Basho Talk - Nagoya 2017 (SPOILERS)

[Akinomaki]

54 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

I don't get it. The highest honor in sumo is to be offered an ichidai-toshiyori. There have been only three, Taiho, Kitanoumi and Takanohana.

Taiho and Kitanoumi had to start their heya from scratch - Chiyonofuji wanted a flourishing heya at once. He couldn't have ousted Kitanofuji from Kokonoe as Chiyonofuji-oyakata.

Taka simply had to inherit his father's one.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I ask again: would the Kyokai really have offered Chiyonofuji a free share in his own name if, as you say, he was almost universally disliked as a yokozuna?

And shatter the organization's public "everything is fine, nothing to see here" image? I'm struggling to imagine that happening even in Western countries, let alone in Japan. They merely did what was expected of them by a public with whom Chiyonofuji was highly popular.

With the very important People's honor award for Chiyonofuji as the first from sumo, the NSK had no choice. And the all-time high in TV ratings for sumo for Chiyonofuji's first yusho shows his popularity as well. Not even Ura deciding his first makuuchi yusho would get that popular.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Akinomaki

[dingo]

Is it just me or was win number 1048 sort of underwhelming? A bit wobbly sumo from Hakuho and he was unable to finish Takayasu off convincingly for quite a few times. Of course the number is in itself impressive, but I guess I was expecting something more from Hakuho. 

[Dapeng]

54 minutes ago, dingo said:

Is it just me or was win number 1048 sort of underwhelming? A bit wobbly sumo from Hakuho and he was unable to finish Takayasu off convincingly for quite a few times. Of course the number is in itself impressive, but I guess I was expecting something more from Hakuho. 

Takayasu is a strong rikish and should not be underestimated. I consider him the next yokozuna after Kise. 

[Bumpkin]

30 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

He has hinkaku coming out his ears. 

Jason should put that on a tee shirt.

[sekitori]

8 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

 I've seen a few TV polls that always put Chiyonofuji ahead of Hakuho as 'greatest ever yokozuna'.

There's also hinkaku; bearing yourself with the demeanour that's appropriate to the dignity of the rank. Big fail for Hakuho there, I'm afraid, whereas Chiyonofuji had it in spades, so it's a viewpoint I can well understand and I'm not sure it's all that rose-tinted. I won't say Chiyonofuji's the greatest because I never saw Taiho, and he's got to be a candidate, but while the record books will show Hakuho as the GOAT, the impression Chiyonofuji made as a yokozuna on the people who saw him in action is indeed far greater.

I can understand completely why polls in Japan show that Chiyonofuji is a greater yokozuna than Hakuho. The answer is very simple. Chiyonofuji was Japanese. Hakuho is a gaijin.

And what exactly is wrong with Hakuho's demeanor? If you want to accuse a yokozuna of "un-yokozuna-like" behavior, think of Asashoryu. Some of his more major indiscretions included faking injuries to stay out of jungyos (for which he was suspended) and punching someone out in a nightclub which led to his retirement--before the NSK had a chance to kick him out of sumo. There is absolutely no comparison between his behavior and Hakuho's.

When someone is a yokozuna, he's living in a fishbowl where his every action is examined with a microscope. If in any way, no matter how slight, his actions are deemed unworthy of his rank, he's criticized. I'm a big fan of both Chiyonofuji and Hakuho.  I never saw Taiho but in my opinion, they are the two greatest yokozunas ever.  Why must one of them be considered greater than the other? What they both have in common was that they're human and have human frailties. It's virtually impossible not to show those imperfections to a minor degree, especially when everyone seems to be looking for them. 

The problem with Asashoryu was while he may have been as technically proficient as Chiyonofuji and Hakuho,  the word dignity was never a part of his vocabulary. Thugs do not make very popular yokozunas, certainly not ones that can be referred to as "great".

Edited July 22, 2017 by sekitori

[CT3*]

7 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

No, I've never saw Asashoryu.

Hakuho fails with every dame-oshi, every time he smiles on the dohyo, every time he waves the kensho in the air... Not my imagination at all.

