Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2015 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Adil]

Happy that Harumafuji won the yusho. How time flies. Has it really been 2 years since his last yusho? Wow.

About his bout today: Am always happy when Kisenosato wins, because (1) I like him and (2) just so that I don't hear the usual "Oh, he blew it again! What a disappointing guy etc.". However, I got the feeling that Harumafuji was perhaps injured and couldn't give it his all. I will try and post screengrabs from Moti-san's video if I have the time (really busy these days with a new job). However, if I can't, just watch how he avoids putting any pressure on his right leg during the match. The most natural explanation might be that it was the momentum of Kisenosato's pushing that kept him from planting his right leg on the dohyo, but the way he fell off the dohyo makes me think he was trying to save his right leg/foot. Oh, dang it! It takes longer to write about it. Lemme go work on that screengrab.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Adil

[wuli]

... And now the void of no sumo for two months.... :'-(

50 days,

just 50 days... :-)

Edited November 22, 2015 by wuli

[taresu]

What an exciting Basho! So happy for Harumafuji. I was expecting some kind of playoff but i guess things was already hot enough this time. Can't believe i read all the conspiracy pages here haha, but was really nice to realize how different some people understands sumo. Guess is all a question of lack of information. I know some people found frustrating the Ami bout but i was so happy when he henka Shohouzan, i mean, it was so predictable yet only achievable by him hahaha, the king of willies!

Can't say nothing about Hakuho, like some people had said here before, "professional athletes screw things up once in a while, happens more than people believe", i like to focus on the results and the facts, he lost, next basho, please!!

[Dwale]

You know what? When I think about the match between Shohozan and Aminishiki, I can feel a certain poetry in it. I think that was an important lesson for Shohozan.

[Hakuhonofan]

50 long days...

It wasn't the result that I expected, but I'm happy for HF. You never know whatever the result will be, but isn't that what sumo is?

[Kintamayama]

Well, at least ST was pointing out the interestingly epic fightbacks of past-selldate Ozeki already back then, when everyone around here was still sniffing flowers.

Untrue. We sussed out the OBSC years before you. What is too bad is that the guys over there know their sumo and some are good friends. The incessant use of flashlights is tiresome at best.

With all due respect, Moti, but you are BSing yourself here. Just go to the often quoted Itai-book-thread and witness the spectacle of how adult people are in full tear-filled say-it-ain't-right-I'll-hold-my-breath-until-it-goes-away-mode. And the OBSC denial went on all until Kaio broke down and the YbSMS blew up.

And now it's all "common knowledge, but we (?) just don't make such a fuss"?! Right on.

See, Mike is clearly on an ill-fated crusade. I don't agree with many things these days. But lunatic ST is not. And SF has not always been a spring of pure enlightenment. Can't speak for any mailing list, though, I'll give you that.

Itai book? Are you kidding me??That was ages ago. You have to agree that things have changed a bit recently.. I never said everything is strictly on the up and up in sumo-on the contrary- I sometimes think I spot something weird. These are human beings we are dealing with.

This being said, what goes on lately on ST is way overboard. Nobody said ST was lunatic, just paranoid. I'm overbored with this.

OBSC was never denied -we invented the initials - but most of us- we didn't need KaioU to break down- we had Musouyama and Chiyotaikai and even Baruto with his half-assed diving. That was a no- brainer.

And, sorry, but compared to ST re sumo information per se, SF is a total spring of enlightenment.

[Asashosakari]

These are human beings we are dealing with.

That's the root of all the problems. If only that stopped being the case, the Clean Sumo nirvana would surely be ours.

[Irakusamaru]

Silly question time: my favorite gyoji, the one who officiated the match between Gagamaru and Sadanoumi today, wore a blue outfit on day 14 and today. Usually he wears a red outfit. Is there any reason for the change, or is it just his fashion sense kicking in? Can't remember the guys name, sorry... But he has the best voice in ozumo!

That's Kimura Konosuke - I'm pretty sure the red duds were a new outfit this basho.

Some gyoji seem to favour a couple of outfits, while others, like Kimura Keinosuke, Konosuke's stablemate, can almost go a whole basho without repeating.

He seemed to be channeling Keinosuke today - he's normally a bit more upright.

[Irakusamaru]

Kisenosato can really pull it out of the bag sometimes, a shame he just never has the consistancy. I did want Ama to win, and in the end he did. But I was worried! (Eh?) And now the void of no sumo for two months.... :'-(

Man, there needs to be a gif of Kisenosato putting on his 'war face' during the preparation. It was almost as scary as Hakuho's or Asashoryu's.

[ALAKTORN]

Whoever said that Harumafuji’s right leg might’ve been injured– I can totally see that from the gifs above. It could be.

[hamcornheinz]

Hakuho and Harumafuji both got dominated technically, to say otherwise is more than a bit insulting to Yokozuna Kakuryu and Ozeki Kisenosato.

[ALAKTORN]

Hakuho and Harumafuji both got dominated technically, to say otherwise is more than a bit insulting to Yokozuna Kakuryu and Ozeki Kisenosato.

You think spazzing out with his leg in the air is something that Kisenosato made him do? I’d have to disagree.

Now that I’ve watched it frame-by-frame, I even think it wasn’t Kisenosato pushing Harumafuji up, but it was Harumafuji jumping up from his right leg as if he were in pain…

[hamcornheinz]

Hakuho and Harumafuji both got dominated technically, to say otherwise is more than a bit insulting to Yokozuna Kakuryu and Ozeki Kisenosato.

You think spazzing out with his leg in the air is something that Kisenosato made him do? I’d have to disagree.

