Games talk Aki Basho 2017

[Jakusotsu]

6 minutes ago, shimodahito said:

TTT: Takanorappa congrats ... the only KK.  Is that a first?

Nope. There's been another Wacky Aki not long ago:
http://turnthetide.sumogames.de/Standing.aspx?B=160&D=15

[Profomisakari]

4 hours ago, Nantonoyama said:

OK, I see the point.

The fact is: I have just taken over the game. I intend to make a clear statement on the rules of the game and the promotion/demotion rules for application in Kyushu basho.

However, this basho is still under Randomitsuki's rules, and in a private message he told me that Sadanoumi's points must be set to 0, and I quote: " the fact that Sadanoumi entered at a later stage does not matter; as in other games, Day 1 absence is what counts ".

I understand the point you make with respect to the website, and I intend to modify it. However, for this tournament, I am going to follow his instructions as the former game ruler, I am pretty sure he knows the rules he used to apply, and that they must have been written somewhere sometime.

Please don't sue me

1. I don't sue you. Why should I?
    You gave me an honest answer.

2. You write:  . . . they must have been written somewhere sometime.
     Yes, like Ganzo wrote:  http://juryo.sumogames.de/rules.htm
     Only: There ist nothing written about our case
     And if Rando, who I greatly appreciate, writes that Sada's points  must be set = 0,
     then he follows his sentiment and not the prescribed rules.
     And that is not good. 
     Rules must been written on a place that each player can find.

3.  For the future I hope you have access to the named site and change resp.
      complete it.

4. The overall results are now very funny.
     On day 15 brings Sada's defeat al 8 Sada pickers one point
     while the other 12 points meanwhile are deleted.
     I believe, like thisit has been in the past always.
     The software gives the points and sometime someone saw it and deleted them
     or nobody saw it and didn'd delete.

Do, what you think, you must it do!
But create clarity!

Profomisakari

   

[Jakusotsu]

Like I said before, I did better than ever in some games. The pinnacle being the yusho in Bench Sumo, the one game I played first and enjoy the most, and never thought possible to win. Same with Tipspiel where it all boiled down to Goeido in the end (congrats, kuroimori!). Winning that one too would have been nothing short of the Grand Slam for me.

11-4 in Sumo Game, 7th in Seki Quad, 3rd in Odd Sumo, 4th in Maegashira Game (missing day 1),  2nd in TUG and I don't know how high yet in BTC...Wacky Aki, indeed.

Thanks to all people running the games!

Edited September 24, 2017 by Jakusotsu

[Pandaazuma]

I don't get the problem with Juryo Game. The rules are stated very clearly, no?

• Attention: kyujo wreslters (or wrestlers who can't compete before the basho. ex: Baruto at Kyushu 2005 with 0-1-14 due to an appendicitis did not compete any day of the basho) won't give any points because for every wrestler injured during the tournament, the fate will be cruel for him and for you if he's part of your selection ... Sorry, there's a big part of luck too, in that game!

[Pandaazuma]

Great stuff, Jakusotsu...I saw how well you did! Hope you win the Green! I haven't checked the points as I have been too busy this week.

[Pandaazuma]

I learned two important things today, both of which I knew before...but of course it seems I never learn. ;)

First...I lost Oracle yusho on Endo. I would ordinarily predict a 9-6 for him but predicted 6-9 because I read he was in very bad shape. My rule is to ignore the pre basho keiko reports unless it is very clear that a rikishi is screwed. And that is the impression I got. But...

I don't mind the jun yusho of course...but I would have liked that fourth straight yusho. I will just have to win Kyushu! ;)

The other thing I learned was about Sumo Game. And I am glad I was demoted from ozeki, because it might help me learn it for real this time.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Pandaazuma

[orandashoho]

As expected, I did poorly in my games. SG with a tie to the lowest points total but KK, even 9-6 -- that is how it can go too, last basho I went 7-8 MK with a much higher score.
GKA 5-10, with stupid mistakes. BT also nothing to write home about.

But hey, I escaped being in a wheelchair when I broke my back four weeks ago, and I am on the mend. Just too bad that I didn't have a lot of energy to spend on the games, I enjoyed the basho and I am happy.

[Profomisakari]

54 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

I don't get the problem with Juryo Game. The rules are stated very clearly, no?

• Attention: kyujo wreslters (or wrestlers who can't compete before the basho. ex: Baruto at Kyushu 2005 with 0-1-14 due to an appendicitis did not compete any day of the basho) won't give any points because for every wrestler injured during the tournament, the fate will be cruel for him and for you if he's part of your selection ... Sorry, there's a big part of luck too, in that game!

