Basho Talk - Aki 2017 (SPOILERS)

[orandashoho]

Thank you, Chijanofuji.

32 minutes ago, Chijanofuji said:

If this was "Wacky Aki" then that basho was "Crazy Kyushu". The big difference was that most of the excitement was in the 2nd half of that basho. After 11 days Musashimaru and Akebono were in the lead with a 10-1 record.  Both ended up with 11-4 and were caught by the other 3 to get to  that 5-way playoff.

"Crazy Kyushu" was a year or so before I caught the sumo bug, but I well remember the great battles between these men. In comparison, Wacky Aki is seriously underpowered with 5 injured sekitori missing. I much rather see a yusho contest with the contenders being in top form than one in which everyone is injured like today.

[Dwale]

It has been a long, strange ride this time around. Now we find ourselves at the threshold, with coin-toss odds for who takes the cup. I'm not a fan of either rikishi, so it makes little difference to me. I guess the Japanese would prefer a Goeido win here, but as long as the battle is entertaining then I will be satisfied. If it's all decided with a henka then I'll be, you know, bloody furious.

It would be nice if Kotoyuki takes the juryo yusho, after wrestling like crap for...I've lost track of how many basho, but plenty. He is capable of better.

[Asashosakari]

On 21.9.2017 at 16:43, Asashosakari said:

Kotoyuki-esque left hand by Goeido during the tachiai, after those multiple matta.

Ditto today, though at least the tachiai that they let go wasn't as egregious as the two they called back...

[Kintamayama]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Ditto today, though at least the tachiai that they let go wasn't as egregious as the two they called back...

 At least Goueidou in all cases had his right hand firmly down at some point. First time-Takanoiwa's hands were not even close. Second time, a quick brush of both hands way behind the line.

Take three from Goueidou's point of view-exactly the same as the two others- Right hand down firmly, and then nothing.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

 At least Goueidou in all cases had his right hand firmly down at some point. First time-Takanoiwa's hands were not even close. Second time, a quick brush of both hands way behind the line.

IMHO, the Goeido style (one hand down, one hand up) is the bigger cheat, because it allows him both to use the lower hand like a launching pad and to move his upper hand towards the opponent more quickly.

[WAKATAKE]

I personally am glad that it's come down to the last match of the basho. That way the crowd gets what they want out of it, and we even have the possibility of a playoff. Just glad that it's not going to end up as a 10-5 8 man playoff.

[MrGrumpyGills]

9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I can only guess it's the first. Tosanoumi was the first guy who I remember to show that habit. Looked like he wanted to eat his aite whole.

Omg XD
Thanks for answering my question, though :)

[Highway]

What a turnaround this will end up if Harumafuju pulls it off tomorrow. But I am predicting Goeido will lose the first, and win the second. 

[Amamaniac]

At last, Sadanoumi is winning some bouts.  After withdrawing for the start of the tournament, he returned on Day 6, only to lose 7 straight bouts.  For a while there I was thinking, what was the point of returning to the ring if he wouldn't win any bouts?  He could have just sat out the whole tournament (healed more), and the resulting drop in his ranking would be the same.  Now that he has won two bouts, I guess that drop won't be quite as severe.  The question is whether he will get enough wins to stay in the Makuuchi.  I wonder if there have been any Top Division wrestlers who went kyujo at the beginning of a tournament, and returned only to lose all their bouts (i.e., 8 or more)?  Returning to the ring after Day 8 makes less sense to me, although anything is better than nothing – except in the hypothetical case mentioned above.

[Atenzan]

10 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

I wonder if there have been any Top Division wrestlers who went kyujo at the beginning of a tournament, and returned only to lose all their bouts (i.e., 8 or more)?  Returning to the ring after Day 8 makes less sense to me, although anything is better than nothing – except in the hypothetical case mentioned above.

Not quite. However, there were 4 cases where makuuchi rikishi went kyujo during a basho while winless, then came back during the basho and didn't win any bouts, earning a total of 8 or more losses (including fusenpai):

 Ozeki Shionoumi goes 0-3, kyujos out, comes back on day 8 and loses 8 in a row, January 1951

Takanohana the father, then M12 Hanada, goes 0-1, kyujos out, comes back on day 7, loses 5 straight, then kyujos out a second time, March 1969

Wakanohana III, then komusubi Wakahanada, goes 0-5, kyujos out, comes back on day 11, loses 3 in a row, then kyujos out a second time, March 1992

Konishiki goes 0-3, goes home, goes out to fight on day 9, goes through the rest of the basho winless, September 1997.