Watch Kagayaki. There's a kid who gets it. Hakuho doesn't.

Wait. Are we really comparing recent newcomer Kagayaki to Hakuho?

[Fukurou]

28 minutes ago, sekitori said:

I can understand completely why polls in Japan show that Chiyonofuji is a greater yokozuna than Hakuho. The answer is very simple. Chiyonofuji was Japanese. Hakuho is a gaijin.

And what exactly is wrong with Hakuho's demeanor? If you want to accuse a yokozuna of "un-yokozuna-like" behavior, think of Asashoryu. Some of his more major indiscretions included faking injuries to stay out of jungyos (for which he was suspended) and punching someone out in a nightclub which led to his retirement--before the NSK had a chance to kick him out of sumo. There is absolutely no comparison between his behavior and Hakuho's.

When someone is a yokozuna, he's living in a fishbowl where his every action is examined with a microscope. If in any way, no matter how slight, his actions are deemed unworthy of his rank, he's criticized. I'm a big fan of both Chiyonofuji and Hakuho.  I never saw Taiho but in my opinion, they are the two greatest yokozunas ever.  Why must one of them be considered greater than the other? What they both have in common was that they're human and have human frailties. It's virtually impossible not to show those imperfections to a minor degree, especially when everyone seems to be looking for them. 

The problem with Asashoryu was while he may have been as technically proficient as Chiyonofuji and Hakuho,  the word dignity was never a part of his vocabulary. Thugs do not make very popular yokozunas, certainly not ones that can be referred to as "great".

Hakuho has always been a bully. He just got away with being the "white hat" for so long because he got to play against Asa's "black hat". Or do unnecessary extra shoves, launching off the doyho, forearm shivs, whining to the gyoji when it's not going your way demonstrate good behavior? His oyakata has been called before the P.T.B.s and told to deal with him, you know.

 

[Washuyama]

I think one of the reasons Chiyonofuji has the edge with whomever answered the poll is age.  It's probably safe to sa the majority of sumo fans now are probably 50+ years old.  That would make Chiyo most popular guy in their youth(or at least young adult years).   The image of him has stuck and probably grown and would be nearly impossible for anyone to pass him.

I also find it funny about the criticism of Hakuho.  Wasn't it just a few years ago when "everybody" was saying "Why doesn't Asashoryu act more like Hakuho?"  or similar sentiments.  I remember somebody mentioning back then that Hakuho had the hinkaku of a Japanese yokozuna.  My, how times have changed!

[Asashosakari]

I think a big part of the reason Chiyonofuji rated and continues to rate as highly popular is - and I know this will sound condescending - that he was the casual fans' favourite. He was charismatic, he was successful, and he was different. It's a package that's easy to like and doesn't require any deeper involvement with what makes Ozumo tick.

Asashoryu had the same thing going to a certain degree, but he didn't have Chiyonofuji's keen sense for how to behave in public to further support the easy-to-like image, so he ended up being polarizing instead. Nevertheless, while Hakuho will always have all the records to his name, when it comes to individual matches I suspect many people will be talking about Asashoryu's for a lot longer than they will Hakuho's, just like they do with Chiyonofuji's over Kitanoumi's.

But in the end, as soon as rikishi have retired from active competition, none of that is particularly relevant anymore. No amount of residual fan goodwill was able to get Chiyonofuji what he clearly wanted, a position at the Kyokai's top table. And that's why the hinkaku view of insiders is at least as important as that of the general public.

[Bumpkin]

If Y1e Hakuho (12-1) wins and M8e Aoiyama (11-2) losses, than the Yusho is Hakuho's.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Bumpkin

[Amamaniac]

15 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

If Y1e Hakuho (12-1) wins and M8e Aoiyama (11-2) losses, than the Yusho is Hakuho's.

If Hakuho loses the next two and Aoiyama wins the next two ...  who am I kidding?!

[Asashosakari]

Huh. Higohikari was chosen for 8th bout duty down in jonokuchi today and...won by fusen. Not sure I've seen that before.

