Ura, how high?

[Gurowake]

There were a ton of new Sekiwake recently, so there are lots of former ones and they're all over the banzuke.  Interestingly there are very few former Komusubi active right now, and the ones to most recently make Komusubi were Jokoryu and Chiyotairyu (same basho), and that was nearly 3 years ago.  The others are Chiyootori, Shohozan, and Gagmaru.  Mitakeumi still technically as well, but not for long.  Counting Mtakeumi, there will be 18 current/former Sekiwake still active in Nagoya.  My stats that I logged a few years ago indicated there were about the same number of former Sekiwake and former Komusubi, 71 and 72 (out of 7876 total rikishi) in the time period that I looked at (I didn't bother recording what time period that was though; it had 31 Ozeki and 27 Yokozuna).

[Kaminariyuki]

Thank you all for your comments on my first forum post! Particularly thanks to those who addressed my question of where Ura may fall in the next banzuke. Seems like a few of you think M1 to M4, which would put him up against the ozekis and yokozunae, which truly I'm just dying to watch. I also have no idea how he will fare, but along with Hakuho he's my favorite rikishi in my short history as a fan. I really want to see that first Hakuho-Ura match, even if it's not pretty.

A number of you have also used slang, acronyms and terminology that I don't know yet. Shows me what I already knew; that I don't know much about this sport yet. I'm a newbie. For some reason, though, it's grabbed me. My pal and I are intending to attend one day at the Kyushu Basho in November in Fukuoka. I was at the Kakugikan a week ago last Saturday when Hakuho clenched #38. Even though my boy, Ura, went down that day, it was still really cool to see it all in person, although when in country I really enjoy rolling into a little sports bar (my fav is in Ueno) and watching the NHK live show from 4-6. Now I need to go figure out exactly what joi is... ;)

[Washuyama]

Slightly off-topic, but I ask all those fairly new to sumo to look HERE.    Look at the (bad) banzuke luck this guy had between the time he first made Komusubi until he finally made Sekiwake.

[Bumpkin]

"Joi" are the top ranked rikishi in a particular division. Makuuchi joi refers to the top 16 rikishi, basically from Yokozuna to Maegashira 3.  Makushita joi refers to the top 30 rikishi, basically from Ms1e to Ms15w.

[Kaminariyuki]

This is such a great site! I found a couple of threads on joi and joijin. Enjoyed Washuyama's post of Kisenosato's past banzuke and records. The guy's been wrestling for a while and has had a couple of phenomenal stretches around 2011 and 2016/7. I talked to an old timer while watching one of the final days of the last basho and made a comment about all the foreign rikishi. He said "Everyone's equal in the dohyo." I was very impressed by that, although I still like seeing a Japanese yokozuna.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Thundersnow
spelling of name

[Asashosakari]

6 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Erm... Takekaze is 3cm shorter than Ura, and he's the oldest in makuuchi at 38 (Dang, Benihana beat me to it!). Toyonoshima is 6cm shorter and he was 36 before injury sent him down.

Both of them strike me as having styles that are a lot less prone to injury though. Takekaze's sumo is mainly about contact avoidance while Toyonoshima's is straight-up orthodox yotsu. Ura on the other hand has only been active for two years, one of them against credible competition, and I already seem to recall multiple situations where he courted grievous bodily harm through his own actions.

[Gurowake]

Ura could end up facing all the Y/O or none of them depending just on where he ends up (and how many top rikishi withdraw), as anywhere from M3e to M4e is reasonable.  Given the number of withdraws that have happened the last few basho though, he'll probably end up against most if not all regardless of rank.  Harumafuji, Terunofuji, Takayasu, and Kisenosato are slightly more likely opponents than the rest given their heya conflicts.

[Churaumi]

20 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Erm... Takekaze is 3cm shorter than Ura, and he's the oldest in makuuchi 

 

I think maybe you misinterpreted what I meant? I said I don't think he's going to last in the makuuchi joi because he depends heavily on his speed, and all athletes slow down as they age. I think he'll have a long career and an entertaining one at that, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. There's nothing wrong with a long juryo career, that's still in the top 10% of the sport. I'm just not on the yokozuna Ura bandwagon. He's already got one injury that is setting in to be chronic, that limits the use of his hand. I think his career is going to be all about improving his already amazing techniques and injury management.Small guys can do well, look at Harumafuji. But, they have to deal with the wear and tear of wrestling guys half again their size.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Churaumi
Autocorrect is not a sumo fan's friend.

[Katooshu]

Is there such a thing as the yokozuna Ura bandwagon?

