Basho Talk - Nagoya 2017 (SPOILERS)

[Washuyama]

7 hours ago, rhyen said:

There are only 18 rikishi who have won more Yusho than Harumafuji.

or are we limiting it to the legendary dai-Yokozuna who have won more than 20 yusho?

I find it hard to compare those who fought before/during WWII to those after due to number of bouts/basho per year.  I guess being one of only 73 yokozuna makes him one of the greatest of all time.  But if you compare him with those, say in the last 60 yrs or so, he would make the "Hall of Very Good" not the Hall of Fame.  Similar to Wajima and a few others who fought at the same time as a dai-yokozuna it's hard to say he was anything more than that. 

[Kaminariyuki]

Good sumo today. The three top guys all looking very strong. My two favorite wrestlers head-to-head tomorrow. I know what's probably going to happen, but I'm cranked to watch it. Ura is most certainly going to receive some education, but if I were Hakuho I'd not stand straight up close to the edge of the ring and taunt my opponent with a little hand wave.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Thundersnow

[Akinomaki]

17 hours ago, Benihana said:

On 14.7.2017 at 12:42, Morty said:

And is Kotoyuki carrying an injury, or is it just that the others have all worked out how to deal with his relatively one dimensional sumo?

First i wanted to say "marriage", but his downward-spiral began a few weeks before that.

Shukan Post is the kind of tabloid to focus on the recently (announced) married sekitori http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20170710_584636.html

From our marriage thread we have more detailed information:

Wedding reception / announcement in June: Kotoyuki (2-5), Sadanoumi (3-4), Homarefuji (5-2)/ Arawashi (5-2), Ishiura (3-4) end of May

April: / Chiyonokuni (2-5)

February: Tokushoryu (2-5), Aoiyama (7-0)

in total 29-27 - what does that tell about the influence of recent marriage?

Aoiyama might tell that his result is thanks to his wife

[rhyen]

25 minutes ago, Washuyama said:

I find it hard to compare those who fought before/during WWII to those after due to number of bouts/basho per year.  I guess being one of only 73 yokozuna makes him one of the greatest of all time.  But if you compare him with those, say in the last 60 yrs or so, he would make the "Hall of Very Good" not the Hall of Fame.  Similar to Wajima and a few others who fought at the same time as a dai-yokozuna it's hard to say he was anything more than that. 

I am sorry, let me get back to you once I collected all my gray matters off the sushi counter. 

[Toumorokoshi]

30 minutes ago, Washuyama said:

I find it hard to compare those who fought before/during WWII to those after due to number of bouts/basho per year.  I guess being one of only 73 yokozuna makes him one of the greatest of all time.  But if you compare him with those, say in the last 60 yrs or so, he would make the "Hall of Very Good" not the Hall of Fame.  Similar to Wajima and a few others who fought at the same time as a dai-yokozuna it's hard to say he was anything more than that. 

Admittedly I'm not that familiar with his sumo, but Wajima is no.7 on the list of all-time yusho holders, with 14. I mean if being in the top 10 all-time yusho holders doesn't constitute the hall of fame... what does?

As to Harumafuji, he's got 8 yusho, three of them zensho, and he's had to out-perform Hakuho for every single one of them. Again, calling him one of the greatest of all time doesn't seem like a stretch. Certainly he's a far above average yokozuna.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Toumorokoshi

[Morty]

43 minutes ago, Washuyama said:

I find it hard to compare those who fought before/during WWII to those after due to number of bouts/basho per year.  I guess being one of only 73 yokozuna makes him one of the greatest of all time.  But if you compare him with those, say in the last 60 yrs or so, he would make the "Hall of Very Good" not the Hall of Fame.  Similar to Wajima and a few others who fought at the same time as a dai-yokozuna it's hard to say he was anything more than that. 

Man that's a pretty harsh assessment. If being a Yokozuna doesn't get you in the Hall of Fame I don't know what does. Being an Ozeki gets you in the Hall of Fame as far as I'm concerned. Either of those ranks puts you in the top one percent (or less) of your sport which would get you in any Hall of Fame in any other sport anywhere on the planet. It's like saying that Ricky Henderson wasn't as good as Willie Mays so doesn't deserve to get entry to Cooperstown.

