Basho Talk - Aki 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

[Asameshimae]

I didn't listen to all of Kaku's post interview on the dohyo, but at one point the interviewer said, "that was some Yokozuna-like sumo you showed in the playoff match." I couldn't help but think that this was a slight at Kaku's perceived less than Yokozuna-like sumo the day before.

Having said that, I agree with the sentiment that Japan will have forgotten this by about Wednesday, though it may take a bit longer on this forum. :)

[Kishinoyama]

Having said that, I agree with the sentiment that Japan will have forgotten this by about Wednesday, though it may take a bit longer on this forum. :)

It will never be forgotten on this forum thanks to all of the videos of past henkas that have been preserved. :-D

[Seijakuzan]

Why is there so much hate for Kisenosato? He shows up, never gets hurt, has averaged at least 10 wins as Ozeki for almost 4 years now, and employs textbook sumo. Does he have off-the-dohyo problems?

He was extremely young when he made it to Makuuchi, getting there from the bottom as a 15-year-old in 16 Ozumo basho. Hakuho also started at 15 a year previously and took an additional three tournaments despite being 4 months older than Kisenosato was upon joining (Kise's 16 months younger overall). I imagine it was reasonably expected that he would be the next Takanohana, at very least a Yokozuna. But he stubbornly refuses to win the matches he needs to in order to get that promotion despite being nearly on par with the weaker two Yokozuna now. There are plenty of Japanese who do not like the fact that there are 3 Mongolians there now (with another maybe on the way), but not the Japanese Kisenosato.

Yeah, but assuming that most of this forum is not actually Japanese, why would we care that someone who burst onto the scene at a young age didn't turn out to be one of the top 71 rikishi in history? I enjoyed watching Kaiou, who came so much closer to making yokozuna, and on more than one occasion. That was with Musashimaru and a usually-absent Takanohana as his biggest competition, before the era of Asashoryu (and then Hakuho) permanently squashed his chances. Kisenosato has been about as consistently good as they come, while being swallowed up by the Mongolian horde from day 1. If you swap Kisenosato and Kaiou's birthdates, I'd put money on Kisenosato being the 68th Yokozuna. So, I'm guessing Kaiou must be about as close to public enemy #1 around here.

I just don't see how there can be so much dislike for someone who will likely retire as a top 1% makuuchi rikishi of all time. He shows up and does excellent sumo day in and day out. He never henkas or falls on his face, and wins 90% of the matches he should be expected to win. His jumpiness at the tachi-ai went through a short (but admittedly annoying) phase, but you only have to watch him for 10 seconds to see that he is Tourette AF - I'm impressed that he's been able to rein it in as much as he has.

[Mongolith]

Kaio is one of the greatest ozeki ever and no I do not believe switching him with Kise would make any difference to Kise fortunes. If anything Kaio would easily be a Yok in this era seeing as how they lowered the bar continuously and still Kise could not jump over it. Hell Kise's yok run took so long that Kak decided to jump at the chance Kise opened. Ozeki like Kotoo, Baruto, Kaio, Haramfuji, Kak have all taken their yusho chances when they came (Yet Kise is often seen as their equal or even superior). Even tenho got one in there when Kise could not step up to Baruto. Kise is just a perennial choker that is on an everlasting yok run when he can't even yusho once. Seems like every basho when a true contender drops out that this could be Kise's basho (Don't say it too loud as it could jinx it). Kise is just gonna be remembered as a solid ozeki and nowhere near this hypothetical 1%.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Mongolith

[WAKATAKE]

Isegahama head shimpan, who would have to initiate the promotion, calls the yokozuna run open though, strictly according to the rule of yusho or equivalent good result (=same number of wins), which is YDC recommendation.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2015/09/27/kiji/K20150927011217350.html

And of course, nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he is Terunofuji's Oyakata...

Word. The fact that Isegahama (let's see, Harumafuji is Terunofuji's stablemate and they are yokozuna and ozeki) himself stated that a tsuna run is open for kyushu comes out fishy right off the bat. What oyakata wouldn't want two yokozuna in his stable? 11-4 and 12-3 are really good for his first two basho as an ozeki, but I really think he's receiving too much credit as is. To me there is a bit of a difference between 12-3 and 13-2. Let's see how Kyushu plays out and we can go from there.

