Basho Talk - Nagoya 2017 (SPOILERS)

[RabidJohn]

2 hours ago, rhyen said:

I was more interested in ex-Kitanofuji comment that Chiyonofuji's wins was more impressive than Hakuho because Chiyonofuji made no shenanigans (apologies if I misheard the English commentary).

I guess we are supposed to defer to his magnanimous appraisal because as a former Yokozuna, who also raised Chiyonofuji, he has seen everything. 

Anyone able to corroborate his rose-tinted appraisal of the 2 dai-Yokozuna?

I can confirm it's a real viewpoint! And it seems to be a widely held one throughout Japan. I've seen a few TV polls that always put Chiyonofuji ahead of Hakuho as 'greatest ever yokozuna'.

In terms of results it's clear that Hakuho is the GOAT - by quite a long way, too. However, there's more to being a yokozuna than being expected to win. There's also hinkaku; bearing yourself with the demeanour that's appropriate to the dignity of the rank. Big fail for Hakuho there, I'm afraid, whereas Chiyonofuji had it in spades, so it's a viewpoint I can well understand and I'm not sure it's all that rose-tinted. I won't say Chiyonofuji's the greatest because I never saw Taiho, and he's got to be a candidate, but while the record books will show Hakuho as the GOAT, the impression Chiyonofuji made as a yokozuna on the people who saw him in action is indeed far greater.

[Asashosakari]

I'm always amazed that Chiyonofuji gets trotted out as the hinkaku model yokozuna, given that we found out after his active career that basically nobody in the Kyokai wanted anything to do with him as an oyakata...they did everything they could to keep him out of the executive positions, his entire heya personnel bailed on him to found Hakkaku-beya with Kitanofuji and Hokutoumi, etc. etc. The public facade may have been impeccable, but I highly doubt the view on the inside was anything like that. (And that's without even bringing up the Itai elephant in the room.)

[Gurowake]

5 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

The public facade may have been impeccable, but I highly doubt the view on the inside was anything like that.

Isn't the public facade what we generally are referring to though?  I guess I don't know the fully connotations of "hinkaku", but I would expect stuff that happens behind closed doors outside the public view isn't all that much of a factor.  (Maybe we can split the line of this thread about Hakuho citizenship, since it's veering well off topic?)

[Asashosakari]

21 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Isn't the public facade what we generally are referring to though?  I guess I don't know the fully connotations of "hinkaku", but I would expect stuff that happens behind closed doors outside the public view isn't all that much of a factor.

Obviously the public tends to judge hinkaku merely by what's in public view, but I'm pretty sure behind the scenes everything matters, even if they have no desire to let the public get wind of any dirty secrets. Anyway, IMHO it veers into willful blindness territory to ignore what Chiyonofuji post-1991 tells us about Chiyonofuji pre-1991. Lance Armstrong comes to mind as a rough analogy. There don't seem to be that many people who think that the revelations of the last few years don't damage the public image he carefully built up in his active days.

I actually don't really care if somebody wants to cling to the fantasy of Chiyonofuji as this can't-do-wrong guy, but when he's used as a model to measure others by...well. I'm pretty sure that Hakuho won't be shoved into the proverbial window office for two decades, if he decides to stay with the Kyokai, which tells me all I need to know about who actually earned the respect of his peers and who didn't.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Bumpkin]

41 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

(And that's without even bringing up the Itai elephant in the room.)

Please explain?

[RabidJohn]

47 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm always amazed that Chiyonofuji gets trotted out as the hinkaku model yokozuna, given that we found out after his active career that basically nobody in the Kyokai wanted anything to do with him as an oyakata...they did everything they could to keep him out of the executive positions, his entire heya personnel bailed on him to found Hakkaku-beya with Kitanofuji and Hokutoumi, etc. etc. The public facade may have been impeccable, but I highly doubt the view on the inside was anything like that. (And that's without even bringing up the Itai elephant in the room.)

How do his failings as an oyakata stable head have any bearing on comparing his performance as a yokozuna with Hakuho's?

19 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Obviously the public tends to judge hinkaku merely by what's in public view, but I'm pretty sure behind the scenes everything matters. And IMHO it veers into willful blindness territory to ignore what Chiyonofuji post-1991 tells us about Chiyonofuji pre-1991. Lance Armstrong comes to mind as a rough analogy. There don't seem to be that many people who think that the revelations of the last few years don't damage the public image he carefully built up in his active days.

I actually don't really care if somebody wants to cling to the fantasy of Chiyonofuji as this can't-do-wrong guy, but when he's used as a model to measure others by...well. I'm pretty sure that Hakuho won't be shoved into the proverbial window office for two decades, if he decides to stay with the Kyokai, which tells me all I need to know about who actually earned the respect of his peers and who didn't.