Interestingly enough, the first guy to do that was an ozeki, and the other three went on to become ozeki later in there careers. Yokozuna in Wakanohana's case, though he was a realllly strong ozeki yet a realllly disappointing yokozuna.

 

[dingo]

I can't imagine what must've been going through Goeido's head after getting matta-ed twice...

I guess Chiyotairyuu is back to his normal self -- his explosive tachiai was nowhere to be found today.

[Amamaniac]

10 hours ago, Dwale said:

It would be nice if Kotoyuki takes the juryo yusho, after wrestling like crap for...I've lost track of how many basho, but plenty. He is capable of better.

While most of us are focused on the possibility of an exciting finish in the Makuuchi Division, the Juryo Division is equally tantalizing.  While Kotoyuki currently has the lead at 10-4, there are about five wrestlers with a 9-5 record.  There is the possibility of a multiple playoff situation for the Juryo yusho, but it all depends on whether Abi can defeat Kotoyuki.  In short, if all 9-5 wrestlers win their final bouts, there will be a 6-wrestler playoff.  If either Aminishiki or Homarefuji ends up winning the Juryo yusho, there will be some momentum for Haurmafuji to win so as to affect an Isegahama Stable sweep (with two come-from-behind victories).  That's my dream result.

P.S., If Harumafuji wins his 9th yusho, I will (have to) change my avatar!

Edited September 24, 2017 by Amamaniac

[sekitori]

To very loosely paraphrase Charles Dickens, "It is the best of bashos, it is the worst of bashos". It started out as being possibly one of the worst in recent history with three yokozunas and two ozekis missing. But because it has been so amazingly interesting,  it's ending as one of the best bashos in a very long time. Although there is a huge lack of talent because most top rikshis are gone, that has been made up for by its great unpredictability. Among other things, who could have predicted that Onosho would be considered as one of the favorites early in the basho? And who would have thought that instead dropping way down the Makunouchi ranks on the road to going intai, that Kotoshogiku would return to Sanyaku? Or that M16 Asanoyama would be a contender until the final day? Or that Aminshiki would again reach Makunouchi at age 39 after suffering what to many rikishis would have been a career ending injury? "Wacky Aki"? Absolutely.  Exciting and fascinating Aki? Yes, that too.

On senshuraku, the title will be won either by a yokozuna who is such a physical mess that he should have been kyujo (the word "intai" has sometimes been used in reference to his condition) or one of the most inconsistent ozekis in memory. That to me is an absolutely fascinating story and it's one of several reasons why Aki 2017 can be called "the best of bashos". 

Edited September 23, 2017 by sekitori

[bettega]

I do, in my little brazilian heart, remember that basho when Ama did that thing (video below). And I hope for the same (twice) tomorrow.

 

 

[ny32986]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

While most of us are focused on the possibility of an exciting finish in the Makuuchi Division, the Juryo Division is equally tantalizing.  While Kotoyuki currently has the lead at 10-4, there are about five wrestlers with a 9-5 record.  There is the possibility of a multiple playoff situation for the Juryo yusho, but it all depends on whether Abi can defeat Kotoyuki.  In short, if all 9-5 wrestlers win their final bouts, there will be a 6-wrestler playoff.  If either Aminishiki or Homarefuji ends up winning the Juryo yusho, there will be some momentum for Haurmafuji to win so as to affect an Isegahama Stable sweep (with two come-from-behind victories).  That's my dream result.

P.S., If Harumafuji wins his 9th yusho, I will (have to) change my avatar!

I hope we get the playoff and Aminishiki wins and gets promoted back to Makuuchi for the first time in over a year

[Amamaniac]

10 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

At least Goueidou in all cases had his right hand firmly down at some point. First time-Takanoiwa's hands were not even close. Second time, a quick brush of both hands way behind the line.

I watched both mattas in slow motion.  In the first case, Yoshikaze charged before Arawashi had his left hand down.  In the second case, Arawashi charged but did not appear to get both hands down before he charged.  But it was very, very close.  His right baby finger may have skimmed the dohyo, and his left hand came quite close indeed.  

It was nothing as blatantly false-start worthy as the Kotoshogiku v. Harumafuji bout on Day 3.  Yet neither the referee nor the shimpancho called a matta!  That particular loss, stupid as it was, was extremely costly to Harumafuji in hindsight.  The referees and judges are inconsistent at best, and they deserve censure just as much as the wrestlers who fail to "toe (fists down behind) the line".

[specialweek 2]

If it comes down to a playoff my records show Ama/Harumafuji has been in 4 winning 3 while Goeido has only been in one and lost.

Is that about right?