[Amamaniac]

Just checked, and noticed that Aoiyama has an 12-5 record against Takekaze.  Despite the fact that Takekaze has won in their last two encounters and has fought relatively well in the current tournament, Aoiyama has a good chance of keeping his (jun) yusho run going.  Do we already know who Aoiyama is facing on Day 15?

[Katooshu]

Has there been a makuuchi yusho more unexpected than one for Aoiyama would be?

[Bumpkin]

38 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Just checked, and noticed that Aoiyama has an 12-5 record against Takekaze.  Despite the fact that Takekaze has won in their last two encounters and has fought relatively well in the current tournament, Aoiyama has a good chance of keeping his (jun) yusho run going.  Do we already know who Aoiyama is facing on Day 15?

No. The Day 15 torikumi is released about halfway through the Makuuchi bouts- After Aoiyama's match.

[Gurowake]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Huh. Higohikari was chosen for 8th bout duty down in jonokuchi today and...won by fusen. Not sure I've seen that before.

Why was there an 8th Jk match on Day 14?  I guess since they do all the torikumi for the three days at the same time, they can have the 8th match be on either of the latter days, but it would seem to make more sense if it was on Day 15.  That said, I've never paid attention before to what day it's on when necessary.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Gurowake

[Jakusotsu]

36 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Has there been a makuuchi yusho more unexpected than one for Aoiyama would be?

Several. Kyokutenho, Takatoriki, Kotonishiki...to just name the most recent.

[Jakusotsu]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Huh. Higohikari was chosen for 8th bout duty down in jonokuchi today and...won by fusen. Not sure I've seen that before.

Found only one other occasion:
http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=167&b=200511

Edit: ....which is not comparable since he was on the Juryo schedule.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Jakusotsu

[Chiyozakura]

I rarely write in the forum anymore but as my avatar here is a Chiyonoyama Tegata this might be a good reason to add a bit to the Chiyonofuji/Kokonoe discussion. Chiyonofuji was Chiyonoyama's pick as his successor. They came from the same area in Japan, both were very slim rikishi, Chiyonoyama like Chiyonofuji's determination and saw great things for him. Kitanofuji would not have been a good successor because age-wise he was too close to Chiyonoyama. So after his retirement he founded his own Izutsu Beya. Then Chiyonoyama died at only 51. Chiyonofuji was still at the start of his career and was only 21 years old. So Kitanofuji took over but only as a stop-gap until Chiyonofuji could take over. When Chiyonofuji finally retired both fullfilled their original mentor's wish in making Chiyonofuji Kokonoe Oyakata. That is why Chiyonofuji did not take the ichidai toshiyori. When former Yokozuna Hokutoumi founded his own heya Kitanofuji and the rest of the personell went with him. My take on this is because Hokutoumi was Kitanofuji's deshi while Chiyonofuji was Chiyonoyama's. Kitanofuji could concentrate on his career in the NSK which did not work out, but that is another story. I do not think Kitanofuji or anyone else was ousted from Kokonoe Beya, though.

I do not recall reading many negative stories from Chiyonofuji's active time. There was the hazing of Hokutenyu's brother but overall I think he was widely respected but not liked very much by his rivals. He was also very vocal in criticizing others. The story of Akebono visiting a restaurant while kyujo or his comments on Onokuni's training come to my mind. I doubt you will find any reliable sources that will tell the whole truth on Chiyonofuji's failed Oyakata career, though.

[sekitori]

3 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

 Do we already know who Aoiyama is facing on Day 15?

Since they seem to be selecting the weakest opposition possible for him, it could be someone in makushita--upper makushita, of course. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by sekitori

[Michishige]

3 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Just checked, and noticed that Aoiyama has an 12-5 record against Takekaze.  Despite the fact that Takekaze has won in their last two encounters and has fought relatively well in the current tournament, Aoiyama has a good chance of keeping his (jun) yusho run going.  Do we already know who Aoiyama is facing on Day 15?