@Panda - san! I may you. But we have a different idea of what is clear and what is not
Perhaps i am to old, to understand you.
Because of them let mit repeat my post from the previous site.
Perhaps didn't you read it.

I wrote yesterday (to Ganzo):

Quote

 

You mean this part:

"Attention: kyujo wreslters (or wrestlers who can't compete before the basho. ex: Baruto at Kyushu 2005 with 0-1-14 due to an appendicitis did not compete any day of the basho) won't give any points because for every wrestler injured during the tournament, the fate will be cruel for him and for you if he's part of your selection ... "

This is, about that I said: "I read the rules"
I miss one of the words "forbidden" or "not allowed"
The example Baruto: He was on the Torikumi Day 1 and has lost with Fusen Pai.
There is no relation to our case
The exemple shows only, that you can have bad luck in the game.
And so I see the last sentence of this bullet:

"Sorry, there's a big part of luck too, in that game!"

One word to Sadanoumi:
As you know: he came back and until yesterday won two points.
Tokushoryo won three, Yukateyama four. What a great differnce!

I repeat: Change this rules and I will respect it!

 

I don't understand: do you have another interpretation for this 5th ballot of the rules text as I have?

Profomisakari

 

[Pandaazuma]

Hi Prof! Sorry...I didn't mean to upset you. I am not clearly understanding the problem here. The rules say anyone who does not enter the basho on day one, or one who does not appear despite being on the day-one torikumi, is not counted.

I think perhaps your grievance is the fact that Sadanoumi's situation (starting on a later day) is not mentioned. That is understandable and it should be added for clarity.

I just always assumed that anyone not appearing on day one is left out of all pre-basho games even if they join later. But I can understand your frustration.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Pandaazuma

[Fukurou]

On 9/23/2017 at 09:32, Fukurou said:

Just a reminder about HOSHITORI, before people like me start asking questions...

The final results for Hoshitori will likely take a few days (weeks?) to appear. The day 15 results and KK/MK points should update automatically, as is normal, but bonus points (yusho & sansho winners) have to be added manually. All depends on Real Life allowing time to do this task.

Thank you so much. I'm very impressed as it appears everything is there ALREADY! 

[Randomitsuki]

Sorry for all the frustration about the Juryo Game scoring.

Dear Profo, first of all let me state that we are talking about the "Weak Maegashira" category here. In that category, you get points when your pick loses. In other words, it is not that you lost 2 points for Sadanoumi's two wins, but that you lost up to 13 points for his losses. But that's exactly the problem: how many "losses" did Sadanoumi have? 13, because he had only 2 wins? Or 8, for the losses he actually received on the dohyo? 

I think that the rules are sufficiently clear. Maybe not perfectly phrased, but clear enough. For all intents and purposes, Sadanoumi was kyujo before the basho, and he therefore did not appear on Day 1. The rules clearly state that "kyujo wrestlers...won't give any points". Otherwise, players could wait for the kyujo announcements and pick a kyujo rikishi of the "Weak Maegashira" category to score easy 15 points for the 15 "losses". I don't think that this would be a good idea.

I don't understand why the inclusion of the words "forbidden" or "not allowed" in the rules would change anything about it. Such picks are not forbidden, but they score 0 points, as the rules say. 

Again, I am sorry for this unfortunate and rare occurrence. The only similar case that I found in the history of the game might have been Natsu 2006 where Tokitsuumi was in the bottom 8 Maegashira, missed on Day 1, and later joined the basho. I don't know if Tokitsuumi was an eligible pick in Juryo Game back then.

Nantonoyama has just taken over banzuke making duties for this basho (which I appreciate very much). As he said, he might make some rule changes (or not), and it is up to him to also look whether the wording on the rule page could be clarified. In any case, I hope that you all will support him in whatever he does!

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Randomitsuki

[Profomisakari]

@Panda-san! The cow is still not from the ice!

If you say
"kyujo wrestlers (or wrestlers who can't compete before the basho. . . Let the misunderstandable exemple Baruto be!) won't give any points"

then  does this not only mean the case in the brackets, but  also kyujo wrestlers won't give any point.
Then we should delete all points of wrestlers, who only one day do not fight.
This is in our case Kizenryu.
I found no much players, who have him, but there are also such players.

