Basho Talk - Aki 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

[Asashosakari]

It just occurred to me that the reason why Kisenosato never made it to Yokozuna might be his being notoriously gachinko, always refusing to earn any favours (see Goeido in the last bout or Asashosakari's analysis against Kotoshogiku).

That's certainly possible. I've also had the thought that both Kisenosato and Goeido might have been "allowed" to move up to ozeki with just 32 wins at the time because of a gachinko bonus for both. That type of thing happening was certainly an open secret back in the 1970s and 1980s, but I don't know if it's still (as) relevant. From what's been said about back then, for a while things must have resembled trench warfare between the gachinko oyakata faction and those oyakata supporting certain yaocho'ing active rikishi.

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, both ex-Takanosato (Kise's late shisho) and ex-Ryogoku (Sakaigawa-oyakata) were/are known as strongly opposed to yaocho, in Takanosato's case related to the fact that he himself was a Futagoyama product, where being clean was reportedly the heya ethos ever since Wakanohana I set up the stable.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Tenshinhan]

The hopelessness of trying to predict what they'll do with two-rank/one-win situations, encapsulated in one tiny banzuke section (also from the most recent one):

As I mentioned additionally, I was only referring to positive results and here it's not hopeless at all.

Hatsu 15 Banzuke:

Chiyotairyu (9) above Okinoumi (8)

Sokokurai (9) above Homarefuji (8)

Kyokushuho (9) above Arawashi (8)

Asasekiryu (9) above Gagamaru (8)

Daido (9) above Asahisho (8)

Haru 15 Banzuke:

Tokitenku (9) above Yoshikaze (8)

Fujiazuma (9) above Tamaasuka (8)

Nagoya 15 Banzuke:

Takayasu (10) above Aoiyama (9)

Amuru (9) above Kyokutenho (8)

Aki 15 Banzuke:

Kagamio (9) above Kotoyuki (8)

Wakanoshima (9) above Tamaasuka (8)

The example with Sokokurai (9) above Asasekiryu (10) is actually the only counterexample in 2015 (but I admit that all cases except Takayasu/ Aoiyama are 8-7/ 9-6 cases).

Edit: The latest 9-6/ 10-5 examples are:

Aoiyama (10) above Takarafuji (9) (Aki 13 Banzuke)

Homasho (10) above Tochinowaka (9) (Kyushu 13 Banzuke)

Arawashi (10) above Chiyonokuni (9) (Natsu 14 Banzuke)

Sadanoumi (10) above Kyokushuho (9) (Nagoya 14 Banzuke)

Chiyotairyu (10) above Terunofuji (9) (Aki 14 Banzuke)

In this time period there is also only one counterexample with Shotenro (9) above Kagamio (10) on the Hatsu 14 Banzuke and this (like the Asasekiryu-Sokokurai example) also includes promotion from Juryo to Makuuchi which seems to be a bit of a special case.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Tenshinhan

[Gurowake]

We're faced with another one in Osunaarashi vs. Ichinojo for the Kyushu banzuke, and this one I can see turning out either way. Ichinojo didn't actually have a full joi schedule; his match with Kotoshogiku didn't happen in order to put the Ozeki against Ikioi. Osunaarashi had bouts against everyone above him on the banzuke that was competing (neither of them faced Hakuho). Is that one match that didn't happen enough to put Osunaarashi ahead? I imagine there will be lively debate about it.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe]

We're faced with another one in Osunaarashi vs. Ichinojo for the Kyushu banzuke, and this one I can see turning out either way. Ichinojo didn't actually have a full joi schedule; his match with Kotoshogiku didn't happen in order to put the Ozeki against Ikioi. Osunaarashi had bouts against everyone above him on the banzuke that was competing (neither of them faced Hakuho). Is that one match that didn't happen enough to put Osunaarashi ahead? I imagine there will be lively debate about it.

