Basho Talk - Aki 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

[Masumasumasu]

So matta against a yokozuna is disrespectful, but a yokozuna henka'ing his way to yusho is not?

You got it.

A henka from a Yokozuna is most certainly a desperate and shameful spectacle.

[Masumasumasu]

It is to some people, whether it "should" be or not. To some, part of the way of being a rikishi is about forward-moving power, and a henka is the antithesis of that. It also cheapens the spectacle somewhat when it immediately ends the match, although I admit that it's an even better spectacle when it's used and fails.

Well I guess the question is who these "some" people are and whether it "should". If sumo was only about forward-moving power, the only admissible kimarite should be kihonwaza techniques (yorikiri, oshidashi, tsukidashi etc.). But they are called "basic" techniques for a reason. What makes sumo so interesting is the mix of the basic strength techniques with nagete, kakete, hinerite. Defensive maneuvers, counters, non-anticipated moves to unbalance the opponent. Sumo isn't only about strength, it is about strength, speed, technique, anticipation, instinct, composure and smarts. And henka is a legitimate way to outsmart your opponent.

Now a Yokozuna is expected to be able to do also forward moving sumo - meaning that he shouldn't henka all the time (which of course would be self-defeating, an anticipated henka is easy to counter). But this description doesn't fit Kakuryu, who is regularly showing forward moving power: recall his victorious strength battles against Ichinojo and Terunofuji in the last few bashos, both larger and stronger men. An occasional henka against a strong Ozeki who is infamous for seeking to gain advantage by rushing the tachi-ai - nothing wrong with this.

Everything is wrong with it.

[torquato]

Post-basho blues

On days like this I'm wondering why there aren't any bouts to watch and what I should do instead. At a sudden life feels so useless without sumo.

Anyone else?

[Asojima]

torquato, on 28 Sept 2015 - 09:08, said:

Post-basho blues

On days like this I'm wondering why there aren't any bouts to watch and what I should do instead. At a sudden life feels so useless without sumo.

Anyone else?

Don't mention the existence of this condition to your spouse!!

Edited September 28, 2015 by Asojima

[CT3*]

I often use the between basho time to really watch the matches in Juryo and below.

[wuli]

Post-basho blues

On days like this I'm wondering why there aren't any bouts to watch and what I should do instead. At a sudden life feels so useless without sumo.

Anyone else?

yeah, kinda brutal on day 16

i just keep breathing,

'it's only six weeks, it's only six weeks...'

[Akinomaki]

Kitanoumi calls the 12 by Terunofuji a result too light for a yokozuna run, esp. with Hakuho etc. absent: Even with a zensho yusho next basho "there would be some critics" - thus he doesn't really say it wouldn't happen.

Isegahama head shimpan, who would have to initiate the promotion, calls the yokozuna run open though, strictly according to the rule of yusho or equivalent good result (=same number of wins), which is YDC recommendation.

The YDC pretty much in regard to both doesn't disagree: Light, difficult to say how much wins are needed, not denying the possibility, necessary to think about promoting him, but they won't just simply agree if he wins it.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1545420.html

They want and we have to see what happens next basho (and after it).

Edited September 28, 2015 by Akinomaki

[Asashosakari]

Isegahama head shimpan, who would have to initiate the promotion, calls the yokozuna run open though, strictly according to the rule of yusho or equivalent good result (=same number of wins), which is YDC recommendation.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2015/09/27/kiji/K20150927011217350.html

And of course, nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he is Terunofuji's Oyakata...

IMHO, Isegahama is too old school for that. Obviously he personally remembers what it feels like to be kept out by unreasonably high standards, but I don't think that means he's in favour of unreasonably low ones. And it was only a year ago that he seemingly didn't push for Terunofuji's (premature) sanyaku debut, when it would have been an easily justifiable decision. Edited September 28, 2015 by Asashosakari

[ScottyJoyJrBebe]

Post-basho blues

On days like this I'm wondering why there aren't any bouts to watch and what I should do instead. At a sudden life feels so useless without sumo.

Anyone else?

I think I've watched Terunofuji's regulation win about a MILLION times already, thinking to myself, next basho..next basho.

[Gurowake]

Promoting Chiyotairyu over Terunofuji after 2014 Nagoya seemed very weird to me at the time, because Terunofuji faced other guys in contention for sanyaku the last couple days, whereas Chiyotairyu faced guys at the bottom of the division. If they're going to have to over-promote people, why wouldn't they go with the ones they actually were giving matches to as though they were being considered for it?

[ScottyJoyJrBebe]

Isegahama head shimpan, who would have to initiate the promotion, calls the yokozuna run open though, strictly according to the rule of yusho or equivalent good result (=same number of wins), which is YDC recommendation.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2015/09/27/kiji/K20150927011217350.html

And of course, nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he is Terunofuji's Oyakata...

IMHO, Isegahama is too old school for that. Obviously he personally remembers what it feels like to be kept out by unreasonably high standards, but I don't think that means he's in favour of unreasonably low ones. And it was only a year ago that he seemingly didn't push for Terunofuji's (premature) sanyaku debut, when it would have been an easily justifiable decision.