Now that I’ve watched it frame-by-frame, I even think it wasn’t Kisenosato pushing Harumafuji up, but it was Harumafuji jumping up from his right leg as if he were in pain…

First gif (I assume we're looking at the gifs posted above) look at kise's left shoulder. He is raising Ama, one of the basics of basics of sumo.

Gif 2: Kise gets a powerful right hand grip and moves to Harumafuji's left side. Harumafuji's footwork can't keep up, because humans can't move as fast sideways as fowards.

Gif 3: self-explanatory.

Harumafuji very much did jump, he jumped into Kisenosato but got countered with a lift. Jumping into your opponent is also very basic... just look at how much Kotoshogiku uses it...

[Adil]

Sorry folks, I don't have time to do the screengrabs. Just watch Harumafuji falling off the dohyo frame by frame and observe:

1) He is about to step down from the dohyo on his right leg, with his right foot very close to the floor but his left leg still on the dohyo. In a flash, he moves his right leg up and instead crashes onto to the floor on his left knee, with his right foot still not having touched the floor. The fact that he chose not to land on his right leg (which was already very close to the floor) and instead chose to make a particularly painful landing on his left knee tells me he was trying to protect his right leg. This awkward crash landing, coupled with his avoiding to put any pressure on his right leg during the bout makes me think his right leg is injured.

2) On the flip side, both of the points I mention above can be explained: As I mentioned before, he wasn't putting any pressure on his right leg because the momentum was putting him off balance. As for the awkward fall, having watched it frame by frame, I see a second possibility: Yes, he does suddenly jump and crashes onto the floor, but that could be because his right foot got caught on the sloping side of the dohyo and the rest was just his body reacting to it.

[taresu]

In the Yusho interview, Harumafuji said his Injury is healing, wich injury he is talking about?

the same one that made him pull off last time?

[808morgan]

Man, there needs to be a gif of Kisenosato putting on his 'war face' during the preparation. It was almost as scary as Hakuho's or Asashoryu's.

If there is a good shot let me know the video and time.

[Dapeng]

As Shohozan had already lost I presume you're joking about Harumafuji's sacrifice.

Since Shohozan had already lost, it's inconsequential whether he won Kise or not. The burden was already on Ami and Shohozan. No one can blame Haru for not giving Shoho a chance.

[Kintamayama]

In the Yusho interview, Harumafuji said his Injury is healing, wich injury he is talking about?

the same one that made him pull off last time?

His latest injury was his right elbow, on which he had surgery before the September basho. Before that, he had a right-eye something, and even before that, it was his left ankle.

[Kintamayama]

As Shohozan had already lost I presume you're joking about Harumafuji's sacrifice.

Since Shohozan had already lost, it's inconsequential whether he won Kise or not. The burden was already on Ami and Shohozan. No one can blame Haru for not giving Shoho a chance.

How exactly did he give Shoho a chance? By winning 12 straight bouts? How was that giving Shoho a chance? And since he lost after Shoho lost, how indeed? Or are you saying if Shoho had won, he would have lost on purpose? I do not understand your logic, sir, any way you turn it. He did not give Shoho a chance. Why should he? Shoho is not even Mongolian.

[Katooshu]

Reading Dapeng's comments gives me a headache.

[Dwale]

Man, there needs to be a gif of Kisenosato putting on his 'war face' during the preparation. It was almost as scary as Hakuho's or Asashoryu's.

If there is a good shot let me know the video and time.

Yeah! I have to agree, Kisenosato is really intimidating, and his opponents know he has the skills to back it up. Not even Hakuho can afford to take Kisenosato lightly.

[ALAKTORN]

First gif (I assume we're looking at the gifs posted above) look at kise's left shoulder. He is raising Ama, one of the basics of basics of sumo.

Harumafuji very much did jump, he jumped into Kisenosato but got countered with a lift. Jumping into your opponent is also very basic... just look at how much Kotoshogiku uses it...

Having watched the first gif frame-by-frame, Harumafuji looks to be lifting himself up way before Kisenosato does anything. Looks to me more like Kise just takes advantage of it and helps him up, doesn’t initiate it himself. But we can agree to disagree.

[gijo]

First gif (I assume we're looking at the gifs posted above) look at kise's left shoulder. He is raising Ama, one of the basics of basics of sumo.

Harumafuji very much did jump, he jumped into Kisenosato but got countered with a lift. Jumping into your opponent is also very basic... just look at how much Kotoshogiku uses it...

Having watched the first gif frame-by-frame, Harumafuji looks to be lifting himself up way before Kisenosato does anything. Looks to me more like Kise just takes advantage of it and helps him up, doesnt initiate it himself. But we can agree to disagree.

I saw exactly the same. Maybe Harumafuji was expecting Kise to move, and tried to anticipate with that little jump forward. It's a good way to face Harumafuji, that is one of the few rikishi that risk to jump, having no feet left on the ground, which is a dangerous situation (but deadly for the opponent). Edited November 23, 2015 by gijo

[Kasutera]

I think Harumafuji is quickly becoming my favorite Yokozuna, if only because he has such a dynamic style. Hakuho can entertain with shows of pure power, but I always like seeing when Ama can change levels and shoot down to get right into his opponent's mawashi. It's such a show of skill as well as strength that it just feels like real top-quality performance from a guy who really studies the game and keeps aware of all the options.

[dingo]

To me it seems that Harumafuji's skill comes mostly from his speed. Without that he's incredibly vulnerable. Hakuho's skill on the other hand comes from his technique, he's the undisputed master of it among current rikishi and he proved it very well this basho.