BASHO TALK -- Natsu 2017 -- SPOILERS

[Dwale]

2 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

 As for Osunaarashi, no one has been injured more than him. 

And that makes me so, so very sad. 

[sekitori]

The one quality that Ura undeniably has is remarkable quickness. The reason he has been so successful recently is that his quickness has been under complete control and he reacts to a specific situation without hesitation. John Wooden, the great basketball coach, said this--"The most important attribute in any sport is quickness. Quickness must be under control. If it isn't under control, you have a lot of activity without achievement. I don't want activity without achievement".

Can Ura maintain that control as he rises on the banzuke against far better opposition? Will his activity continue to result in achievement when those competing against him become more familiar with his style? As they say on TV, "stay tuned".

 

 

[Tsuchinoninjin]

13 minutes ago, Dwale said:

And that makes me so, so very sad. 

Osunaarashi is the only tegata that I have, sigh.

[Dwale]

Just now, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Osunaarashi is the only tegata that I have, sigh.

Ah, lucky! I envy you that.

[Tsuchinoninjin]

Just now, Dwale said:

Ah, lucky! I envy you that.

Haha, I picked it up from the Kokugikan when there was a basho on in Fukouka so maybe it was a sign.

There was really nobody there at all, I think the shopkeep was a bit surprised.

[Rocks]

Asashosakari has an  excellent point (cherry-picked stats are my favorite) which is to know Ura is to beat Ura. See his record against Daieisho and Takakeisho. Another stat pointing to that is Ura's 3 playoff losses. His opponents in a basho who are doing well and are watching his style, beat him.

i'd like to point out Ura's most glaring problem which is he's too friggin small. Do a query for guys who have spent some time in sanyaku, you won't  find find a lot who's height start with 17 and of those the vast majority are not below 175 like Ura is. Do little guys beat big guys sometimes? Sure, as does Ura, but it's usually the big guys who are hurt or not sufficiently aggressive in a smart way like an Okinoumi. So from the git-go the odds are stacked against Ura.  Can Ura overcome those odds? I'd say not simply because to do so is so rare. Really the only guy that can  claim that in recent memory IMHO is Toyonoshima and Ura is not even close to him. Toyonoshima, truly unique for a small guy, had the strength to go to the belt with big guys and win sometimes. He was truly a league of his own.  Ura doesn't, and will never have IMO, that strength.

 

So what is the best case scenario for Ura in my opinion? Well, i'd say a career like the above average for a smaller guy which is a long time bouncing around Maegashira such as a Shohozan, Yoshikaze and Takakaze. Which is not a bad deal at all. But I'd don't give him great odds of doing that either. Why? He's simply not as good as them. Those kind of guys win multiple yusho in lower divisions save Takakaze who simply wasn't in lower divisions much at all. He only has 1 Yusho like Ura. What they do have that Ura lacks, and needs to develop IMO if he is too survive, is a very aggressive attitude. They are quite pissed off usually and love smacking the crap out of people and can take the same.  They aren't winning by speed and technique usually, despite having it as much as Ura, but by reminding the big guys there is going to be a cost to beat them, in pain, and they better be willing to pay it. Takakeisho is very like these guys and has a much larger upside than Ura IMO.

Far more likely for Ura IMO is he becomes Kotoyuki 2.0. Who, let's face it, can be a lot of fun. But even Kotoyuki has more attitude and  strength than Ura. Ura needs to develop his strength.  Without it he won't do much. The big guys at the top won't just keep doing the same dumb things against him like a Hokutofuji but even Hokutofuji is still learning. The sanyaku guys don't give away their advantage to smaller guys very often, they're patient and make the smaller guys beat them which usually only happens when they are hurt. Most often they just manhandle the crap out of guys like Ura.

[Rocks]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

He was hyped well before he even stepped on the Ozumo dohyo.  Videos of him as an amateur were going around at the time he announced he was entering.  He really stole the thunder from Hokutofuji, who should have been hyped more based on results, but Ura was just more spectacular.  I still don't think it'll work very well in the long-run, but I've been wrong plenty of times before.

This is another good point and one which can eventually work against Ura.  He's pretty much had smoke blown up his ass from day one, which helps. But unless you are a guy like Tiger Woods that smoke can hurt. Guys who are over hyped and have some moderate success often never change and adapt as needed to really get to the top and stay there. Guys like Hokutofuji and Takakeisho warranted more hype than Ura but didn't get it.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Rocks

[Katooshu]

19 hours ago, Rocks said:

Shodai is never going to be among the top if he loses to guys like Ura.