Re Dai-Yokozunae, if you look at the last 50 years or so, there has probably been at least one Dai-Yokozuna operating at any particular time for most of the time since the 60s. Dai-Yokozuna are rare, but it is also rare to have a time when at least one of them isn't around. And a Dai-Yokozuna limits the possibility of other rikishi winning a lot, just because they are so dominant. Hakuho is the Dai-est of Dai-Yokozuna in that statistically he is 10% better than the rest of them in terms of winning percentage, he is the GOAT. And to become a Yokozuna, Harumafuji achieved the feat of two consecutive zensho-yushos, and then followed it up with a third zensho in four bashos, all while Hakuho was at the peak of his powers. He achieved the absolute rarest of rare feats at that time, being better than Hak in two consecutive bashos, while Hak was at his peak. The only other person to do that is Asa. Sure Harumafuji gives up a few kinboshi but he weighs on average 30 to 40 pounds less than most of his opponents. If all that combined doesn't make Harumafuji one of the greatest, I don't know what does. Add 10% to his record and he compares favourably with Akebono and Musashimaru and Wajima. He is top 30 all time, which is pretty hard to top if you ask me. 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Morty

[WAKATAKE]

You have to admit that Harumafuji has faired a lot better than most other yokozuna. It has been pointed out that he is in the higher half of yokozuna when it comes to number of yusho. And he has had to play second fiddle to one of the GOATs of the sport. Even with that, eight yusho isn't bad considering his circumstances, or the fact that Kakuryu has also been in the mix, as well as four ozeki. And he is within half a year of becoming one of the top 10 yokozuna for longevity in the six basho era.

[Asashosakari]

46 minutes ago, Washuyama said:

I find it hard to compare those who fought before/during WWII to those after due to number of bouts/basho per year.  I guess being one of only 73 yokozuna makes him one of the greatest of all time.  But if you compare him with those, say in the last 60 yrs or so, he would make the "Hall of Very Good" not the Hall of Fame.  Similar to Wajima and a few others who fought at the same time as a dai-yokozuna it's hard to say he was anything more than that. 

Wow, that's a very strict definition. For me, "Hall of Very Good" would be guys like Baruto and Chiyotaikai...

[Washuyama]

Then would Wakanohana (any or all 3) also be on the GOAT list?  Or Mienoumi?  Wakashimazu? Konishiki? Futahaguro?  Where do you draw the line?   I guess my bar for the term "greatest" is a little higher than most.  I sometimes even have little arguments with myself (that way I always win) where Takanohana and Musashimaru fall considering their respective heya advantage.  It's all just personal opinion anyway.  Like buttholes--everybody has one and they all stink!

 

[Jakusotsu]

There's at least one thing this discussion was good for: now it finally hit me what GOAT means.

[Asashosakari]

45 minutes ago, Washuyama said:

Then would Wakanohana (any or all 3) also be on the GOAT list?  Or Mienoumi?  Wakashimazu? Konishiki? Futahaguro?  Where do you draw the line?   I guess my bar for the term "greatest" is a little higher than most.  I sometimes even have little arguments with myself (that way I always win) where Takanohana and Musashimaru fall considering their respective heya advantage.

Well, the original claim was "one of the best of all time". I don't think that was meant to imply that Harumafuji is in the mix for the much more exclusive GOAT discussion, which by definition seeks to identify only the absolute number 1.

And at least to me, "Hall of Fame-worthy" is an even (slightly) lower barrier than "one of the best of all time". I'd still consider guys like Kaio and Wakanohana III as HoF-caliber rikishi, even though they're another step below not-quite-dai-yokozuna such as Harumafuji or Hokutoumi, to say nothing of the even more superior Wajima. (None of whom are anywhere near the GOAT level, of course.)

(As for Takanohana, I think an argument can be made that he was only marginally better than Akebono despite winning twice as many yusho. Their yokozuna winning percentages equate to 12.2 and 11.7 wins, respectively, and some back of the envelope calculations indicate that Takanohana derived a benefit of about 0.4 to 0.5 wins from his heya advantage.)

Edited July 15, 2017 by Asashosakari

[WAKATAKE]

2 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

There's at least one thing this discussion was good for: now it finally hit me what GOAT means.

It took me reading internet conversations about Floyd Mayweather to figure out what it meant.