They announced a few minutes ago that he's fighting Yoshikaze tomorrow. That should be a much more challenging match! I'm a fan of Aoiyama's (he's my favorite rikishi), but this whole basho has been like something from one of his daydreams. 

In my fantasy sumo video game, Aoiyama beats Yoshikaze and Hakuho throws his match against Harumafuji so he can face Aoiyama in a playoff and kick the stuffing out of him...just to show he's the boss. I don't think it will get that far, but I can enjoy the idea of it happening! 

[Jyuunomori]

11 minutes ago, sekitori said:

Since they seem to be going out of their way to find the most difficult opposition possible for him, it could be someone in makushita--upper makushita, of course. 

Aoiyama will face Yoshikaze, it will be a good bout. Aoiyama is now 12-2.

Shame that Ura hurt his leg, it clearly has an effect on his mobility. Tamawashi will probably win. Let's hope that Ura will salvage one win against Chiyonokuni to go to 7-8. At least Ura can take the Kinboshi home.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Jyuunomori

[Jakusotsu]

2 hours ago, Michishige said:

In my fantasy sumo video game, Aoiyama beats Yoshikaze and Hakuho throws his match against Harumafuji so he can face Aoiyama in a playoff and kick the stuffing out of him...just to show he's the boss. I don't think it will get that far, but I can enjoy the idea of it happening! 

Wouldn't it be an even juicier fantasy if Aoiyama uncharacteristically goes for a henka in the playoff and succeeds?

Edit: I think it's time to make amends. When Aoiyama joined Ozumo I wasn't thrilled about him in the least. I watched him live at the amateur World Championship in Estonia, and he left no other impression on me than being an awkward and obese kid. I never expected him to do any better than Masutoo (who has been mostly disappointing, by the way), but he turned into one of the most stable and reliable joi-jin rikishi around. Hats off, Daniel!

Edited July 22, 2017 by Jakusotsu

[Dapeng]

6 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

I rarely write in the forum anymore but as my avatar here is a Chiyonoyama Tegata this might be a good reason to add a bit to the Chiyonofuji/Kokonoe discussion. Chiyonofuji was Chiyonoyama's pick as his successor. They came from the same area in Japan, both were very slim rikishi, Chiyonoyama like Chiyonofuji's determination and saw great things for him. Kitanofuji would not have been a good successor because age-wise he was too close to Chiyonoyama. So after his retirement he founded his own Izutsu Beya. Then Chiyonoyama died at only 51. Chiyonofuji was still at the start of his career and was only 21 years old. So Kitanofuji took over but only as a stop-gap until Chiyonofuji could take over. When Chiyonofuji finally retired both fullfilled their original mentor's wish in making Chiyonofuji Kokonoe Oyakata. That is why Chiyonofuji did not take the ichidai toshiyori. When former Yokozuna Hokutoumi founded his own heya Kitanofuji and the rest of the personell went with him. My take on this is because Hokutoumi was Kitanofuji's deshi while Chiyonofuji was Chiyonoyama's. Kitanofuji could concentrate on his career in the NSK which did not work out, but that is another story. I do not think Kitanofuji or anyone else was ousted from Kokonoe Beya, though.

I do not recall reading many negative stories from Chiyonofuji's active time. There was the hazing of Hokutenyu's brother but overall I think he was widely respected but not liked very much by his rivals. He was also very vocal in criticizing others. The story of Akebono visiting a restaurant while kyujo or his comments on Onokuni's training come to my mind. I doubt you will find any reliable sources that will tell the whole truth on Chiyonofuji's failed Oyakata career, though.

Upon retirement Chyunofuji declined the ichidai offer but took the "Jinmaku" kabu and remained in Kokonoe heya. Many people thought he was modest to decline the honor of ichidai. After Hokutomi retired he remained in the heya too.

Eventually the former Kitanofuji yielded the heya to the former Chyunofuji and left NSK for good, and the former Hokutomi also left the heya.

Chyunofuji was a very successful rikishi but not very successful in NSK board and was voted out of office. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Dapeng