Unreasonable...doesn't he have the record for most consecutive Jun-Yusho? Doing research, it makes me glad that he found it in him to get 2 yusho in a row after all he had done and not being promoted. As I stated earlier, I believe a 13-2 yusho would clinch it.

[Stelios]

I expect Terunofuji with a second yusho-doten and then a normal yusho - no matter with how many victories - will win him the Yokozunahood.

[Tenshinhan]

Promoting Chiyotairyu over Terunofuji after 2014 Nagoya seemed very weird to me at the time, because Terunofuji faced other guys in contention for sanyaku the last couple days, whereas Chiyotairyu faced guys at the bottom of the division. If they're going to have to over-promote people, why wouldn't they go with the ones they actually were giving matches to as though they were being considered for it?

In general, it seems like if there are two rikishi with a two-rank-difference and the lower-ranked gained one win more, he will be above the other one in the next banzuke (for example Kagamio above Kotoyuki on the current banzuke or Takayasu in front of Aoiyama on the Nagoya banzuke) although numerically they have to be at the same position which is not possible of course (I refer only to positive records here).

In contrary to this, I recognized that it's different in Makushita: In July Kisenoyama got a 5-2 record at Ms7w and Ms5w Azumaryu got a 4-3 record and on the next banzuke Kisenoyama was behind Azumaryu. So in this case the two ranks lower ranked rikishi was treated worse.

Don't know if these are some kind of banzuke rules, I haven't done many research about it yet.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Tenshinhan

[Gurowake]

Yes, it's true that very often they will put the one with more wins higher, but that wasn't the case (for example) for Sokokurai and Asasekiryu for Aki. They do whatever they feel like. That's why GTB isn't trivial.

[Tenshinhan]

Hmm okay. On the last rankings I found many examples for this that they put the one with more wins higher but I didn't catch the one with Sokokurai and Asasekiryu. :-)

Edited September 28, 2015 by Tenshinhan

[Asashosakari]

The hopelessness of trying to predict what they'll do with two-rank/one-win situations, encapsulated in one tiny banzuke section (also from the most recent one):

[Randomitsuki]

The hopelessness of trying to predict what they'll do with two-rank/one-win situations, encapsulated in one tiny banzuke section (also from the most recent one):

So we can derive the rule that in case of identical banzuke projections 6-9 records have precedence over any other records. ;-)

[torquato]

That's why GTB isn't trivial.

That's why it's a lottery!

[Kishinoyama]

That is why the 'G' stands for 'guess'. The way the banzuke is made truly seems to be a guess more often that one would think....

[ScreechingOwl]

There's a lot of weight on Kisenosato's shoulders. (Granted, there's a lot of weight on the rest of him as well.) He's done everything a good ozeki should do except win a yusho. (There's a name for great ozeki: yokozuna.) So far he's unable to win the "big" bouts he needs to, as Gurowake notes.

As a side note, did anyone see the look on Ikioi's face when he was 10-1 and tied for the lead. Ikioi looked like he was in physical pain before his match with Yoshikaze, just from the pressure. I had no doubt that Yoshikaze would win the match as soon as I saw how Ikioi looked. So if that's how it is to have the hopes of so many Japanese fans on you for a couple of days, imagine how it feels to Kisenosato to have that pressure, day in day out, basho after basho, for years.

[evilwaldo]

A lot of weight but no more weight than anyone else coming up through the ranks. There is a certain mental aspect to being at that level and at the present time it does not appear he has the mental ability to make it to the final level.

On a different point, everything looks different without Hakuho. You realize just how far he is above the rest of the field. Without Hakuho you feel as if there are a lot of sumo that can win any particular basho, Kisensato included.

Edited September 29, 2015 by evilwaldo

[lackmaker]

I can only guess but I would have thought the pressure on the leading Japanese ozeki over a considerable period of time out weighs much else.

[WAKATAKE]

I expect Terunofuji with a second yusho-doten and then a normal yusho - no matter with how many victories - will win him the Yokozunahood.

This I would agree with. Everybody I feel would be a lot more satisfied it Teru's who tsuna run is fleshed out over a course of three basho (Aki, Kyushu, Hatsu) rather than two, because the records so far for him in my mind are really borderline. I would like to see him get to yokozuna just about as much as anybody else, but we can't expect to just cruise straight through to the next rank without at least having settled in and gotten some more experience at ozeki. Better to be prepared.

[ronnie]

The hopelessness of trying to predict what they'll do with two-rank/one-win situations, encapsulated in one tiny banzuke section (also from the most recent one):

Aren't the demotions here based more on the number of losses rather than how many wins?

Toyohibiki's 5 losses against Seiro's 1 rather than the difference of 2 wins would explain the size of the demotions.

That said, I'm so crap at guessing banzukes that I quit attempting GTB, so what do I know?

[Jakusotsu]

It just occurred to me that the reason why Kisenosato never made it to Yokozuna might be his being notoriously gachinko, always refusing to earn any favours (see Goeido in the last bout or Asashosakari's analysis against Kotoshogiku).