I'm about as big of an Ichinojo fan as you can get, but even I will say that Osunaarashi should be M1e, and Ichinojo M1w, especially because Ichinojo has just rebounded from a terrible tournament, while Osunaarashi has built up momentum since his injury. in some sense I wish Osunaarashi could have been K2w next basho, but alas, no forced promotions this time around.

[808morgan]

Damn it!

Was this during Aki 2015? I don't remember it.

[Katooshu]

I know they were throwing zabuton at the yumitorikishi after Yoshikaze upset Kakuryu on day three, but the gif seems to be from a different occasion based on who is in the background.

[Katooshu]

We're faced with another one in Osunaarashi vs. Ichinojo for the Kyushu banzuke, and this one I can see turning out either way. Ichinojo didn't actually have a full joi schedule; his match with Kotoshogiku didn't happen in order to put the Ozeki against Ikioi. Osunaarashi had bouts against everyone above him on the banzuke that was competing (neither of them faced Hakuho). Is that one match that didn't happen enough to put Osunaarashi ahead? I imagine there will be lively debate about it.

I'm about as big of an Ichinojo fan as you can get, but even I will say that Osunaarashi should be M1e, and Ichinojo M1w, especially because Ichinojo has just rebounded from a terrible tournament, while Osunaarashi has built up momentum since his injury. in some sense I wish Osunaarashi could have been K2w next basho, but alas, no forced promotions this time around.

I agree. In my opinion Oosu should be ahead and I hope to see him land a komusubi spot soon.

[Asashosakari]

Was this during Aki 2015? I don't remember it.

Wasn't there an incident like that in Nagoya? I could be misremembering.

[808morgan]

I know they were throwing zabuton at the yumitorikishi after Yoshikaze upset Kakuryu on day three, but the gif seems to be from a different occasion based on who is in the background.

yeah I was thinking it didn't look right either.

[808morgan]

Was this during Aki 2015? I don't remember it.

Wasn't there an incident like that in Nagoya? I could be misremembering.

It's hard to remember. It popped up and I'd never seen it so I thought it might be new.

[Kintamayama]

Was this during Aki 2015? I don't remember it.

Wasn't there an incident like that in Nagoya? I could be misremembering.

Looks like Kokugikan zabutons. Aren't the Nagoya ones nailed down now, or not anymore?

[Asojima]

Was this during Aki 2015? I don't remember it.

Wasn't there an incident like that in Nagoya? I could be misremembering.

Looks like Kokugikan zabutons. Aren't the Nagoya ones nailed down now, or not anymore?

I have a vague memory (most of mine are now vague) of this event taking place several years ago, possibly back in the Asashoryu era.

[Kintamayama]

Was this during Aki 2015? I don't remember it.

Wasn't there an incident like that in Nagoya? I could be misremembering.

Looks like Kokugikan zabutons. Aren't the Nagoya ones nailed down now, or not anymore?

I have a vague memory (most of mine are now vague) of this event taking place several years ago, possibly back in the Asashoryu era.

No way, the yumitorishiki in the gif is the current Satonofuji who started off in January 2013..

Edited October 1, 2015 by Kintamayama

[Naganoyama]

Not as far back as that as the yumi-furi is Satonofuji rather than Minanosato.

[Asashosakari]

Turns out it was on Day 1 this basho. The moment right after it happened is actually on Kinta's digest for the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-MAdFGbaLM&t=580

(Why the heck does the embedding of videos not support timecodes? You'll have to click through, sorry.)

Edit: And Kotooshu's Revenge was correct, too, there were also zabuton flying on Day 3, but the few that hit the dohyo didn't quite make it to Satonofuji that time.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Asashosakari

[gijo]

Kisenosato never been Yokozuna: I think that we have to consider also some psycological issues.. A guy like Kise seems to have a poor self-esteem, that's all. Something broke up in this important feature of humans for him, maybe when he was very young or even a child. Maybe he was bullied by other rikishi or even at school. And I guess heya's elder vs younger rikishi habits may influenced him in negative way. Some traumas are very difficult to recover.

