Podcast - Yaocho discussion

[hamcornheinz]

Kisenosato has the 2nd best record against Hakuho, if my recollection is correct. The man chokes, but that doesn't mean his wrestling isn't top notch. How bout a little respect. Also, if you want people to take you seriously, you have to at least be right twice. You know, the broken clock thing.

[SkinnySumo]

time is getting ripe for the overlord to give one up

it fits the script for kotoyuki to win day 8 over hakuho

You want to know where else you could fit that script?

[Otokonoyama]

Moderator Notice

Step back and chillax, folks.

[Pandaazuma]

There's probably a reason Hakuho won today and didn't 'give one up'. I can think of an obvious reason, but no doubt another one will be supplied.

[hamcornheinz]

so Wuli, why was your prediction wrong.

Edited May 15, 2016 by hamcornheinz

[wuli]

so you see kisenosato as in the same league as hakuho?

we have dramatically different experiences then

i contend that hakuho remains the overlord of sumo, just as in past years

most of his 'losses' are actually gifts and nobody yushos without his withdrawal

kise', in contrast, can only hold on to ozeki with substantial gifts

no comparison

i guess anyone who can swallow the 'giku miracle will not have trouble in swallowing kise', too

as it stands, it looks like hakuho will either pluck another yusho for his bouquet, or toss one to kise', if he can hang on to it

[wuli]

time is getting ripe for the overlord to give one up

it fits the script for kotoyuki to win day 8 over hakuho

You want to know where else you could fit that script?

well, aloha skinny

yes, i'd love to hear your imaginative ideas for script fitting

even better, can you contribute something regarding yaocho?

is goeido still a contender for this yusho, for example? does he hold ozeki by virtue of skill and fighting spirit, or has he been getting by on heavy gifting?

[hamcornheinz]

so Wuli, why, if you have so much knowledge, are your predictions consistently incorrect? That's all we want to know. We are statistical creatures, after all, us humans.

Edited May 15, 2016 by hamcornheinz

[wuli]

so Wuli, why, if you have so much knowledge, are your predictions consistently incorrect? That's all we want to know. We are statistical creatures, after all, us humans.

here we go again

please note, thread topic is not wuli; try to let go of this obsession

so, since you see kisenosato as great, and he is listed as a co-leader so far, do you expect him to win the yusho?

what other possible story lines are you able to see?

[hamcornheinz]

so Wuli, why, if you have so much knowledge, are your predictions consistently incorrect? That's all we want to know. We are statistical creatures, after all, us humans.

here we go again

please note, thread topic is not wuli; try to let go of this obsession

so, since you see kisenosato as great, and he is listed as a co-leader so far, do you expect him to win the yusho?

what other possible story lines are you able to see?

No, I don't expect him to win the yusho, he chokes. That doesn't mean he's not a great wrestler. Kisenosato is the cream of the crop. And the topic is not Wuli, but in normal discourse, we take responsibility for our words. Why don't you do the same.

[wuli]

agreed, we can take responsibility for our words

if you go back and dig, you'll find i was calling out the 'giku fix, well in advance

however, predictions neither prove nor disprove yaocho

they are just a way to test our understanding of the script(s)

(since you care so much about taking responsibility for your words-

if kise' is a great rikishi, how will you describe hakuho, asashoryu, chiyonifuji, etc?

i guess we will need an extra category of 'really, really great', eh?)

and agreed, kisenosato is prone to choking

is he cream? sour cream, maybe

sorry; all three amigos are nothing like cream

they hold their places only barely, and only with ongoing generous gifting

[hamcornheinz]

You did not call the 'giku fix because there was no 'giku fix. Most people, if they do win a yusho, win only one. That doesn't mean it's fixed.

and why don't you take responsibility for a libel on Hakuho and Kotoyuki. Just say it. Write "I was wrong, and falsely accused 2 clean wrestlers for illegal and immoral behavior." Why don't you.

[wuli]

hamcornheinz, i'm trying hard to follow your reasoning

are you saying that hakuho doesn't give gifts? or that 'yuki hasn't been receiving them?

is it that you believe there is no such thing as yaocho?

are you saying all the matches are straight up?

if the goal is an immaculate 'legal and moral behavior' only, i think you have the wrong sport

yaocho is, and has always been, inextricably woven into sumo world; hence, the existence of this thread and the general high spiritedness of ongoing discussions re yaocho

[hamcornheinz]

I'm not saying its nonexistent or pan-existent. I'm saying its undetectable. And you are exhibit A my friend. Your predictions are exhibit A to why yaocho cannot be adequately detected: if something expected happens, its yaocho. If something unexpected happens, its yaocho.

[wuli]

I'm not saying its nonexistent or pan-existent. I'm saying its undetectable. And you are exhibit A my friend. Your predictions are exhibit A to why yaocho cannot be adequately detected: if something expected happens, its yaocho. If something unexpected happens, its yaocho.

yeah, you are right

whatever happens, expected or unexpected, there is an awful lot of yaocho

[hamcornheinz]

well, I tried.

