Questions For Kintamayama

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm not sure I understand. There's no legal connection there; the marriage simply provides the reason that kabu and heya are eventually being transferred to rikishi A instead of rikishi B. Surely this isn't a particularly unusual concept? Sons-in-law are inheriting/taking over family businesses all over the world.

Sure, a son-in-law could take over a family business but that certainly isn't required here. Any business could be transferred by paying them money (private) or buying enough shares (public). It certainly is not a common practice to marry into a business here anymore. It might have been true a long time ago. Certainly no one here gets adopted to get into a business. For the inheritance to work here the current oyakata would have to die, not just retire.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Harry

[Asashosakari]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Sure, a son-in-law could take over a family business but that certainly isn't required here. Any business could be transferred by paying them money (private) or buying enough shares (public).

I still don't see any difference. Any of those "coulds" apply to sumo as well. Are you assuming that all the aforementioned daughter/rikishi marriages were entirely marriages of convenience?

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I still don't see any difference. Any of those "coulds" apply to sumo as well. Are you assuming that all the aforementioned daughter/rikishi marriages were entirely marriages of convenience?

I am certainly talking about marriages of convenience where the main purpose was to get the kabu. The way it was phrased above, "certainly the easiest (cheapest) way to get a kabu is to marry the daughter..." implies to me that you are marrying the daughter to get the kabu, not getting the kabu because you happened to marry her.

Edit: perhaps to turn it around, is there anything else that you cannot transfer in Japan by purchasing it with money but which you can gain by marrying the daughter of the current owner?

Edit2: are these just contractual obligations? Contracts which must be in place after every sale? Is this like some other sports leagues where a "team owner" is not really a free team owner to sell the team to anyone for any price, where all the owners need to agree to the sale and price before it can take place? I'm just wondering are these general legal requirements for sale of any business kabu or are they special contracts imposed by the Kyokai for the sale of sumo kabu only?

I don't have a business background and it likely shows. Perhaps my questions are stupid and no one should worry about them but it seems odd and old fashioned to me to see something which can be transferred by marriage but not by monetary means.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Harry

[Asashosakari]

21 minutes ago, Harry said:

I am certainly talking about marriages of convenience where the main purpose was to get the kabu. The way it was phrased above, "certainly the easiest (cheapest) way to get a kabu is to marry the daughter..." implies to me that you are marrying the daughter to get the kabu, not getting the kabu because you happened to marry her.

That's certainly not the implication unless you're assuming that the daughters of oyakata have no free will. Marriage may be the cheapest option to get a kabu even nowadays, but it needs to be an available option in the first place for it to be relevant. (In other words: The easiest way to get $100 is to find a $100 bill in the street... Easiest doesn't necessarily mean "most doable".)

I won't profess to have any special insights into these families, but from the recent sumo marriages, I think the only one that's widely considered to have been out of convenience was Kanechika's to ex-Miyagino's daughter. Asahiyutaka's divorce seemed to be a case where a regular marriage simply broke down and things then got ugly, and Takatoriki's divorce was a bit of a weird thing where nobody seemed fully sure about cause and effect. (The competing theories were a) it was a marriage of convenience and after he got thrown out of the Kyokai there was no reason to stay married, and b) the marriage was mutually dissolved to protect Taiho's reputation because it looked bad to have a sumo pariah as the family member of the most beloved living dai-yokozuna, but Takatoriki essentially remained a family member except for legal purposes. I have no idea which one is true, if any.)

Anyway, Ozumo is a very close-knit society - some oyakata try to keep their kids away from their "day job", but for others it's been perfectly normal to have them roam around the heya. I reckon it's not that surprising that at least a few 20-something-year-old women who've spent most of their lives around sumo wrestlers would happen to fall in love with one of them.

Historically, getting adopted was probably at least as important an avenue to a kabu as getting married, if only because it doesn't require the involvement of a third party.