Reading some of the Japanese articles about last night, it appears Kakuryu's shoulder was acting up after the Okinoumi match according to the one down below (in Japanese). Looks like that may be why his sumo might have changed up a bit in the closing days of the basho?

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1545202.html

[Jejima]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

[CT3*]

Jejima

That's exactly how one of the ST guys called it the day before senshuraku.

And I'm sure they're not gonna let anyone forget..

[Gurowake]

I'm pretty sure someone here on the forum said it as well, because it was the first thing on my mind when I saw it happen, and I don't read ST at all any more.

[CT3*]

Can't say that I blame you. It's become increasingly hard to take even a little seriously.

[Kintamayama]

Isegahama head shimpan, who would have to initiate the promotion, calls the yokozuna run open though, strictly according to the rule of yusho or equivalent good result (=same number of wins), which is YDC recommendation.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2015/09/27/kiji/K20150927011217350.html

And of course, nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he is Terunofuji's Oyakata...

Reading some of the Japanese articles about last night, it appears Kakuryu's shoulder was acting up after the Okinoumi match according to the one down below (in Japanese). Looks like that may be why his sumo might have changed up a bit in the closing days of the basho?

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1545202.html

In this specific article, Kakuryuu , after being asked regarding the double henka, specifically states he doesn't give a hoot about what people are saying. "I was not able to do frontal sumo but I really wanted to win so I gave it my all (and shifted to the left?) .. I'm not doing sumo to please people who write about me. I am living my own sumo life.." was what he said. Which means he didn't decide to do it on the spur, but thought it out quite well beforehand. And the shoulder pain returned after his day 5 match against Sadanofuji and continued in his day 6 match against Okinoumi.

[torquato]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

I've mentioned that:

If Teru loses the bout, the result wouldn't be enough for a run. A lost ketteisen would qualify Kakuryuish. Win-win for both. Maybe they find an agreement? Huu.... That's a conspiracy theory.

[Gernobono]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Edited September 28, 2015 by Gernobono

[Kintamayama]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Please post your future guesses here too. It would be fun to follow.. I of course disagree with the reasoning and think it was totally straight, because of things I know behind the scenes regarding the relationships inside the Mongolian camp which I cannot disclose at the moment although I am dying to.

Suffice it to say Kakuryuu would not give Terunofuji the time of day..

[Kintamayama]

Jejima

That's exactly how one of the ST guys called it the day before senshuraku.

And I'm sure they're not gonna let anyone forget..

Even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day.

[Kintamayama]

"What do you think of all the theories flying around on the forum?"

[Jakusotsu]

Holy *$%!

Terunofuji should be banned for life for wearing a shirt like that.

[kuroimori]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Please post your future guesses here too. It would be fun to follow.. I of course disagree with the reasoning and think it was totally straight, because of things I know behind the scenes regarding the relationships inside the Mongolian camp which I cannot disclose at the moment although I am dying to.

Suffice it to say Kakuryuu would not give Terunofuji the time of day..

I am also dying to hear these things going on behind the Mongolian curtain, hope you can share them when the time is right - btw, though most likely unintentional, but "things that cannot be disclosed (right now)" sounds a bit conspiratorial, djanai?

Hope this doesn't conspiral outta control.

I guess you refer to all the Mongolian Yoks being harsh rivals rather than good buddies whow love to help each other.

[Akinomaki]

The conspiracy of course has to include that all the other 3 top Mongolians got themselves injured to give Kakuryu that overdue first yusho as a yokozuna.

[Morty]

Kaio is one of the greatest ozeki ever and no I do not believe switching him with Kise would make any difference to Kise fortunes. If anything Kaio would easily be a Yok in this era seeing as how they lowered the bar continuously and still Kise could not jump over it. Hell Kise's yok run took so long that Kak decided to jump at the chance Kise opened. Ozeki like Kotoo, Baruto, Kaio, Haramfuji, Kak have all taken their yusho chances when they came (Yet Kise is often seen as their equal or even superior). Even tenho got one in there when Kise could not step up to Baruto. Kise is just a perennial choker that is on an everlasting yok run when he can't even yusho once. Seems like every basho when a true contender drops out that this could be Kise's basho (Don't say it too loud as it could jinx it). Kise is just gonna be remembered as a solid ozeki and nowhere near this hypothetical 1%.

