Ura - Yokozuna Bandwagon

[Kaminariyuki]

So, I recall a month or so back, Churaumi humorously responding to my first Sumo Forum post (at least slightly humorously in any event), and mentioned the Ura yokozuna bandwagon. To which, Katooshu replied "Is there a Ura Yokozuna bandwagon?" Why, yes. Yes, there is a Ura yokozuna bandwagon, 'cause we're starting one right now! 

I'm still just pulling/hoping for a KK this basho, seemingly more probable every day, as our boy in the pink mawashi is now 5-1 and in second place (or third depending on how you look at it). And, he threw his first henka of the basho at Takakeisho and got rewarded with a W and a day of rest in the middle of the basho, about a three second match and he barely touched Takakeisho. I've started a separate thread here, because it doesn't seem a perfect fit to bury in the current "Basho Talk" thread, but y'all can correct me if I'm wrong. Many have weighed in on that previous thread, and the consensus, as much as there was one, was that eventually Sekiwake or Komusubi would be Ura's highest possible/likely rank. It seems pretty obvious to me that Ura has been closely studying Hakuho, and they share the gifts of amazing speed and diverse unpredictable tactics. I know he doesn't have the body of the classic ozeki/yokozuna physique, but I think that it's true about the importance of spirit and determination, focus and execution. If he can score another 4 or 5 wins, I wonder if he could make komusubi next basho (his 4th in makuuchi). I'm not counting Ura out. The Yokozuna bandwagon. Get the instruments out, line up the floats. It's time to march!

[Churaumi]

I should have copyrighted that phrase and charged royalties.

[Philioyamfugi]

I'm on... i like him :)

[Atenzan]

I love Ura, but I don't know how he and Hakuhou are similar in any way. 

[RabidJohn]

Ura isn't hard enough to be a yokozuna.

I like how he's progressed this time, with his forward moving oshi-zumo. He's even started going forwards at the tachi ai, but he's still not going forwards hard enough. It's his style to rely more on wits than fighting spirit and it's working so far, but I think he's going to need a lot more aggression to rise beyond sanyaku.

Like McBugger I'm struggling to see a parallel between Hakuho and Ura. For a start Hakuho had already been a yokozuna for a couple of years by the time he was Ura's age!

I'll tell you what... when I see Ura knock someone out with a kachi-age at the tachi-ai, I'll believe he might make ozeki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohQlEMcs5w0

Edited July 14, 2017 by RabidJohn

[Churaumi]

Chiyonofuji is more the type of yokozuna Ura would become, a little guy with incredible techniques and decent power for his size. Hakuho is a mid-size yokozuna with decent techniques and incredible power for his size.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Churaumi
How did it autocorrect to "Haluho?"

[Bumpkin]

5 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

Hakuho is a mid-size yokozuna with decent techniques and incredible power for his size.

"decent techniques"???  How about "incredible techniques".

[Sokkenaiyama]

I don't see anything "mid" about 192 cm and 153 kg.

[Churaumi]

Line him, Chiyonofuji, and Akebono up and see who looks big.

[RabidJohn]

He's definitely towards the upper end of the scale in terms of height, but several cm shorter than the tallest, and 153kg is somewhat below the makuuchi average, I believe, so mid size is a reasonable description for Hakuho.

As regards technique, though, Hakuho is a master technician with 42 different kimarite to his name; 1 more than that other master of technique, Chiyonofuji. More than that, he has an uncanny ability to react to almost every situation with the right counter-technique. He's even gone hunting for opportunities to achieve rare kimarite, like his yobimodoshi a couple of years ago.

Getting it back to Ura, he's doing really well with a tally of 22 kimarite so far, including some proper rarities. I think his rate of new kimarite acquisition will reduce, though, as he's forced to concentrate more on the oshi-zumo he's doing so well with these days.

[Asashosakari]

1 hour ago, Churaumi said:

Chiyonofuji is more the type of yokozuna Ura would become, a little guy with incredible techniques and decent power for his size.

No offense intended, but that strikes me as an even more absurd comparison than Hakuho <-> Ura. Chiyonofuji was a very lean, average height guy, while Ura (at least since gaining weight) is a very short, very stocky rikishi. If anything, Ura's headed for the Toyonoshima build. There's no way Ura can or will be doing Chiyonofuji-style sumo.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari]

On another note, it seems people are conflating wildly different ideas of "good technique". Chiyonofuji wasn't exactly the proverbial department store of tricks, no matter how far his kimarite record extends at the very bottom. (More than half of his 39 kimarite were used three or fewer times...) The overwhelming part of his success was built simply on pretty standard sumo, just executed to perfection and with unusual speed.

That's something quite different than what rikishi such as Mainoumi, Kyokushuzan or Tokitenku brought to the table, which is more the class of rikishi that Ura appears to belong to. (Including a future career-high rank of komusubi, I reckon.)

Edited July 14, 2017 by Asashosakari

[RabidJohn]

5 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

On another note, it seems people are conflating wildly different ideas of "good technique". Chiyonofuji wasn't exactly the proverbial department store of tricks, no matter how far his kimarite record extends at the very bottom. (More than half of his 39 kimarite were used three or fewer times...) The overwhelming part of his success was built simply on pretty standard sumo, just executed to perfection and with unusual speed.

I'm with you on that. Check out any rikishi with a high tally and you'll see lots of one-time rarities along with a very low number of kimarite used for the vast majority of wins. Much more important is how they use technique, no doubt; 38 yusho is a way better indicator of Hakuho's mastery of technique.

39? Sumodb says 41... http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=1354

What am I missing?