Ura is quite good, his sumo is very unusual and probably takes most rikishi some getting used to, and, besides, lots of ozeki and yokozuna have lost to rikishi who weren't among the elite few in the sport. Consistently dropping matches to rank and filers obviously hurts one's chances of breaking through to the elite ranks, but it's not like the top guys have always gone 100 percent against that level of opposition.

I mean, Haramafuji is barely over 50 percent against Yoshikaze (someone you compare to Ura), Kisenosato is just 4-3 against Endo, Tamawashi gets owned by Mitakeumi, yet puts up similar or better results overall, and so on. Sumo is the kind of sport where struggling with a particular opponent doesn't necessarily mean much...because you may well have the number of the other rikishi in that range.

If I recall correctly, Shodai had the best record in 2016 when it came to beating higher ranked opponents.

Quote

This is another good point and one which can eventually work against Ura.  He's pretty much had smoke blown up his ass from day one, which helps. But unless you are a guy like Tiger Woods that smoke can hurt. Guys who are over hyped and have some moderate success often never change and adapt as needed to really get to the top and stay there. Guys like Hokutofuji and Takakeisho warranted more hype than Ura but didn't get it.

Perhaps, and perhaps the hype won't hurt him at all. Maybe the attention and support motivates him to train harder, and he's certainly shown willingness to add the pounds needed for him to make an impact in the top division.

Also, I think questions about who deserves what amount of hype are very debatable. Hokutofuji was a more accomplished amateur than Ura, but does he bring the same entertainment and rare techniques to the dohyo? I am a Hokutofuji fan, but I can certainly understand why people would be more excited about watching Ura, and that doesn't necessarily mean they think he's better than Hokutofuji (or Takakeisho).

Even going strictly by performance quality though, Ura became a sekitori exceptionally quickly, moved through juryo with 4 KK in 5 tournaments, and seems on his way to a special prize in his second makuuchi basho, so the hype has some basis in the results.

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Katooshu

[robnplunder]

Did anyone mention the low center of gravity of Ura supported by ever bulging huge thighs.   Coupled with his quickness, flexibility, and increased weight, I think he can be a mainstay as a joi.   Can he be a Sanyaku regular?   I doubt it.   The main reason being that (IMO) he is too small to take the pounding from all the bashos.  All the beating he takes will wear him down sooner than it would bigger guys.   

[Katooshu]

Yes, his balance is exceptional. Becoming more familiar with his style will help, but I still expect most rikishi to struggle with actually getting him out of there.

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Katooshu

[Bumpkin]

One thing we can all agree on is that we will all be watching Ura with great anticipation in July as he takes on the joi for the very first time.

[Rocks]

7 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

His balance is exceptional. Even if rikishi know his approach, I still expect most to struggle with actually getting him out of there...

That's the main problem people have with facing Ura, they try to get him out of there. Smaller guys need the bigger guys to be aggressive and move forward towards the end of the ring as they sure the heck ain't pushing them there. It nullifies the advantage the big guys have. Once they think they have Ura out he jumps out of the way of their final push and pushes them out. It's pretty pathetic the way guys fall for this over and over, not just against Ura. They should watch how a guy Ura's size, like Takakeisho, handles him which is to hold back at tachi-ai, stay in the middle of the ring and keeping pushing him back till he is ACTUALLY off balance or badly out of position and go for the kill. Or just pound him down like a Tochinoshin. instead too many big guys are like " I'll beat this shrimp easy!" and rush at him. Dumb. But those big guys aren't at the top much either.

[Fukurou]

Ura, creature of media promotion he is, is Endo, creature of media promotion he was, before the knee injuries. Endo wasn't able to (and still can't) handle the Joi well enough to become one of them.

[Bumpkin]

2 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Ura, creature of media promotion he is, is Endo, creature of media promotion he was, before the knee injuries. Endo wasn't able to (and still can't) handle the Joi well enough to become one of them.

Is this the same Endo that just beat a Yokozuna and two Ozekis?

[rhyen]

1 minute ago, Bumpkin said:

Is this the same Endo that just beat a Yokozuna and two Ozekis?

Probably, and with a 4-7 record at this stage, teetering on the brink of MK. 

[Jakusotsu]

2 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Is this the same Endo that just beat a Yokozuna and two Ozekis?

Yeah, the same that just lost to three Yokozuna and three Sekiwake.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[d_golem]

Very nice discussion about our favourite, opinion-dividing rikishi. Thoroughly enjoyed reading each and every post.

Quickness important? Very. Ura is one of if not the quickest and nimblest, not to mention the most flexible and lightning-fast reflexes too.

Balance? Of course. For his size, IMO he's in the top two or three in makuuchi.

Ring sense? Vital. Probably the best in makuuchi.

Size? Definitely helps, and that's unfortunately the one thing Ura can't change.

