeating myself: While yakuin taigu iin are in theory merely normal iin who have been temporarily endowed with greater job responsibilities, in practice it's almost always a permanent assignment. Everybody on the inside will consider it a punishment on Takanohana that he was no longer considered for one of these positions now. All that's happened is that Hakkaku et al. have managed to keep their hands clean in official terms.

I know riji and fuku-riji are not permanent, if a riji is not reelected, he will not be appointed a corresponding job, and it's a demotion for sure (nothing to do with discipline).

As to Takanohana's demotion, based on your explanation, it seems that the kyokai does not consider yakuin taigu iin as a rank but only a job-dependent taigu or benefit. Since Takanohana is not appointed a corresponding job, he automatically loses the yakuin taigu and is a plain iin (if not further demoted today by the riji-kai).

[orandashoho]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Everybody on the inside will consider it a punishment on Takanohana that he was no longer considered for one of these positions now. All that's happened is that Hakkaku et al. have managed to keep their hands clean in official terms.

This was to be expected, given his clear disinterest in fulfilling his duties, absenting himself from the Yakuin office etc. Reappointing him would be unfair to other, more trustworthy iin.
Maybe the humble pie is enough to endow him with the trust that he can function as iin.

[Benevolance]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

So let's see what the penalty will be tomorrow - for him and Takayoshitoshi

20 lashes with a karaoke remote. 

[Kintamayama]

6 hours ago, Dapeng said:

I know riji and fuku-riji are not permanent,

I think that his saying fuku-riji got him in all this trouble in the first place.

[Kintamayama]

The rijikai is in session. On the agenda:  Punishments for Takanohana, Takayoshitoshi, Minezaki Oyakata, his violent deshi and Ootake Oyakata (for Oosunaarashi's conduct). Full day ahead.

[WAKATAKE]

Looks like he's been relegated to the judging department.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201803290000087.html

[Kintamayama]

10 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Looks like he's been relegated to the judging department.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201803290000087.html

No, it wasn't the punishment, just a shuffle of duties.It was already discussed in a lengthy discussion right here. The real punishment is forthcoming in a short while.

[WAKATAKE]

29 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

No, it wasn't the punishment, just a shuffle of duties.It was already discussed in a lengthy discussion right here. The real punishment is forthcoming in a short while.

You mean taking away the scarves wasn't enough?

[Kintamayama]

Just now, WAKATAKE said:

You mean taking away the scarves wasn't enough?

Apparently..

[Akinomaki]

9 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

The sentence doesn't refer to "previous examples", merely to the fact that it is normal convention that yakuin taigu must be (re-)appointed to the position at the start of each 2-year term, and as such it didn't require any special sanctioning measures to demote Takanohana. At the risk of repeating myself: While yakuin taigu iin are in theory merely normal iin who have been temporarily endowed with greater job responsibilities, in practice it's almost always a permanent assignment. Everybody on the inside will consider it a punishment on Takanohana that he was no longer considered for one of these positions now.

Do you do realize that it is just as "impossible" to read that in the text of the Asahi article, as me reading "Taka asked for status cancellation" in his complaint?

12 hours ago, Dapeng said:

In this Asahi news article:  https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL3X5RWYL3XUTQP02K.html

There is this saying "この日委員に降格されたのは処分ではなく、２月の理事候補選に立候補して落選したため、慣例に従った処遇だ。"  My understanding of this sentence: "this day (he) was demoted to iin but it is not a discipline, instead, it is just following previous examples standard procedure, since he was riji candidate in Feb but was not elected to riji. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Kintamayama]

Takanohana has been demoted to toshiyori, the lowest rank for Oyakatas. He did say he wanted to start from scratch so his wish was actually granted. Also, all his scarves have been confiscated and he will be allowed to carry black bags only. Takayoshitoshi was suspended for one basho. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kintamayama