[RabidJohn]

2 hours ago, Churaumi said:

I think maybe you misinterpreted what I meant? I said I don't think he's going to last in the makuuchi joi because he depends heavily on his speed, and all athletes slow down as they age. I think he'll have a long career and an entertaining one at that, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. There's nothing wrong with a long juryo career, that's still in the top 10% of the sport. I'm just not on the yokozuna Ura bandwagon. He's already got one injury that is setting in to be chronic, that limits the use of his hand. I think his career is going to be all about improving his already amazing techniques and injury management.Small guys can do well, look at Harumafuji. But, they have to deal with the wear and tear of wrestling guys half again their size.

You (and Asashosakari) make valid points. I agree that Ura continuing to do what he does now won't last long. Mind you, he still has speed in abundance even with all that extra weight, which I didn't expect to see. He can slow down quite a bit and still be way too fast for some rikishi.

He's developed a great deal since he rose to sekitori, though, and my faith in his ability to continue developing the physique and technique he's going to need won't be shattered until I see that development has definitely stopped.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I'm not exposed to any Japanese hype around Ura, so is there really a "yokozuna Ura bandwagon"? I thought I was at the optimistic end of the scale thinking that, if he develops as I hope he will, he may get a sanyaku KK one day!

[RabidJohn]

19 hours ago, Thundersnow said:

A number of you have also used slang, acronyms and terminology that I don't know yet.

You'll pick it up in no time!

Just ask if you don't know - someone will always explain.

Of all the internet forums I've been on, this one has the friendliest and most helpful community I've ever come across.

[Seijakuzan]

One thing I've noticed with Ura in this past basho is that he's much more aggressive.  As soon as he gets that opening he charges in on the belt with that ridiculously low center of gravity and it's over.  But he also got facepalmed directly into the dirt right off the tachiai at least once, so I think it's really going to come down to his tachiai.  

I've used an analogy before with Kotoshogiku when he was being very effective with mixing up his strategy between pushing his opponent to the edge and either 1) finishing the job or 2) suddenly shifting gears into a pulldown.  This is much like another Kazuhiro (Sasaki), who was a master of closing baseball games down by mixing the high hard fastballs with the splitters that fell off the table.  Kotoshogiku's yusho was a masterclass of such effective mixing up of strategy.  If Ura can develop an effective strategy of doing a 50/50 split of high impact tachiai and his usual feint-and-dive, be unreadable in whichever one is coming on a given matchup, and have a backup plan for each, his opponents will always be kept guessing.  I'll be ambitious and say he could eventually pull off a nice long streak in sanyaku if he can develop a better strategy to be less predictable.  Size and weight definitely aren't a huge problem at this point.

[Benihana]

Can we at least agree, that "how high" massively depends on the quality of the weed?

I already outed myself as Uramaniac, but there is no Yokozuna-bandwagon. He has the potential for becoming a joi-mainstay or even Ozeki, but to really think he can become Yokozuna, the weed has to be premium quality.

@Churaumi: You found the right place. Ask and we will go full-sumopedia on you 

Ooh...idea. Actually there is no sumo-wiki, at least none i can find...

Edited June 8, 2017 by Benihana

[Washuyama]

20 hours ago, Thundersnow said:

A number of you have also used slang, acronyms and terminology that I don't know yet. Shows me what I already knew; that I don't know much about this sport yet.

 

Also, on the home page of the forum is a glossary link at the top of the page that has all the relevant terms.  Or, as RabidJohn said, just ask.

[Akinomaki]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I've mentioned elsewhere that I'm not exposed to any Japanese hype around Ura, so is there really a "yokozuna Ura bandwagon"? I thought I was at the optimistic end of the scale thinking that, if he develops as I hope he will, he may get a sanyaku KK one day!

There only is the "Get Ura to sanyaku" bandwagon headed by Kitanofuji - he needed a new one after the former reached destination ("Get Kise to yokozuna").

[Shatsume]

On 2017-6-6 at 22:15, RabidJohn said:

Ura's already a fan favourite, but I'll be amazed if he matches Terao, who spent eight consecutive basho in sanyaku at his peak. 

Wow, 8 in a row, didn't realise! That must be close to a record? Yeah, Ura is not matching that...

To answer the original posters question (which I mis-understood to start with) I would say that Ura is a lock for one of the m3 positions next banzuke. 

[Kaminariyuki]

Yes, I reread my original post and it wasn't worded very clearly. In fact, I am very interested in all the commentary on this thread. I wanted to know where he's likely to land in the next banzuke, but I'm also interested to hear how he may fare in the long run. I've liked him since seeing a handful of Juryo bouts that were Youtubed on Jasnon's sumo page. Really, a few spectacular come-from-behind wins in Juryo. He definitely got squashed when I was at the tournament one day int the last basho. That said, a number of folks seemed to think he would struggle in his second Makuuchi basho, and he up and went 11-4. Not bad for a short guy in a pink mawashi! Before I go to the basho in Fukuoka in November I'm going to practice my calligraphy a bit and paint in kangi onto a pink t-shirt, "Ura Banzai!"