Of course I want it not, but where is here the clarity in such a "rule"?Profomisakari
__________________________________________________________
 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Profomisakari

[kuroimori]

On 9/22/2017 at 17:52, Nantonoyama said:

That could be a rule evolution to study for future tournaments, yes. However, as this one is done under rules set by Randomitsuki, he clearly stated to me that any "weak maegashira" rikishi who does not show up on the dohyo on day 1 must be awarded 0 points, regarless of wether or not he later joins the basho.

I second Gurowake's approach and would like to suggest that this discussion could have completely avoided if Sadanoumi would simply have benn deactivated from the entry selection page (like kyujo rikishi are marked in Sekitori Oracle).

This is a game, it should be fun and extensive study of the rulebook just to participate is definitely not fun.

Just my two cents, and by the way, I am also one of those who picked Sadanoumi. I was surprised that he was still available in the entry form but I didn't have the time and musings to check if that pick would be in accordance with the rules.

[Randomitsuki]

4 minutes ago, kuroimori said:

I second Gurowake's approach and would like to suggest that this discussion could have completely avoided if Sadanoumi would simply have benn deactivated from the entry selection page (like kyujo rikishi are marked in Sekitori Oracle).

This is a game, it should be fun and extensive study of the rulebook just to participate is definitely not fun.

Just my two cents, and by the way, I am also one of those who picked Sadanoumi. I was surprised that he was still available in the entry form but I didn't have the time and musings to check if that pick would be in accordance with the rules.

1) Juryo Game is activated long before the kyujo announcement, so that players who have little time on first weekend have time to do their picks in advance. We would probably have many more complaints if Nantonoyama would wait until 48 hrs before the basho to initialize the game.

2) Deactivating a player after kyujo announcements could be done. But this would require that Doitsuyama does the deactivation in time. It is quite difficult to reach Doitsuyama in time, and it cannot be expected from him to be available at all times.

3) Even if Doitsuyama did have the time to deactivate a riksihi, many players might have made their picks beforehand already, so that's also no solution.

You also said: "Extensive study of the rulebook just to participate is definitely not fun". What's your suggestion, then? Not having rules at all? I don't get your point.

I would also like to point out that Nantonoyama commits a lot of time and effort to ensure a fair procedure. You should also consider how frustrating it might be for him to get so many complaints. Especially, as I do not see any grave mistakes. Picking a kyujo rikishi in "Weak Maegashira" has always resulted in zero points. The rules state this, and the rationale behind such a decision should be evident. Those who still pick a kyujo rikishi in this category are either trying to cheat to easy points, or they are not very attentive about the kyujo situation, I'd say.

[Profomisakari]

@ Rando - san,
While I wrote this, you posted above!

Now I lost total the clarity.
Does it mean, bullet 5 is only for the position "weakest Maegashira"?
than it should be written
So how it is written, is it not a rule, but ageneral and not very helpfull warning.
And that a kyujo wrestler besides of Weak maegashira gets no points, is no new information.

Then I suggest to write:

"For weak maegashira applies:
wrestlers while they are kyujo or wrestlers, who can't compete before the basho, won't give any points"

Meanwhile I read your next posts:

No, it is not helpfull, that Doistuyama blocks a rikishi, who goes kyujo.

Excuse me, but I found the bullet 5 not helpfull.

Profo

[Gurowake]

5 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

First...I lost Oracle yusho on Endo. I would ordinarily predict a 9-6 for him but predicted 6-9 because I read he was in very bad shape. My rule is to ignore the pre basho keiko reports unless it is very clear that a rikishi is screwed. And that is the impression I got. But...

 

There just wasn't enough data for me to decide to move from what I would normally do, unlike the first time Endo was hurt and and I guessed I think 5 instead of 9 and he ended up with 6.  That time, there was much more data as to how well he was doing competitively, which was below maegashira-level.  I was rather surprised that he even did better than expected this time; I resigned myself pre-basho to having made a bad systematic pick simply because there was no data to support an adjustment.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Gurowake

[Randomitsuki]

34 minutes ago, Profomisakari said:

@ Rando - san,
While I wrote this, you posted above!

Now I lost total the clarity.
Does it mean, bullet 5 is only for the position "weakest Maegashira"?
than it should be written
So how it is written, is it not a rule, but ageneral and not very helpfull warning.
And that a kyujo wrestler besides of Weak maegashira gets no points, is no new information.