[Asashosakari]

28 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

39? Sumodb says 41... http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=1354

What am I missing?

I figure it makes little sense to include fusensho and isamiashi in a discussion of rikishi's technical skills.

[Jyuunomori]

Ura's promotion to Yokozuna is just as likely as Gagamaru's Ozeki promotion...

 

...as good as confirmed.

 

I really love Ura, I really do. But I don't think he is gonna make it to Yokozuna. He makes it to Ozeki if he has enough luck to help his incredible skills. I would be happy is he is a Joi regular.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Jyuunomori

[Kaminariyuki]

I know, I know. I'm a dreamer. What can I say?

Just to be clear on the comparison bit, though, I never said they were similar. I suggested that they share some important qualities. It's not the same thing. Two people can be very different, and yet share certain qualities, like speed, reaction, openness to living in the micro-second, to take life and adversaries as they come, even with unorthodox tactics when they serve, ...simply because it is there, you understand it and have the reflexes and intellect to act. I understand the opposing view, and I'm probably wrong about Ura studying Hakuho, too, but if Ura actually goes double digit KK there will be interviews. Don't be too awfully surprised if you hear him say that he has been studying the great master, Hakuho, a man who focuses more completely on winning than any athlete in any sport I have ever watched.

I don't really think Ura will be a yokozuna, but I think it's plausible. And, I'm very much pulling for the young man, and am not counting him out against anyone until the match is over. Cause the kid's clearly a dreamer, too.

[Philioyamfugi]

To make ozeki he's going to have to beat Hakuho and the top guns with some regularity. I don't see it but would love to be wrong.  He's going to get his chance.

[Kishinoyama]

It is still early in the Nagoya tournament but he could be ranked at Komusubi in September.... I don't think he will go beyond Sekiwake but I never thought Kisenosato would become a Yokozuna. Who here predicted a zensho for Goeido? If you did then you need to play the lottery. 

[Kaminariyuki]

22 hours ago, Philioyamfugi said:

To make ozeki he's going to have to beat Hakuho and the top guns with some regularity. I don't see it but would love to be wrong.  He's going to get his chance.

Well, here we go... I'm thinking about getting up in the middle of the night to watch this one live, even though I'm completely aware of the likely outcome. Either way, one of my two favorite wrestlers wins on Day 8. Haukho doesn't drop to many first-time combatants, as I understand it.

[Philioyamfugi]

I'm setting my alarm for 4:30am est. To see Ura Hakuho and Kagayki against Haramafuji. They will both need the positive vibes.

[Seijakuzan]

What separates even a dai-Ozeki from even a mediocre Yokozuna are the weaknesses.  Baruto had no imagination/technique, Kotooshu's height could be used against him, Kotoshogiku is a one-trick pony, and pre-2016 Kisenosato was a mental choke, as examples.   Ura has too many weak spots in his arsenal, and when they are exposed, he loses horribly.  A huge one for Ura is that no matter how much you're an off-the-mawashi specialist, you have to be able to win on the belt a good percentage of the time if you want to make it to the top.  All the joi rikishi will find a way to get on his belt as time goes on.  He also relies too much on henka right now, and that won't fly (no pun intended) at sanyaku.

[808morgan]

He is magic! And polite! 

[Benihana]

Well, he lost, but it was not an easy fight for Hakuho, including a HNH! And Ura almost got his leg, just imagine the outcome. Will we see another HNH tomorrow? When was the last time a newbie got back-to-back henka by Yokozuna in his joi-debut? 

[Kaminariyuki]

3 hours ago, Benihana said:

Well, he lost, but it was not an easy fight for Hakuho, including a HNH! And Ura almost got his leg, just imagine the outcome. Will we see another HNH tomorrow? When was the last time a newbie got back-to-back henka by Yokozuna in his joi-debut? 

Yes, it was never in doubt, but it seemed Ura was clearly going all out for the win. He wasn't out there trying to survive for 60 seconds like Takakeisho did the other day. A serious throw on Ura at the edge. I think the Hak likes wrestling some newbies. The difference between the two, though, was with Takakeisho, Hakuho seemed to be saying "what have you got kid?" Where as with Ura, he actually half helped him up after that brutal throw, and seemed to be indicating with his facial expression, "Kid, that was pretty good."

Tomorrow, he flukes big time and catches Harumafuji in a bad spot for a kinboshi.

[Kaminariyuki]

16 hours ago, Seijakuzan said:

What separates even a dai-Ozeki from even a mediocre Yokozuna are the weaknesses.  Baruto had no imagination/technique, Kotooshu's height could be used against him, Kotoshogiku is a one-trick pony, and pre-2016 Kisenosato was a mental choke, as examples.   Ura has too many weak spots in his arsenal, and when they are exposed, he loses horribly.  A huge one for Ura is that no matter how much you're an off-the-mawashi specialist, you have to be able to win on the belt a good percentage of the time if you want to make it to the top.  All the joi rikishi will find a way to get on his belt as time goes on.  He also relies too much on henka right now, and that won't fly (no pun intended) at sanyaku.

Ura is M-4 in only his third Makuuchi basho. Only one henka in eight matches. I think he has the potential to stretch sumo slightly into new territory, and all the nay sayers agree and are probably correct that Sekwake will be his highest conceivable  level. I'm still pulling for him. After all, the nay sayers all said he would go MK in his Makuuchi debut and he went KK. The prevailing wisdom was that he would certainly MK in his 2nd basho and he went 11-4, surprised even me although I'd predicted 8 to 9 wins. The third, so said the crowd, he would crash and burn and it could still happen, but he started 5-1 and finds himself joi-jin. We shall see.