My take on Kise:

I've always liked him because he is gachinko and almost exclusively does forward moving sumo.He often matches it with the Yokozunae and has the best record of any rikishi who isn't a Yok against them. He has also, for the last few years been the big Japanese hope and I have a soft spot for the Japanese rikishi. I don't think I have ever seen him henka and I think the vast amount of time he has been accused of "tachiai hijinx" has actually been the result of nerves.

He is clearly very talented and has the right body size and shape for success. His progression through the ranks has been a series of sharp quick rises, followed by plateaus while he has worked out what to do to get to the next level. Each time he has had to mentally adjust to the new level and get through the mental barrier of taking the next step up. I thought that he would plateau out at Ozeki, which he did, but that eventually he would adjust and make the step to the next level, ie Yokozune. But obviously that hasn't happened.

What I think is that at each step on the ladder his natural talent has been enough to carry him up to the next level on the days when he can't get his head right. His problem at Ozeki is that he has run into a few rikishi both equal to (eg Kotoshogiku, Baruto, Kakaryu) and better than him (Hakuho, Harumafuji) in terms of talent and so his capacity to take the next step can't rely solely on his talent - it has to rely on his head and that has always been his achilles heel. His record against all of the above mentioned guys is good enough to suggest he should, by now, have taken the next natural step to Yokozuna. But he has never been able to put enough wins together in the same basho to yusho. A couple of years ago when he really looked at his best, beating the Yoks and and taking a number of jun-yusho, he would always drop a couple of matches to lesser rikishi, ruining his chances. While he can match it with someone like Hakuho, there is always an Aioyama or Tochiozan who seems to have his number mentally.

He is clearly a bunch of nerves and neuroses, and as I've said before, without the benefit of outside intervention from someone like a sports psychologist, he will probably never be able to get enough control of his head to take that final step to Yokozuna. This is a shame because he is clearly talented enough. But his head won't let him take that next hurdle. His age is getting to the point that he is running out of time. I keep hoping he will do a Asahifuji and take a late run at it when nobody expects him to, but I have basically come to the conclusion that it will probably never happen. He has reached his natural level and I can't see him going beyond it without making some sort of change, which would probably have to come from an external source. And in the feudal world of sumo that is unlikely to happen.

He will remain one of my favourites because if you take out the tachiai stuff, he is essentially the rikishi that everyone always talks about as the "right" type of rikishi. And I will continue to hope he finally wins the big one then follows it up with another big one so they can bump him up to Yokozuna. But I won't be holding my breath.

[Kintamayama]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Please post your future guesses here too. It would be fun to follow.. I of course disagree with the reasoning and think it was totally straight, because of things I know behind the scenes regarding the relationships inside the Mongolian camp which I cannot disclose at the moment although I am dying to.

Suffice it to say Kakuryuu would not give Terunofuji the time of day..

I am also dying to hear these things going on behind the Mongolian curtain, hope you can share them when the time is right - btw, though most likely unintentional, but "things that cannot be disclosed (right now)" sounds a bit conspiratorial, djanai?

Hope this doesn't conspiral outta control.

I guess you refer to all the Mongolian Yoks being harsh rivals rather than good buddies whow love to help each other.

No conspiracy- just gossip about the camps and bad blood-exactly the opposite of conspiracies. Not only yoks.

[krindel]

I can't help but wonder if Kise would be in a different place right now if Takanosato hadn't died, or if a more experienced oyakata had taken over Naruto-beya. Former Takanotsuru might be the best guy in the world, I have no idea to be honest, but giving Sumo's top prospect at the time to a guy with very little success as a rikishi and zero oyakata experience was a risky move, which has obviously not paid off.