 

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

That's certainly not the implication unless you're assuming that the daughters of oyakata have no free will. Marriage may be the cheapest option to get a kabu even nowadays, but it needs to be an available option in the first place for it to be relevant. (In other words: The easiest way to get $100 is to find a $100 bill in the street... Easiest doesn't necessarily mean "most doable".)

I won't profess to have any special insights into these families, but from the recent sumo marriages, I think the only one that's widely considered to have been out of convenience was Kanechika's to ex-Miyagino's daughter. Asahiyutaka's divorce seemed to be a case where a regular marriage simply broke down and things then got ugly, and Takatoriki's divorce was a bit of a weird thing where nobody seemed fully sure about cause and effect. (The competing theories were a) it was a marriage of convenience and after he got thrown out of the Kyokai there was no reason to stay married, and b) the marriage was mutually dissolved to protect Taiho's reputation because it looked bad to have a sumo pariah as the family member of the most beloved living dai-yokozuna, but Takatoriki essentially remained a family member except for legal purposes. I have no idea which one is true, if any.)

Anyway, Ozumo is a very close-knit society - some oyakata try to keep their kids away from their "day job", but for others it's been perfectly normal to have them roam around the heya. I reckon it's not that surprising that at least a few 20-something-year-old women who've spent most of their lives around sumo wrestlers would happen to fall in love with one of them.

Historically, getting adopted was probably at least as important an avenue to a kabu as getting married, if only because it doesn't require the involvement of a third party.

 

Thanks again. I suppose falling in love with the men in your father's heya wouldn't be that uncommon.

Certainly I don't think adult adoption happens here for that purpose but I think it happens more often in Asia? I'm not sure. Perhaps I should not speak or ask of such things when I know little.

[Akinomaki]

3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Are these arranged marriages? Does the bride-to-be have any say?

Asahiyutaka and Kotonowaka were the best looking rikishi around - maybe the daughter tells her father whom to chose. There was an article in a German tabloid once about Mr. and Mrs. Kotonowaka, titled "His belly is mine".

Arranged marriages have always been very common in Japan anyway - and also muko-iri marriages, where the son-in-law gets adopted and takes on/over and preserves the prestigious family name.

The really successful rikishi who have no problem to get a kabu may rather marry girls from the glamour world.

Marrying the daughter of a (very rich and influential) koenkai member may also have been a way to get a kabu quicker - and those girls have the best  opportunities to meet the rikishi in private.

I meant to say, the relation to the former holder is decisive: and to create a very close one with marriage/adoption is the best thing. That is of course only possible if the affection towards each other has already grown naturally, rather not something to integrate into a career plan to get a kabu - though maybe Kanechika worked that way.  Being the son anyway of course also makes it easy.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Akinomaki

[Orion]

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Asahiyutaka and Kotonowaka were the best looking rikishi around - maybe the daughter tells her father whom to chose. There was an article in a German tabloid once about Mr. and Mrs. Kotonowaka, titled "His belly is mine".

 

The story going around at the time was that Sadogatake  (former Y. Kotozakura) was leaning fairly hard on Kotonowaka to marry his daughter but he wasn't too keen at first. He eventually came round and the marriage was -- and still is --  a very happy one.  It was never said that the daughter was the one who wanted the marriage -- but of course it makes perfect sense, now you mention it! 

Orion

[RabidJohn]

I'd always assumed that such marriages were a natural consequence of oyakata's daughters being in close proximity to the rikishi.

That revelation (to me at least) of Akebono refusing such a marriage clearly implied that an arrangement had been suggested, and Orion's anecdote shows that in some cases it has been more than suggested!

Now I'm wondering if okami-san go out and vet suitable young ladies to introduce to their rikishi? It wouldn't surprise me.

I realise this is nothing like a parallel with those marriages arranged at birth by the parents in some countries, but the very thought of suggesting to some young man that he ought to consider marrying one of my daughters (I have two, 25 and 20) is totally alien to me. And I shudder to imagine my daughters' reactions if they ever found out I had!