Then I suggest to write:

"For weak maegashira applies:
wrestlers while they are kyujo or wrestlers, who can't compete before the basho, won't give any points"

Meanwhile I read your next posts:

No, it is not helpfull, that Doistuyama blocks a rikishi, who goes kyujo.

Excuse me, but I found the bullet 5 not helpfull.

Profo

What can I say? The rules were written by Hoshifransu in 2002 and apparently reworded in early 2006 after the Baruto case. I have never changed or rewritten the rules, as nobody has ever complained about them in almost 12 years.

Now, if I had re-worded the rules, it would have been as follows:

========================================================================

Kyujo rulings:

In all categories except "Weak Maegashira", the points for a rikishi are determined by the number of wins that the rikishi gets during the basho. In other words, if a rikishi enters late into a basho, the wins will count.

In the "Weak Maegashira" category, a rikishi who is not listed on the Day 1 torikumi will get zero points in total (even if the rikishi enters late into the basho). In all other cases (.e.g, a rikishi goes kyujo during the basho), the points for the rikishi are determined by the number of losses/absences that the rikishi gets during the basho.

========================================================================

These are the rules that I have been using. Nantonoyama might change them.

[Tsuchinoninjin]

Juryo Game-gate!

I dropped out of masters points on a few games in the last two days, whew, what a basho!

Thanks to all the games maintainers for your work!

[Gurowake]

As wacky as the basho was, my Masters results fell right around normal.  Depending on UDH and Salary Cap I might manage to push ahead of 30 points per basho this year despite such a terrible start of the year - I'm just a fraction behind that right now.  I somehow managed to come from way way behind in DTS to rack up a top 10 worth 2 points, and came from 0-3 in Bench to manage to be part of the huge tie for 2nd which I think will be worth 6.25.  After no luck for most of the tournament in Odd I manage to hit something good there late in the 2nd week to move up to 5th, where I also ended up in NC greatly helped by getting the Special Question right.  I used the same methodology for picking that one as I usually do (whatever I calculate as most likely, even though it might not be the most expected points because of the splitting of the points among those who are correct), and only 3 other people also went with it, probably due to a large portion of the players not feeling to greatly about Endo.  But I managed to foresee exactly the result that happened, and it greatly shocked me on the day those points were credited to my score given my general feeling about the Speical question being a crap-shoot.  With a 3rd, 2nd, and 5th in a row (12-12-11 kekka points) and being ranked at Sekiwake this tournament, I would be shocked not to get promoted there.

Yusho in Oracle is nice given that it's clearly the least luck-based of all the games; it gives me great vindication that my system really really works despite me only looking at results (and very occasionally keiko reports with hard data).

And a half point in Roto, whatever.

Also managed KKs in SG and Toto despite being in the negative quite a lot early on.  However wacky the start of the basho was, the end was somewhat more predictable.

No nominal KK in Quad, though scores were really low there, presumably due to the same problem I ran into - with the 3 Yokozuna absent, it was just so much harder to find winners all 15 days.  I had to deviate from my normal strategy quite a bit due to there simply not being enough high-ranked rikishi.  The last day I had to pick two guys that I had as slight underdogs for lack of anything better to pick, and the two days before that weren't much better, yielding an unsurprising 3 straight losses. 

 

edit;

Oh, and in non-Masters competition I also won the Bench KCC, which is a bit embarrassing for me to win as the gyoji, and this was two in a row.  Makes up for all those times that I had good finishes but early exits in the KCC.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Gurowake

[kuroimori]

I should tally 24.2 Master points, with an unbelievably narrow yusho in Tippspiel, a shared 3rd place in Sumo Game and a 7th place in Odd Sumo.

Not much hope to earn points in the games where the final results are not yet up. This "Whacky Aki Basho" required wily picking.

[Tsuchinoninjin]

The really large ratio of rikishi getting KK caused I think nearly everyone to lose points on the last day in Oracle.

[Nantonoyama]

Profomisakari asked for clarity and he is right to do so, so here are some clear statements for this 2017 Aki Basho Juryo Game:

- Because Sadanofuji was absent on day 1, his basho points are set to 0, for the reasons aforementioned
- The results as presented in the Juryo Game results page are final, as well as the win-loss records
- Before Kyushu basho, all rules will be clearly written in order to avoid any future ambiguity

Congratulations to Pepoetse, please stand for the national anthem of Hungary

[Profomisakari]

3 hours ago, Randomitsuki said:

What can I say? The rules were written by Hoshifransu in 2002 and apparently reworded in early 2006 after the Baruto case. I have never changed or rewritten the rules, as nobody has ever complained about them in almost 12 years.