I was really saddened to learn a bit about Chiyonofuji as Kokonoe-oyakata, and of course it's lessened my overall impression of him. I accept that it may be a bit rose-tinted, but I honestly believe that if his pre-1991 behaviour had been in any way indicative of what was to come post-1991, the Kyokai would not have offered him an ichidai-toshiyori, and Kitanofuji would never have swapped myoseki and handed him the heya. (Kitanofuji, who started this discussion by being on Chiyonofuji's side...)

When Hakuho has done 20-odd years in charge of Hakuho-beya, we'll be in a position to properly compare their overall careers.

Edited July 21, 2017 by RabidJohn

[Asashosakari]

2 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Please explain?

In the mid-1990s, Itai basically claimed that nearly the entire Chiyonofuji yokozuna career was one big yaocho sham, in which he used his popularity-driven financial wealth to buy wins and yusho to keep the money machine rolling, with threats of physical harm thrown in liberally towards rikishi who wouldn't fall in line. Somewhat related to that, there's a longstanding rumour that the Kyokai powers that be of the time put pressure on him to not go for Taiho's yusho record, and that that accounted for his very sudden retirement just half a year removed from his last championship.

3 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

How do his failings as an oyakata stable head have any bearing on comparing his performance as a yokozuna with Hakuho's?.

I didn't say he had failings as an oyakata, I said that the way he was subsequently treated as an oyakata by both his seniors and his contemporaries offered insights into how he was seen as an active rikishi by those who knew more than just the public facade. (And that's true regardless of whether or not one buys into the yaocho accusations.)

[Jakusotsu]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

However, there's more to being a yokozuna than being expected to win. There's also hinkaku; bearing yourself with the demeanour that's appropriate to the dignity of the rank. Big fail for Hakuho there, I'm afraid, whereas Chiyonofuji had it in spades, so it's a viewpoint I can well understand and I'm not sure it's all that rose-tinted.

This is quite an exaggeration, if true at all. I don't remember any big fail for Hakuho at hinkaku, or did you mix him up with Asashoryu? And as Asashosakari pointed out, Chiyonofuji was not exactly the role model yokozuna either. (And by the way, I'd like to know what the public currently thinks of Takanohana.)

 

On 20.7.2017 at 15:17, WAKATAKE said:

Someone close to Hakuho is saying that the yokozuna is considering trying to get Japanese citizenship, but when and how is not explained.

Would he be the second Mongolian rikishi after Kyokutenho to turn Japanese, or have there been others?

Edit: I just realized Asasekiryu owns a kabu, so is it safe to assume he's got citizenship as well?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Jakusotsu

[Bumpkin]

How credible do you think this is?

[RabidJohn]

5 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

This is quite an exaggeration, if true at all. I don't remember any big fail for Hakuho at hinkaku, or did you mix him up with Asashoryu?

No, I've never saw Asashoryu.

Hakuho fails with every dame-oshi, every time he smiles on the dohyo, every time he waves the kensho in the air... Not my imagination at all.

Watch Kagayaki. There's a kid who gets it. Hakuho doesn't.

Edited July 21, 2017 by RabidJohn

[Asashosakari]

18 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

... but I honestly believe that if his pre-1991 behaviour had been in any way indicative of what was to come post-1991, Kitanofuji would never have swapped myoseki and handed him the heya.

FWIW, while I've never really seen it discussed in the international fandom, my understanding is that it's an open secret that Kitanofuji bankrolled the creation of Hakkaku-beya and that the stable is more or less an unofficial continuation of the Kitanofuji-era Kokonoe-beya. I have no idea what exactly prompted the handing-over of Kokonoe-beya, but it seemed to be something that was decided long before 1991, given that Chiyonofuji rejected the ichidai toshiyori. Keep in mind that Kitanofuji himself was possibly not even meant to become head of Kokonoe-beya in the first place, seeing as he was an emergency successor when Chiyonoyama died unexpectedly.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari]

12 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Would he be the second Mongolian rikishi after Kyokutenho to turn Japanese, or have there been others?

Edit: I just realized Asasekiryu owns a kabu, so is it safe to assume he's got citizenship as well?

Yes, he does. (There was also Tokitenku.) One of the recent articles about Hakuho's prospective citizenship plans mentioned that the naturalization process took about 9 months for Asasekiryu. I found that surprisingly short, but I guess they just mean the officially documented amount of time it took from his application to it being granted.

[RabidJohn]

I confess I'd not heard of Itai's allegations, but I don't buy it anyway.

Like most conspiracy theories this is all coming across as most improbable. I ask again: would the Kyokai really have offered Chiyonofuji a free share in his own name if, as you say, he was almost universally disliked as a yokozuna?

What I can believe is that actually everything was hunky dory until some time post-1991 when Kitanofuji and Chiyonofuji had an irreconcilable falling out. We don't know what it was about, but the Kyokai did and they all sided with Kitanofuji, which suggests that Chiyonofuji was in the wrong. For me, that fits far better with the facts and seems more probable.