Having said that, the advantages of marrying my boss's daughter did once cross my mind... 

[Jejima]

On 10/27/2016 at 01:41, Harry said:

Sumo seems to be the last holdout for many old customs in Japan. Can you transfer any other sort of business equity by marrying the current owner's daughter, or is this unique to sumo kabu today? 

From my memory (so needs to be fact-checked)....

The majority of legal adoptions in Japan are not for children, but for for adult males (usually not the eldest son of a family).  These are men who have married daughters of parents with no sons.  They become 'adopted' by their wife's parents, and will take on their wife's family name.  This allows them to 'inherit' whatever business their 'new' parents have.

Additionally, it is the Japanese custom for the eldest son (not daughter) and his family to live with his parents, until their death.  (They will help look after any grandchildren etc). So, the above mentioned 'adopted sons' also help the new 'parents' in their later life....

Edited October 28, 2016 by Jejima

[RabidJohn]

I can't remember where I saw or read this (certainly before I started lurking here and it wasn't in relation to sumo), but it's my understanding these adult male adoptions can take place independently of any marriage arrangements.

If the natural offspring prove themselves unsuitable or too inept to continue a family business, someone with the right attributes will be adopted to take over the business and continue the family name. I'm sure the story I saw concerned a very large Japanese corporation, but I don't remember which one.

[Kishinoyama]

4 hours ago, Jejima said:

.....Additionally, it is the Japanese custom for the eldest son (not daughter) and his family to live with his parents, until their death.  (They will help look after any grandchildren etc).....

That is exactly what happened in my wife's family. 

Additionally, my wife's mother and father adopted her nephew after her older sister got divorced and remarried. I guess the feeling is a child from the first marriage might cause problems in the new marriage. I don't know if these things are still commonplace or if they are now rare events. 

[Harry]

Thanks everyone! I knew about these things happening historically in Japan but wasn't sure if they were still occurring. Thanks for confirming.

[Akinomaki]

8 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

Seeing as how Akebono was already married and Takamiyama only has a son (afaik) I can imagine the refusal came as a shock all round.

The story began before it became known he was married - there was a - maybe adopted? - daughter. He did chose to marry against the will of the koenkai and the oyakata - and lost the koenkai and the chance to get a kabu.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki]

4 hours ago, John Gunning said:

I can't find any info about any daughter Takamiyama had searching just now but maybe the people who know him better can confirm whether or not one exists. Where did you get that story?

I doubt that I can find the old articles, it was from the usual sumo pages of the Japanese newspapers - from the time around his retirement. (I have some 18 year old archives, but not as a database)

Edited October 29, 2016 by Akinomaki

[Adil]

1 hour ago, John Gunning said:

I can't find any info about any daughter Takamiyama had searching just now but maybe the people who know him better can confirm whether or not one exists. Where did you get that story?

Totally off-topic, John, but how come all three links (Twitter, Instagram, & FB) to your social networking sites are broken? Or is it just me?

[Akinomaki]

4 hours ago, John Gunning said:

I can't find any info about any daughter Takamiyama had searching just now but maybe the people who know him better can confirm whether or not one exists. Where did you get that story?

I couldn't find the article - only the story in some uninformed comments from 2ch and chiebukuro, of people who apparently had read that in the same or a similar article in the past.

https://www.google.de/search?q=高見山の娘&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=MYUUWLWvOK-g8wej6a3wDw

Looks more like a rumor that had made it into an article of maybe a more tabloid like paper (like Yuukan Fuji's zakzak).

Edited October 29, 2016 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki]

3 hours ago, John Gunning said:

Yes but the refusal and the reason for the koenkai disbanding was his refusal to marry the girl he was originally engaged to (talento Yu Aihara) who is no relation of the oyakata

A koenkai wouldn't disband just because an engagement with some talento was called off. They dissolved after he had married the wrong girl years later.