Edited June 8, 2017 by Thundersnow
grammar

[robnplunder]

6 hours ago, Churaumi said:

I think maybe you misinterpreted what I meant? I said I don't think he's going to last in the makuuchi joi because he depends heavily on his speed, and all athletes slow down as they age. I think he'll have a long career and an entertaining one at that, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. There's nothing wrong with a long juryo career, that's still in the top 10% of the sport. I'm just not on the yokozuna Ura bandwagon. He's already got one injury that is setting in to be chronic, that limits the use of his hand. I think his career is going to be all about improving his already amazing techniques and injury management.Small guys can do well, look at Harumafuji. But, they have to deal with the wear and tear of wrestling guys half again their size.

This post reminds me of Satoyama.  Despite his rank in juryo, I enjoy his bouts as much as I do Ura's.     Ura already has done better than Satoyama in terms of career ranking.  But Ura is one major injury away from riding the Makuuchi/Juryo elevator.   With a bit of luck, Ura will be a Makuuchi regular (even a joi, topping out at Sekiwake) and we will be enjoying his bouts for years to come. 

Takakeisho isn't any taller than Ura but he dominates him, and manhandles much bigger guys.   Ura can learn much from Takakeisho's style.

[rhyen]

8 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

There only is the "Get Ura to sanyaku" bandwagon headed by Kitanofuji - he needed a new one after the former reached destination ("Get Kise to yokozuna").

https://mobile.twitter.com/color_sumo/status/843250950999588869/photo/1

https://mobile.twitter.com/color_sumo/status/846875556146688001

https://mobile.twitter.com/color_sumo/status/864995244818939905

absolutely good material to poke fun at ex-Kitanofuji.

Edited June 9, 2017 by rhyen

[Jakusotsu]

14 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Is there such a thing as the yokozuna Ura bandwagon?

It's still resting in Kyokushuho's shed.

[Churaumi]

I suppose I should clarify, because sarcasm doesn't come through on forums well. I didn't actually mean to say people expect Ura to make yokozuna, more flippantly referring to those among us who believe he'll be a high makuuchi regular. Didn't expect that to become a thing, but that's why I like this forum, lively and unpredictable discussion.

[WAKATAKE]

I am firmly in the camp that Ura will be like Mainoumi. He will be an entertaining wrestler, and will earn himself to promotion, to sanyaku, but unfortunately his style will not get him beyond the lower levels, and I don't think he can make ozeki let alone yokozuna with it. As long as he can stay injury free, he will be a mainstay in makuuchi for a while. One thing that is different between him and Mainoumi, there really isn't an equivalent to Konishiki for Ura in makuuchi right now, nor do I think that there will be one anytime soon. That was one of the things that made Mainoumi so entertaining.

[rhyen]

14 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

I am firmly in the camp that Ura will be like Mainoumi. He will be an entertaining wrestler, and will earn himself to promotion, to sanyaku, but unfortunately his style will not get him beyond the lower levels, and I don't think he can make ozeki let alone yokozuna with it. As long as he can stay injury free, he will be a mainstay in makuuchi for a while. One thing that is different between him and Mainoumi, there really isn't an equivalent to Konishiki for Ura in makuuchi right now, nor do I think that there will be one anytime soon. That was one of the things that made Mainoumi so entertaining.

Aoiyama? Ichinojo (if he gets back up)?

[Asashosakari]

14 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

I am firmly in the camp that Ura will be like Mainoumi. He will be an entertaining wrestler, and will earn himself to promotion, to sanyaku, but unfortunately his style will not get him beyond the lower levels, and I don't think he can make ozeki let alone yokozuna with it. As long as he can stay injury free, he will be a mainstay in makuuchi for a while. One thing that is different between him and Mainoumi, there really isn't an equivalent to Konishiki for Ura in makuuchi right now, nor do I think that there will be one anytime soon. That was one of the things that made Mainoumi so entertaining.

Well, Kotoshogiku just needs to gain 75 kg to approximate the physical and career-state wreck that Konishiki was after his demotion from ozeki...

(In other words: I've never quite understood why so many people found the Mainoumi vs. late-career Konishiki freakshow entertaining.)

[WAKATAKE]

53 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Well, Kotoshogiku just needs to gain 75 kg to approximate the physical and career-state wreck that Konishiki was after his demotion from ozeki...

(In other words: I've never quite understood why so many people found the Mainoumi vs. late-career Konishiki freakshow entertaining.)

Now that you mention it they WILL be facing each other in Nagoya. That is guaranteed. But if Geek can keep up the bumpety prowess that he showed even with last basho's result, Ura won't be able to hold a candle to him. 

As far as Konishiki vs Mainoumi went, just watching videos of them facing each other, with the crowd as loud as it could be, made for classic David vs Goliath talk. People love to see an undersized dog win in those types of situations. As the saying goes, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."