Edited October 1, 2015 by gijo

[Jakusotsu]

That's taking it a bit too far in remote psychoanalysis, I think. Kisenosato cradling a childhood trauma just because he didn't win some of the high-level fights in his career? Not every story has a happy ending in real life, and that's it.

[808morgan]

Turns out it was on Day 1 this basho. The moment right after it happened is actually on Kinta's digest for the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-MAdFGbaLM&t=580

(Why the heck does the embedding of videos not support timecodes? You'll have to click through, sorry.)

Edit: And Kotooshu's Revenge was correct, too, there were also zabuton flying on Day 3, but the few that hit the dohyo didn't quite make it to Satonofuji that time.

Ah you are right, I see him taking the zabuton away!

[egparis18]

It's even possible to think that Kisenosato has enough self-esteem to feel fine just being himself, without being driven to win. He does that when he feels like it.

[gijo]

Kisenosato fails when he is under pressure. It's like it's over thinking, and emotionally breaking up. Anyway, just remote psychology, and I'm not a psychologist... But that could be an option, anyway... From the sumo side, I think that he's just as Ichinojo: someone that has been forced doing something alien to his personality: beating other people. I see them and Chiyomaru, an maybe some others in the same category: those that are really peaceful inside, no intention to harm anyone.

[Asashosakari]

That's taking it a bit too far in remote psychoanalysis, I think. Kisenosato cradling a childhood trauma just because he didn't win some of the high-level fights in his career? Not every story has a happy ending in real life, and that's it.

Also, we're talking about high-class athletes here, so the baseline for emotional/psychological stability under pressure isn't exactly the same as for random people who've never performed in front of large crowds. Kisenosato just doesn't have it together quite as well as the other top-level guys, that's all. He's also not quite as fast as them, but nobody would think to proclaim that as evidence that he must have suffered a debilitating accident as a child. Edited October 1, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Seijakuzan]

That's taking it a bit too far in remote psychoanalysis, I think. Kisenosato cradling a childhood trauma just because he didn't win some of the high-level fights in his career? Not every story has a happy ending in real life, and that's it.

Also, we're talking about high-class athletes here, so the baseline for emotional/psychological stability under pressure isn't exactly the same as for random people who've never performed in front of large crowds. Kisenosato just doesn't have it together quite as well as the other top-level guys, that's all. He's also not quite as fast as them, but nobody would think to proclaim that as evidence that he must have suffered a debilitating accident as a child.

I think anything 'mental' with him is more neurological than psychological. Like I said before, the guy very obviously has Tourette or something similar - and it's much harder for people with those conditions to relax. But I don't think that's what has cost him a chance at Yokozuna. He's just not good enough to beat the Mongolians consistently enough to get the needed 14-1 or 15-0 that he's needed (before this past basho) to beat the unbeatable Mongol du basho, and he lacks a killer instinct. I remember reading where someone in sumo (an oyakata I believe) saying that Kaiou would have easily been a Yokozuna if he had Asashoryu's killer instinct - and we know how well-appreciated Asashoryu's personality was as a whole - so that's saying a lot.

Yeah, a killer instinct is sorta mental, but it's not a mental condition to be lacking killer instinct.

[Kurikara]

Tourette's...? Is this for real? I haven't noticed..

[krindel]

I do wonder if any of the neurologists and psychologists offering diagnosis in this thread has ever actually met Kisenosato.

The guy is an athlete. Like many athletes he has great talent but is not there yet in his head to make that final step. He is facing pressure like no one else has of late. He is still young enough to be able to change that, although there is a possibility that he might never make it to more than he is now (which is a very good Ozeki).

Unless someone can offer actual medical information (preferably information that is public or semi public knowledge and not confidential), let's not get carried away and invent all sorts of conditions for him, shall we?

[Kotogouryuu]

Tourette's...? Is this for real? I haven't noticed..

He does have a twitch, but to make a full diagnosis based on that reaches quite far...