Now, if I had re-worded the rules, it would have been as follows:

========================================================================

Kyujo rulings:

In all categories except "Weak Maegashira", the points for a rikishi are determined by the number of wins that the rikishi gets during the basho. In other words, if a rikishi enters late into a basho, the wins will count.

In the "Weak Maegashira" category, a rikishi who is not listed on the Day 1 torikumi will get zero points in total (even if the rikishi enters late into the basho). In all other cases (.e.g, a rikishi goes kyujo during the basho), the points for the rikishi are determined by the number of losses/absences that the rikishi gets during the basho.

========================================================================

These are the rules that I have been using. Nantonoyama might change them.

Thanks, Rando!
This is a word I can accept as clear understandable.

Profomisakari

Edited September 24, 2017 by Profomisakari

[Ganzohnesushi]

Weird results in Aki did not prevent me from getting some nice scores in various Sumo Games. Looking into details:

Daily Games:

• Chain Gang : Out on Day 3 - Not really good but enough for 0,94 SB masters points
• Sumo Game: 7-8 - Terrible start with 0-5 destroyed all dreams of a successful Ozeki run. In the end I was glad to win 7 Bouts to (hopefully) stay in Sanyaku
• Bench Sumo: 10-5J - 6 straight wins from the beginning looked very promising but after a mediocre 2nd week I'm happy with a shared Jun-Yusho and 6,25 SB masters points
• S-Toto 11-3-1 - I'm absolutely fine with the Jun-Yusho and 11,0 SB masters points. Bad  luck that I was somehow not able to make my picks on Day 3. As per my prepared sheets I would have won on that Day...
• Odd Sumo: 9-6 -  Finished in 11th place. Risking 2 Ante on Senshuraku cost me a Top 10 finish.
• TTT: 3-10-1 - Total disaster here....
• DST: 11-4 - Shared 5th place is worth 5,5 SB masters points.
• ISP: 9-6 - Not bad at all but not good enough for any SB masters points
• S4: 5-10 - Disappointing result, bye bye Sanyakuhood

Pre-basho Games:

• GTB: 15-0D - Shared Jun-Yusho was a great opener for Aki Basho with nice 11,0 SB masters points
• Fantasy: 9-6 - Finishing on 47th rank in the middle of nowhere
• RotoSumo: 10-5 - Still can't deal with a score of 9,77, for me that feels like 10-5
• Hoshitori: 2-13 - My worst result and my 7th consecutive MK, somehow it seems that always picking the wrong guys here has become business as usual
• UDH: 11-4 - Finishing in 14th place but hope for any SB masters points was never really there
• S-Oracle: 10-5 - 4th place is fine, I'm really happy with these 8,0 SB masters points
• SalaryCap: ? - Results will come only next weekend but I think I will finish in the middle of nowhere
• Juryo Game: 11-4 - Shared 4th rank and likely promotion to Sanyaku from M1e, 5,75 SB masters points
• OBG: 10-5 - Nice finish in the last three days, resulting in somehow surprising 2,50 SB masters points
• POG:  8-7 - Slightly above average, Ikoi's inexplicable weakness averts a better result
• NorizoCup: 10-5 - Perfect results on Senshuraku enabled a Top 10 finish with 1,50 SB masters points

All in all I finished 9x in Top 10 with 52,44 SB masters points in total.    Wow! For me it was a not so Wacky Aki.

Ganzohnesushi

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Ganzohnesushi

[Pitinosato]

15 hours ago, Nantonoyama said:

Profomisakari asked for clarity and he is right to do so, so here are some clear statements for this 2017 Aki Basho Juryo Game:

- Because Sadanofuji was absent on day 1, his basho points are set to 0, for the reasons aforementioned
- The results as presented in the Juryo Game results page are final, as well as the win-loss records
- Before Kyushu basho, all rules will be clearly written in order to avoid any future ambiguity

Congratulations to Pepoetse, please stand for the national anthem of Hungary

After having picked Sadanoumi and read all (OK, almost all ) your comments in this case, briefly my thoughts:

- FIRST: many thanks to Nantonoyama for overtaking the Juryo Game, and so not to allow to let this Game die !

- I read the rules before the Basho, and I thought and think they were not clear enough in this point

- agains thanks to Nanto for clarifing the rules till next Basho

- I am not happy with the decision made for this Basho. But it is only one Basho

Pitinosato