Aggressiveness? Yes he can improve on that. However it's refreshing to see a rikishi so respectful and ice-cool under any circumstance and no matter what the opponent did to him (I'm looking at you, Takakeisho).

Toughness? He hasn't thoroughly tested in that regard yet, but I think he's as tough as anyone in the top rank.

However above all that's been said above and many other things that denote a good rikishi, personally I think Ura's biggest asset is what's inside of his noggin. I think the one who knows best what Ura can do and full potential is Ura himself, followed closely by his coaches. However only Ura knows what Ura will do, and I'm always fascinated by his pre-bout rituals. No Ura-Bauer, no excessive mawashi-slapping or salt-throwing, nothing. He always has his eyes locked firmly onto his opponent whenever he can during pre-bout. When he goes to his corner, he always twirls his hand and mumbles a bit, as if to recount and remember all the strategies and moves in his head. I'm tempted to say he might be the brainiest of all rikishi, the Sun Tzu of sumo, and I reckon his brain comes with great patience too.

[Fukurou]

Just now, Bumpkin said:

Is this the same Endo that just beat a Yokozuna and two Ozekis?

Does he do it regularly or every so often? Every dog has his day. This is the guy who is 0-7 (about to be 0-8) in earning a KK while ranked M4 or higher (facing the Joi). Up he comes, down he goes.

[Rocks]

6 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Ura, creature of media promotion he is, is Endo, creature of media promotion he was, before the knee injuries. Endo wasn't able to (and still can't) handle the Joi well enough to become one of them.

Endo, despite the hype, is a bit different. He has the size and ability, his problem is he's a head case and he doesn't learn very well which may be a product of him thinking he doesn't need to because he gets the cash and attention anyway. He can beat the big guys but he makes the same fundamental mistakes over and over. Or he just gives up. or even try very hard, if it's a guy he doesn't beat regularly.

[Katooshu]

Ura is not Endo. He may well repeatedly fall short high up the rankings as Endo does, but he may not.

Anyway, at least in the English speaking sumo community, I don't think the hype comes as much from the supposed promise as it does from the highly entertaining, unusual, giant killing style. That's why I think it misses the point to say he's overhyped based on his results, which are still pretty damn good and separate him from other small, entertaining rikishi like Satoyama and Ishiura.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Katooshu

[Tsuchinoninjin]

Now that Kisenosato has 'solved' all his mental issues now Endo and Ura caught the mind bug, huh? I guess they need to build an annex onto the Kokugikan for a Psychiatrist's Office. 

[Kuroyama]

3 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Now that Kisenosato has 'solved' all his mental issues now Endo and Ura caught the mind bug, huh? I guess they need to build an annex onto the Kokugikan for a Psychiatrist's Office. 

As the Great Philosopher said, "Baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical." That's true for any sport, not just baseball, sumo not least of all. What other sport actually has an official preparation time for combatants to attempt to psyche each other out? Would either Hakuho or Asashoryu have been as great without the supreme confidence they project backing up their superb physical abilities?

There's a lot that can go wrong in the head. With Kisenosato, it was probably jitters; a lack of the kind of confidence the dai-yokozuna possess which he could have justifiably seized upon a long time ago given his ability. With Endo, @Rocks was proposing something else entirely, an inability to learn from past experience. Trying the same thing over and over in the hopes it will work this time is futility itself.

I may have missed it above, but no one is talking about Ura as a head case. Rather the opposite.

[Rocks]

24 minutes ago, Kuroyama said:

With Endo, @Rocks was proposing something else entirely, an inability to learn from past experience. Trying the same thing over and over in the hopes it will work this time is futility itself.

I may have missed it above, but no one is talking about Ura as a head case. Rather the opposite.

That's correct. It's amazing the way Endo loses in almost exactly the same way to Harumafuji each time. It might change slightly but it starts with Endo not keeping his head up. only an idiot would put your head down in front of Harumafuji or Hakuho. Ura is no head case that's for sure.

[Asojima]

Toyonoshima - 3/3 at Ms19e

[808morgan]

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

Endo, despite the hype, is a bit different. He has the size and ability, his problem is he's a head case and he doesn't learn very well which may be a product of him thinking he doesn't need to because he gets the cash and attention anyway. He can beat the big guys but he makes the same fundamental mistakes over and over. Or he just gives up. or even try very hard, if it's a guy he doesn't beat regularly.

I wonder about Endo, does he really want to be there or did he find a little fame so he is making that money while he can? Even Juryo make good money, I think. Endo looks pretty unmotivated, hard to tell. Maybe I missed a good interview with him.

Edited May 25, 2017 by 808morgan