Maybe Akebono wrote the whole story in his book - there is a chapter about this - has anybody here read it?

Edited October 29, 2016 by Akinomaki

[hamcornheinz]

2 hours ago, John Gunning said:

The book "Gaijin Yokozuna" makes Akebono come across as whiny in my option which couldn't be further from the kind of man he actually is in person. Chad is thoughtful, introspective, humble and hardworking. 

Didn't seem whiny when I read it a while ago, although it did seem he had a strained relationship with his boss. 

[Akinomaki]

On 29.10.2016 at 23:12, John Gunning said:

Oh and does Jesse have a secret daughter?

I don't think she is secret - she often appeared in texts and nobody else there points out that she actually doesn't exist. The o-kami-san mentioned her as a 15 year old in a book from 1993 - maybe she abandoned her dad when he got divorced and nobody mentions her anymore ? The rumor which can't be verified is not that she exists, but that a marriage was planned - she was a bit too young, 8, 9 years younger than Akebono, so rather not.

BTW, rumors also have it that the koenkai wasn't fond of Aihara Yu.

http://blog.nikkansports.com/sports/legend/2008/05/post_95.html :

Quote

７９年５月に１１代目東関親方（元前頭朝登）が角界を去った。株が空いたため、同年９月に国籍変更を申請。翌８０年夏場所後の６月３日、異例のスピードで 許可された。夫人の旧姓としこ名から命名した「日本人・渡辺大五郎」が誕生。長男弓太郎、長女理江も同時に日本人になった。

 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Akinomaki

[ronnie]

Do rikishi shave their underarms?

[ryafuji]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 07:44, Akinomaki said:

A koenkai wouldn't disband just because an engagement with some talento was called off. They dissolved after he had married the wrong girl years later.

Maybe Akebono wrote the whole story in his book - there is a chapter about this - has anybody here read it?

I haven't but Jonosuke did and he posted about it years ago....... if it helps at all here it is:

 

[Akinomaki]

14 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

I haven't but Jonosuke did and he posted about it years ago....... if it helps at all here it is:

A bit, but not much, that is not about his book from 2012 (unlikely though that he tells more in it than in the interviews of that biography about him).

Edited October 31, 2016 by Akinomaki

[ryafuji]

11 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

A bit, but not much, that is not about his book from 2012 (unlikely though that he tells more in it than in the interviews of that biography about him).

Just to be clear, Jonosuke was not talking about Gajin Yokokuna, but Akebono's own book Yokozuna.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/横綱-曙-太郎/dp/4104493015/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

[Akinomaki]

3 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Just to be clear, Jonosuke was not talking about Gajin Yokokuna, but Akebono's own book Yokozuna.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/横綱-曙-太郎/dp/4104493015/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Ah, that's why it seemed profound. It was published just after the events, that makes it even more unlikely that the new one has more details - this is more about sumo as a whole. In the chapter about sekitori and money about what a koenkai does and one section "the choice to marry the woman you love".

And the rumor has appeared on the forum before in the post Jonosuke commented on:

On 15.4.2005 at 14:28, Susanoo said:

Akebono refused marriage with Oyakata's daughter which Oyakata wished for

Akebono's old book is down to 1yen 2nd hand (+257yen postage in Japan) - the new one wasn't cheap enough for me yet, maybe I get the old one next.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn]

Right, time to blow the dust off this thread!

On Friday yokozuna Kisenosato will perform his first unryu-style dohyo-iri at the Meiji shrine. I know he's using moto-yokozuna Takanosato's kesho-mawashi set, but what about the katana Takayasu will be carrying for the first time?

What's the deal with the sword? Does he get it at the same time as his license and tsuna, or is it obtained separately? Is it a Kyokai, Ichimon or Heya heirloom, or does Kise have to visit someone like Hattori Hanzo off of Kill Bill?