[Katooshu]

5 hours ago, rhyen said:

Geez, did Hakuho clone himself and put on a hairy skinsuit?

I wouldn't put anything past the GOAT. He was probably also in the audience watching at the same time.

[Asashosakari]

Just now, RabidJohn said:

I ask again: would the Kyokai really have offered Chiyonofuji a free share in his own name if, as you say, he was almost universally disliked as a yokozuna?

And shatter the organization's public "everything is fine, nothing to see here" image? I'm struggling to imagine that happening even in Western countries, let alone in Japan. They merely did what was expected of them by a public with whom Chiyonofuji was highly popular.

[Bumpkin]

Why did Chiyonofuji reject an ichidai-toshiyori to become Kokonoe Oyakata?

[RabidJohn]

I'm aware of the compromises made to save face, but that seems a little extreme. You're going to have to try a lot harder to convince me that yokozuna Chiyonofuji was a sham, though I'd really rather you didn't!

Notwithstanding any of this, the fact remains Chiyonofuji made a greater impression as a yokozuna than Hakuho has so far, according to Japanese public opinion. That's all.

11 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Why did Chiyonofuji reject an ichidai-toshiyori to become Kokonoe Oyakata?

It had no value to anyone but him, so he couldn't swap it to obtain Kokonoe; he had to obtain the 'real' Jinmaku kabu instead and swap that.

Or if you're asking why he wanted to be Kokonoe-oyakata rather than Chiyonofuji-oyakata, I can only guess it's the prestige of the Kokonoe myoseki. (Cue Pierre, telling me how way wide of the mark I am!)

Edited July 21, 2017 by RabidJohn

[Bumpkin]

4 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

It had no value to anyone but him, so he couldn't swap it to obtain Kokonoe; he had to obtain the 'real' Jinmaku kabu instead and swap that.

Why was a Kokonoe kabu more valuable than a Chiyonofuji ichidai kabu?

[RabidJohn]

Ichidai-toshiyori belong only to the honoured recipient. They cannot be swapped like the kabu can, nor can they be passed on after death. The Kitanoumi ichidai-toshiyori ceased to be upon his death, which is why Kitanoumi-beya was immediately renamed Yamahibiki-beya by it's inheritor. Same will happen when Takanohana-oyakata retires, Takanohana ichimon will remain, though, I think...

Edit: This is way off topic (sorry) - needs a split.

Edited July 21, 2017 by RabidJohn

[Bumpkin]

28 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Ichidai-toshiyori belong only to the honoured recipient. They cannot be swapped like the kabu can, nor can they be passed on after death. The Kitanoumi ichidai-toshiyori ceased to be upon his death, which is why Kitanoumi-beya was immediately renamed Yamahibiki-beya by it's inheritor. Same will happen when Takanohana-oyakata retires, Takanohana ichimon will remain, though, I think...

Edit: This is way off topic (sorry) - needs a split.

So, it's all about the money?

[Benihana]

9 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

So, it's all about the money?

I don't think he just wanted a heya for the money.

[Shatsume]

There is something I like about Mitakeumi going to the belt straight away in the last few days.

[Bumpkin]

I don't get it. The highest honor in sumo is to be offered an ichidai-toshiyori. There have been only three, Taiho, Kitanoumi and Takanohana.

[Kaminariyuki]

7 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Geek again staves off MK for another day as he made quick work of Ura, who at this point is just trying to finish up the basho with the injured knee. Rather unfortunate, as he might have had a chance at a sansho if he had gotten KK.

 

Excuse me, but injury notwithstanding, Ura still has two matches left and could still go KK. Gambatte Ura!

Kagayaki was clearly robbed, although I'm good with the four judge monoii system. We get enough video delays in other sports now (college basketball particularly irritating). Sometimes you just have to live with the bad breaks. Tradition has validity, too, and no system is perfect.

I can't speak to the big question of who's the greatest, as I've only been watching for a year or so. Hakuho is a truly extraordinary athlete, however, and I think he's short changed on the public image. It only takes a glance at his record to know that he's the greatest in recent history.

[Amamaniac]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Or if you're asking why he wanted to be Kokonoe-oyakata rather than Chiyonofuji-oyakata, I can only guess it's the prestige of the Kokonoe myoseki.

Keep in mind that when Chiyonofuji first entered sumo it was in the Kokonoe Stable under ex-Yokozuna Chiyonoyama.  Later, ex-Yokozuna Kitanofuji took over.  Eventually, Chiyonofuji acquired it from him for a song.  Aside from having the reputation of being the most successful stable in terms of Top Division championships won by its wrestlers, and aside from being Chiyonofuji's nostalgic home away from home, this was a stable with three ex-Yokozuna oyakatas in a row, and the hope must have been to produce yet another Yokozuna.