[Gurowake]

17 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

I watched both mattas in slow motion.  In the first case, Yoshikaze charged before Arawashi had his left hand down.  In the second case, Arawashi charged but did not appear to get both hands down before he charged.  But it was very, very close.  His right baby finger may have skimmed the dohyo, and his left hand came quite close indeed.  

It was nothing as blatantly false-start worthy as the Kotoshogiku v. Harumafuji bout on Day 3.  Yet neither the referee nor the shimpancho called a matta!  That particular loss, stupid as it was, was extremely costly to Harumafuji in hindsight.  The referees and judges are inconsistent at best, and they deserve censure just as much as the wrestlers who fail to "toe (fists down behind) the line".

Truly a maniac about Harumafuji, eh?  We went over exactly why what happened was completely fair at the time.  Should it have been called a matta?  Perhaps in a technical sense, but when one guy jumps early and the other guy happens to join him, the guy who jumped first can't just decide that *now* it should be a matta.  They have to be called by the officials.  If you don't move forward at all and get bulldozed out and never had your hands on the ground, you have a right to complain.  If you start moving forward at all, you can't rely on a matta to save you, even if your hands aren't down.  The fact that you went forward showed you were ready.  As was mentioned at the time, this is entirely to prevent people from playing tachiai/matta games with their opponent without their opponent able to do anything about it.  Harumafuji was likely doing a tactical/psychological matta because of how he gave up so fast, and it backfired because Kotoshogiku was ready.

Failing to see this despite it being explained many times is a sign of true mania I suppose.

[Gurowake]

Also, Harumafuji is much better lifetime against Goeido than Kotoshogiku, even if Goeido is currently the stronger rikishi.  My prediction system (which I don't claim is perfect, but for which there is plenty of evidence of it being rather good) has him around 3% (percentage points) less likely to beat Kotoshogiku, so he may not have really changed much by passing on fighting Kotoshogiku, as it only means he needs to defeat Goeido a second time.  If he beat Kotoshogiku, he'd still need to beat Goeido tonight in the first match.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Gurowake

[Dapeng]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Truly a maniac about Harumafuji, eh?  We went over exactly why what happened was completely fair at the time.  Should it have been called a matta?  Perhaps in a technical sense, but when one guy jumps early and the other guy happens to join him, the guy who jumped first can't just decide that *now* it should be a matta.  They have to be called by the officials.  If you don't move forward at all and get bulldozed out and never had your hands on the ground, you have a right to complain.  If you start moving forward at all, you can't rely on a matta to save you, even if your hands aren't down.  The fact that you went forward showed you were ready.  As was mentioned at the time, this is entirely to prevent people from playing tachiai/matta games with their opponent without their opponent able to do anything about it.  Harumafuji was likely doing a tactical/psychological matta because of how he gave up so fast, and it backfired because Kotoshogiku was ready.

Failing to see this despite it being explained many times is a sign of true mania I suppose.

If Harumafuji had not stopped but had continued moving forward to push Geeku out, I believe the referee and supervisors would call matta, because Geeku was apparently not ready. 

[Gurowake]

Just now, Dapeng said:

If Harumafuji had not stopped but had continued moving forward to push Geeku out, I believe the referee and supervisors would call matta, because Geeku was apparently not ready. 

What's your point?  That's what should have happened.  Harumafuji should have continued until a matta was called.  But it wasn't and he stopped anyway.  So he lost.

[Dapeng]

Just now, Gurowake said:

What's your point?  That's what should have happened.  Harumafuji should have continued until a matta was called.  But it wasn't and he stopped anyway.  So he lost.

If a starting is technically a matta, then it is a matta. It should not be judged according to the result. It's clear that Geeku was not ready so it was a technical matta. 

[Dapeng]

The referee did not call matta because Geeku won.

[Gurowake]

2 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

If a starting is technically a matta, then it is a matta. It should not be judged according to the result. It's clear that Geeku was not ready so it was a technical matta. 

https://www.football-bible.com/soccer-info/the-advantage-rule-in-soccer-explained.html

I know this isn't football, but it's the concept.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Gurowake

[WAKATAKE]

If Harumafuji does pull off the yusho win he will become the first yokozuna to have won the yusho while handing out four kinboshi. Looks like someone did it in the past having handed out three kinboshi. Given the fact that the previous two times the yusho was won at 11-4 were by a hiramaku and an ozeki, this would definitely be a first, and not a great one at that indeed.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201709240000177.html

Edited after being corrected by Asashosakari and rereading the article

Edited September 24, 2017 by WAKATAKE
Incorrect information