[Asashosakari]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Some horses just aren't thirsty.

[wuli]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Some horses just aren't thirsty.

yep,

and some are already drunk enough

some know enough to not drink the koolaid offered from scamps who cannot stay on topic

what about you, asashosakari?

are you more drunk, or thirsty?

more pertinent, what are your views on yaocho?

are you amongst the deniers, or can you detect the smell of fraud at times? if so, please share your experience of this

can you entertain a legitimate yusho from kisenosato, or kotoshogiku? goeido? at 7-1, is he in striking range? shodai and kotoyuki have been getting lots of help, or not?

[Pandaazuma]

I think it is long past time to stop feeding this troll. Everyone here has made their nuanced views clear on yaocho on many occasions but this lad doesn't seem to realise that we are all well aware of the situation. To him, we are naïve, brainwashed, blind...tragically unaware of the great crime of not just bout fixing but actual tournament fixing. There's always some excuse for any deviance from the pre-conceived narrative and if things DO go according to predictions, that there is validation. He is either oblivious to his own ignorance or deliberately trolling. Neither possibility is conducive to constructive debate. What I suggest instead is that Wuli play Toto or Oracle or Odd Sumo etc. and win yusho in all three to demonstrate his superior predictive knowledge. Until then...this is wind.

[wuli]

I think it is long past time to stop feeding this troll. Everyone here has made their nuanced views clear on yaocho on many occasions but this lad doesn't seem to realise that we are all well aware of the situation. To him, we are naïve, brainwashed, blind...tragically unaware of the great crime of not just bout fixing but actual tournament fixing. There's always some excuse for any deviance from the pre-conceived narrative and if things DO go according to predictions, that there is validation. He is either oblivious to his own ignorance or deliberately trolling. Neither possibility is conducive to constructive debate. What I suggest instead is that Wuli play Toto or Oracle or Odd Sumo etc. and win yusho in all three to demonstrate his superior predictive knowledge. Until then...this is wind.

o' panda!

have you fallen for the confused notion that the topic is wuli?

this is still the yaocho thread, despite ongoing efforts to derail the topic

if you (and a couple others) are more into wuli than yaocho, why not start a thread for that?

since you've shared that you already understand yaocho is real, what is it that you see? does your yaocho have to do w/ the fauxeki, or are you finding it elsewhere? your nuances could be helpful for readers here

[Ryoshishokunin]

The wonderful thing about conversations, even on the internet in topics with titles, is that the thread of conversation evolves naturally.

The topic of this thread is now 'wuli, trolling'. Feel free to continue doing so, but that's the topic as perceived by the readership of the thread. It turns out that this is related to the previous topic, since you allege that yaocho exists in quantities that differ from others, and that it's obvious to you: others ask for evidence. wuli refuses to provide it, and trolls instead.

Clear, wuli-san?

[wuli]

The wonderful thing about conversations, even on the internet in topics with titles, is that the thread of conversation evolves naturally.

The topic of this thread is now 'wuli, trolling'. Feel free to continue doing so, but that's the topic as perceived by the readership of the thread. It turns out that this is related to the previous topic, since you allege that yaocho exists in quantities that differ from others, and that it's obvious to you: others ask for evidence. wuli refuses to provide it, and trolls instead.

Clear, wuli-san?

otherwise known as 'hijacking'

keep trying

clear, ryoshishakunin-san?

since you're here, any views on yaocho?

Edited May 16, 2016 by wuli

[SkinnySumo]

time is getting ripe for the overlord to give one up

it fits the script for kotoyuki to win day 8 over hakuho

You want to know where else you could fit that script?

well, aloha skinny

yes, i'd love to hear your imaginative ideas for script fitting

even better, can you contribute something regarding yaocho?

is goeido still a contender for this yusho, for example? does he hold ozeki by virtue of skill and fighting spirit, or has he been getting by on heavy gifting?

Aloha wuli,

Are you pacific islander?

Sorry about the comment earlier. Script fitting ideas? With yours I'd say in Mike's sumo reports...

Not a fan of Goeido. But Goeido looks on fire last basho and this basho. He can be a contender. Wikipedia says he has 11 special prizes and 4 championship titles in lower divisions, under his belt.

So why not.

Does he get gifts? I'll say no. Not after a 4-11 on Jan. But Yoacho is anybody's guess. Until it comes to light AGAIN, the athletes(humans btw!!!) deserve the benefit of the doubt. Go Goeido Go.

[wuli]

i fear kisenosato will be gifted this yusho, same as the 'giku

if this occurs, what will be the new bar? goeido, endo, anybody at all might be granted a yusho

[Randomitsuki]

i fear kisenosato will be gifted this yusho, same as the 'giku

if this occurs, what will be the new bar? goeido, endo, anybody at all might be granted a yusho

Ok. Can you point me at a bout from Kisenosato this basho where he was gifted with a win? Please name one bout (or more) and explain why it was gifted. In your own words.