[Morty]

18 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

It took me reading internet conversations about Floyd Mayweather to figure out what it meant.

Floyd's pretty good but I don't think he's the GOAT...

[Asashosakari]

The crowd goes whoah, and deservedly so:
 

 

[rhyen]

I don't know if Kisenosato is one of the unluckiest or luckiest yokozuna?

https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2017/07/15/0010371935.shtml

[WAKATAKE]

31 minutes ago, rhyen said:

I don't know if Kisenosato is one of the unluckiest or luckiest yokozuna?

https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2017/07/15/0010371935.shtml

Hakkaku ordering Kise to take the Aki basho off it seems?

[Asashosakari]

54 minutes ago, rhyen said:

I don't know if Kisenosato is one of the unluckiest or luckiest yokozuna?

https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2017/07/15/0010371935.shtml

Could you stop doing these "I know something you don't..." style posts? I've been biting my tongue about it for months now. If you're going to link a Japanese article, please have the courtesy of providing some sort of useful summary for those forum members who don't speak the language.
 

22 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Hakkaku ordering Kise to take the Aki basho off it seems?

"Ordering" seems like too strong a word. "Giving official support to the idea" is probably more like it. If Kise insists on competing, they're not going to stop him.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Asashosakari

[rhyen]

41 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Could you stop doing these "I know something you don't..." style posts? I've been biting my tongue about it for months now. If you're going to link a Japanese article, please have the courtesy of providing some sort of useful summary for those forum members who don't speak the language.
 

Apologies, perhaps I should also preface this with a request for translation.
I ran the article through google translate before posting it as a link and it was ambiguous at best.
I don't know enough Japanese to do an adequate summary of the article either.

[Dapeng]

1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

Hakkaku ordering Kise to take the Aki basho off it seems?

I think "advise " is a better word here. According to that article, Hakkaku gave Kise special permission to kyujo (do not attend a basho) for unlimited bashos until Kise is fully recovered and can compete at yokozuna level.

Now Kise is in big trouble, if he appears in Sept basho and is forced to withdraw again, he'll be advised to retire.

[Bumpkin]

41 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

I think "advise " is a better word here. According to that article, Hakkaku gave Kise special permission to kyujo (do not attend a basho) for unlimited bashos until Kise is fully recovered and can compete at yokozuna level.

Now Kise is in big trouble, if he appears in Sept basho and is forced to withdraw again, he'll be advised to retire.

No he won't. Kisenosato isn't going to retire anytime soon. Unlimited means just that. Kakuryu, on the other hand, better not drop out of the Aki basho. He would be forced to retire. I think.

[Highway]

Dream start for my man Aoiyama. It's gonna collapse as soon as he has to go against someone really serious, but fun while it lasts.

Very hard to bet against Hakuho this basho.

[Gurowake]

1 hour ago, Bumpkin said:

No he won't. Kisenosato isn't going to retire anytime soon. Unlimited means just that. Kakuryu, on the other hand, better not drop out of the Aki basho. He would be forced to retire. I think.

Izutsu specifically said that if Kakuyru can't win "next time he steps on the dohyo" he would have to retire.  He did *not* say that such an occurrence would be in September.

See, for example, http://www.thestar.com.my/sport/wrestling/2017/07/12/more-injury-woes-for-yokozuna-kakuryu/

[Bumpkin]

12 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Izutsu specifically said that if Kakuyru can't win "next time he steps on the dohyo" he would have to retire.  He did *not* say that such an occurrence would be in September.

See, for example, http://www.thestar.com.my/sport/wrestling/2017/07/12/more-injury-woes-for-yokozuna-kakuryu/

Yeah, I know. The point is, Kakuryu is on a very short rope. Kisenosato isn't.

[Nantonoyama]

3 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

Yeah, I know. The point is, Kakuryu is on a very short rope. Kisenosato isn't.

Kisenosato can still take advantage of his Hatsu explosion and Haru heroic yusho. Yet he stands one step behind Kakuryu in the danger zone...

[Kishinoyama]

12 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

Kisenosato can still take advantage of his Hatsu explosion and Haru heroic yusho. Yet he stands one step behind Kakuryu in the danger zone...

The NSK has waited a long time for a 'home grown' Yokozuna. Kisenosato isn't retiring anytime soon.