[Jejima]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Please post your future guesses here too. It would be fun to follow.. I of course disagree with the reasoning and think it was totally straight, because of things I know behind the scenes regarding the relationships inside the Mongolian camp which I cannot disclose at the moment although I am dying to.

Suffice it to say Kakuryuu would not give Terunofuji the time of day..

Remember how Kakuryu became Yokozuna? He defeated Hakuho and then lost in a play-off, then had a victory over Hak the following basho, when he took the yusho. Kakuryu has a TERRIBLE record (4-38 - including play-offs) against Hakuho - apart from when he is on an Ozeki run, or on a Yokozuna run....

Yesterday, a clearly injured Terunofuji managed to beat Kakuryu for the first time ever....

You could also look further back, with one exception, the only times that Hakuho defeated Asashoryu, prior to becoming a Yokozuna, was a) when he was on an Ozeki run, b) when he was on a Yokozuna run.

There appears to be a pattern of sorts.

[Morty]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Please post your future guesses here too. It would be fun to follow.. I of course disagree with the reasoning and think it was totally straight, because of things I know behind the scenes regarding the relationships inside the Mongolian camp which I cannot disclose at the moment although I am dying to.

Suffice it to say Kakuryuu would not give Terunofuji the time of day..

I am also dying to hear these things going on behind the Mongolian curtain, hope you can share them when the time is right - btw, though most likely unintentional, but "things that cannot be disclosed (right now)" sounds a bit conspiratorial, djanai?

Hope this doesn't conspiral outta control.

I guess you refer to all the Mongolian Yoks being harsh rivals rather than good buddies whow love to help each other.

No conspiracy- just gossip about the camps and bad blood-exactly the opposite of conspiracies. Not only yoks.

There have been a number of Mongolians who have posted on this forum about this (Highway?). My memory is that Asa's people didn't like Hak's people for some event that happened during the previous generation to their fathers. or something like that. And that others amongst the Mongolians support one group or another. Except Kak who isn't in either camp. I think.

[Harry]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 'Mongolian Friendship Club'....

What senshuraku result(s) would suit Terunofuji and Kakuryu most? A play-off victory to Kakuryu of course. That way injured Terunofuji remains on his Yokozuna run (with a yusho equivalent) - and Kakuryu gets his first Yokozuna yusho.

i posted the same on the german sumoforum the day before......it was so obvious.....they would not let this go by....i ususally call it (translated) "and all are happy thereafter" ......aside of the above mentioned rikishi there also is the kyokai with a yokozuna-yusho and the crowd with a ketteisen......the commentators lost their temper when terunofuji won because now "we have a ketteisen"..

nothing wrong with such a plot.....this is ozumo

Please post your future guesses here too. It would be fun to follow.. I of course disagree with the reasoning and think it was totally straight, because of things I know behind the scenes regarding the relationships inside the Mongolian camp which I cannot disclose at the moment although I am dying to.

Suffice it to say Kakuryuu would not give Terunofuji the time of day..

Remember how Kakuryu became Yokozuna? He defeated Hakuho and then lost in a play-off, then had a victory over Hak the following basho, when he took the yusho. Kakuryu has a TERRIBLE record (4-38 - including play-offs) against Hakuho - apart from when he is on an Ozeki run, or on a Yokozuna run....

Yesterday, a clearly injured Terunofuji managed to beat Kakuryu for the first time ever....

You could also look further back, with one exception, the only times that Hakuho defeated Asashoryu, prior to becoming a Yokozuna, was a) when he was on an Ozeki run, b) when he was on a Yokozuna run.

There appears to be a pattern of sorts.

Of course, just like the Ozeki Backscratcher theory, this one works if they do and works if they don't. Who needs the win more? The rikishi on the ozeki or yokozuna run or the one who is already up there? Unless kadoban or already under the microscope for sumo unbecoming of a yokozuna, the one on the run needs it more. But the other guy could also give it to him. No way to know unless someone has too much beer and sake and spills it. Not the sort of thing you want to ask Asashouryuu unfortunately as he can have a wee bit of a temper at times...

[CT3*]

Even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day.

No argument here, brother. I use that same line all the time!