Kise's Konundrum

[Rocks]

12 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

Why would they have to promote both? It is a borderline case and while Kisenosato has been on the border for quite a while Goeido has been a terrible Ozeki. Even if he wins two yusho back to back there would be good arguments not to promote him.

I think both because the YDC has painted itself into a corner with trying to get Kise his white rope.

[Katooshu]

I don't really think they'd be backed into a corner. There are clear and substantial differences in the quality of Kise and Goeido's ozeki performances they can use to justify promoting the former (even if not everyone agrees with that promotion) but not the latter.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Katooshu

[Jejima]

On 9/19/2016 at 11:53, Andonishiki said:

in my humble opinion, there should NEVER EVER be a Yokozuna promotion without a Yusho... (not even douten)

Yokozuna means 'Grand Champion'
and a great quote from Ayrton Senna has the perfect description: "Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose"

How can you dare to call yourself a Grand Champion, if you've never won a tournament ???

period.

Ever heard of this Yokozuna?

[Andonishiki]

18 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

Maybe you check the dictionary again because Yokozuna does not mean Grand Champion. That is just an attempt to use a known English term which in reality misses the point.

 

Dear Chiyosakura,

you should listen to the legendary Native Hawaiian singer Israel "Iz" Kamakawiwo'ole and his song 'YOKOZUNA' from the album N Dis Life
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_Dis_Life
It's great song about Akebono & Takanohana rivalry and the lyrics are - Yokozuna, Grand Champion !

I believe Israel knew Akebono and Konishiki in person, probably also Musashimaru.
Better don't mess with these guys...

But it doesn't really matter if you translate Yokozuna as 'Grand Champion' or just ' highest ranked' in Sumo.
The dohyo-iri ceremony proves the importance of the rank and also the fact that so far 71 humans ever have reached that rank.

I stick to my opinion: no yusho -> no yokozuna

[Jejima]

2 minutes ago, Andonishiki said:

I stick to my opinion: no yusho -> no yokozuna

Luckily, Kisenosato does have a yusho - he got it back January 2004 .

Personally, I would prefer to see a rikishi have 2 or 3 MAKUNOUCHI yushos under his mawashi before promotion to the top rank.  Kaio won 5 yushos (more than some Yokozunas), and never progressed past Ozeki.  I think that Kaio was more deserving of getting promotion to Yokozuna than the present day Kisenosato....

My post above refers to the 60th Yokozuna who NEVER won a Makunouchi yusho, prior to nor after his promotion to the top rank.

[Andonishiki]

Futahaguro.... the guy who beat his tsukibito  - that led to a big scandal

[Katooshu]

20 hours ago, Jejima said:

Luckily, Kisenosato does have a yusho - he got it back January 2004 .

Personally, I would prefer to see a rikishi have 2 or 3 MAKUNOUCHI yushos under his mawashi before promotion to the top rank.  Kaio won 5 yushos (more than some Yokozunas), and never progressed past Ozeki.  I think that Kaio was more deserving of getting promotion to Yokozuna than the present day Kisenosato....

My post above refers to the 60th Yokozuna who NEVER won a Makunouchi yusho, prior to nor after his promotion to the top rank.

Look at all the tournaments Kaio pulled out of after floundering early....do those not count for some reason? I know some people focus on yusho wins, but to me another consideration is whether a rikishi produces good numbers from basho to basho, rather than going 12-3, 11-4, 0-15, 12-3, 2-13, 0-15. Kise doesn't have that volatility to his peformance, and considering his consistently strong results as ozeki, which see him regularly outperforming yokozuna and finishing near the top of the table, I think with even one yusho he'd deserve the highest rank as much as the guy who would have probably sat out every other tournament as yokozuna.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Katooshu

[sadanoumi_is_my_favorite]

18 hours ago, Jejima said:

Ever heard of this Yokozuna?

From Wikipedia: 
" After this result [losing in a playoff to the yokozuna] the Japan Sumo Association were faced with a difficult decision as there was only one yokozuna on the ranking lists, but five ōzeki, with a sixth wrestler - Hoshi (who would become yokozuna Hokutoumi), winner of the March 1986 tournament, already performing to ōzeki standard. The Association decided to promote Kitao to yokozuna and Hoshi to ōzeki. Kitao had won 36 bouts in the last three tournaments and been runner-up in the last two, so the defacto promotion standard of "two tournament championships or the equivalent" was interpreted rather loosely. He was just 22 years old and the first person to be promoted to yokozuna without any top division tournament titles since Terukuni in 1942. "

" The decision to promote Futahaguro backfired and he proved to be a great embarrassment to the sumo establishment. His debut as a yokozuna in the September 1986 tournament saw him pull out on the seventh day with only three wins, and after two runner-up scores in November 1986 and January 1987 a series of mediocre performances followed. His best result as a yokozuna came in November 1987 when he was runner-up for the seventh time, with a 13-2 record. "

It doesn't seem that Futahaguro should serve as an example of a qualification for becoming yokozuna because he obviously didn't live up to the expectations inherent in the position. He only wrestled as yokozuna in 8 bashos and only got more than 9 wins in 4 of them.

[K. Sear]

3 hours ago, sadanoumi_is_my_favorite said:

It doesn't seem that Futahaguro should serve as an example of a qualification for becoming yokozuna because he obviously didn't live up to the expectations inherent in the position. He only wrestled as yokozuna in 8 bashos and only got more than 9 wins in 4 of them.

In all fairness, Futahaguro wasn't sent into retirement due to his in ring performances, which weren't really that bad.  With only 8 basho before expulsion it seems likely he would have won at least once if he had been able to compete longer.

[bettega]

... and it's gone. Again. And to Goeido - it must hurt.

[Kaibun]

Well, I'd say Kise has a big yusho chance this time. Hakuho isn't around and the yokuzuna just keep slipping up. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

Though he did manage to waste a lot his chances in the last few times.

[Benevolance]

... and it's gone. Again. And to Goeido - it must hurt.

Never overestimate Goeidou. He has within him the power to surprise us all. 

[Asojima]

 

And here we go again!!!