Asashoryu - Kotonowaka matches

[bennyloh]

Wow, Shoryu never seems to cease to amaze. Good bout by Kotonowaka too, but what a spectacular finish.

That is true.

However, as a Chiyotaikai fan, I can't help to feel bitter that whenever Taikai shows his ballet-dance ability at the edge everyone screams "bad sumo, lucky pulldown, etc", but whenever Shoryu does his twitching to escape a loss it's always "great ability, super skills, etc".

Shoryu's is capalble of doing all these even when he is half-way falling down. Remembered his first (May tournament) fight with Hoku, he was almost touching ground yet he send Hoku flying!

Not everyone runs down Chiyo, I am also a fan . Shoryu, Kai-O and Chiyo are the ones I pay attention mostly.

[bennyloh]

Another take on this match, from the Sumo Mailing List:

I saw a replay of the first match and I think Asashoryu lost the match,

based on the ruling of "shini-tai" or dead body.

If you are on the way going down in a position of no way you can reposition

yourself without holding someone.

For example, when a baby monkey is hanging on his/her mother's belly during

their sumo match, the baby is in "dead body" position and even if his/her

mother touches his/her hand before any part of the baby's body touches the

dirt, the winner should be the mother.

Think about a limbo dancer who could recover from an incredible position of

his/her back almost touching on the ground. That's the limit of if a rikishi

could recover from the position or not, and based on his athletic ability.

At least the feet need to be in the position of balancing the body.

In my opinion, Asashoryu's feet position is not in the position of limbo

dancer before getting up from the lower position under a bar. Asashoryu was

only hanging from Kotonowaka's mawashi and waiting for Kotonowaka touching

his hand on ground. That's in "shini-tai" or "dead body".

This reminded me of a match between Ozeki Takanohana and Yokozuna Kitanofuji

in early 1970's, I believe.

It was a controversial match, but Kitanofuji was given a win. Later, after

Kitanofuji watched a replay, he commented that he himself could not tell if

he actually won the match or not.

Both matches are very interesting match to think about the "shini-tai" rule,

though.

And they will be remembered for a long time to come.

Toshiyori Masumiriki

A rule is a rule. A newcomer to this forum and I must say also a newcomer in watching Sumo, I have always admired the "no-nonsense" ruling all along. The loser is the one that touches ground first. Keep it that way. We watched and we followed the rules nothing else.

Quote the reporter:

For example, when a baby monkey is hanging on his/her mother's belly during

their sumo match, the baby is in "dead body" position and even if his/her

mother touches his/her hand before any part of the baby's body touches the

dirt, the winner should be the mother.

This is the most ridiculous explanatuion I ever heard of "dead-body" Example: we are in a grappling position upright, you give me a throw and as I fell I held on to you, we both turnover and over downwards finally hitting the ground. But I am on top of you, you are at the bottom, the first to touch ground. You lost, you cannot claim the mother-monkey's right., can you?

The shimpans are not doing a great job in this bout, they are creating confusions here .

Edited July 12, 2004 by bennyloh

[bennyloh]

There's something else I didn't mention, but I think is worth mentioning. The kabai-te rule is apparently based not only on the dead-body situation of the defender, but also on the cause of the attacker putting his hand down. I believe one of the ideas behind it is that the attacker is allowed to touch down, if he does it to avoid falling on top of the other wrestler. Was this the case here? Or did Kotonowaka simply fail to control his left arm? It's another thing that's impossible to understand, especially since he wasn't exactly over Asashoryu. I don't think Koto himself can really know what made him put his hand down when he did, because we often can't understand the exact causes to our reflexes.

Apparently there was no danger of Koto's weight falling on him. Shoryu's grip on Koto's mawashi can distance himself. Another assumption, even if Koto's weight crashes on to Shoryu it will be a 'feeble" one considering Koto was crouching (at a lower height, standing-crash down will be injurious). Yes, there must be a reason why his left hand touches clay, I am sure there was a push on Koto's left thigh but not very sure if that results in his hand touching clay.

[paolo]

Looking at the replays: Kotonowaka clearly "wins" the bout from sumo technique

point of view: his uwatenage clearly beats Asashoryu, who is thrown and can only desperately try to remain alive as long as possible, hoping he is able to pull Kotonowaka to the ground before he touches the ground himself. But in sumo rules terms, how can Kotonowaka be the winner if his left hand AND his right hand AND his knee all touch the ground long before any part of Asashoryu's body/hand/back/anything touches ?

[Kashunowaka]

Looking at the replays: Kotonowaka clearly "wins" the bout from sumo technique

point of view: his uwatenage clearly beats Asashoryu, who is thrown and can only desperately try to remain alive as long as possible, hoping he is able to pull Kotonowaka to the ground before he touches the ground himself. But in sumo rules terms, how can Kotonowaka be the winner if his left hand AND his right hand AND his knee all touch the ground long before any part of Asashoryu's body/hand/back/anything touches ?

I suggest that you go back and re-read the posts in this thread.

[Mark Buckton]

Looking at the replays: Kotonowaka clearly "wins" the bout from sumo technique

point of view: his uwatenage clearly beats Asashoryu, who is thrown and can only desperately try to remain alive as long as possible, hoping he is able to pull Kotonowaka to the ground before he touches the ground himself. But in sumo rules terms, how can Kotonowaka be the winner if his left hand AND his right hand AND his knee all touch the ground long before any part of Asashoryu's body/hand/back/anything touches ?

I suggest that you go back and re-read the posts in this thread.

I do too BUT would say this - know that interpretation is key in Japan. Case by case is a standard in all aspects of life. Sumo is no different and if Asa said he was pulling down whilst 'bridging' is that offence - if so he was robbed of obvius victory by having to take part in a rematch potentially just because no kimarite has ever been thought up to cover that position.

Apply this thread to Kotoryu (was it) VS Sekiryu earlier on or to Sakari VS whoever it was he pushed out with his back - had the timings in those matches been slightly different would we have this debate? I think not and only see it as taking place because it is the Yokozuna and some people, behind a mask of fair play want to see him beaten - the same kind of people who probably wouldn't think twice about answering a similar thread were it on the other rikishi mentioned above.

To that end, I find Kotonowaka's comment that he put his hand down to avoid injury to Asa strange as I am sure the concept never once entered his head in the split second between being put into the final position sans 'contact' and putting his hand on the clay.

Like Hakuho he had time to think it over before the interview. Not just after the bout now was it?

[paolo]

I suggest that you go back and re-read the posts in this thread

I had already re-read everything, and my question came exactly from my readings. I will try to put it in another way.

1. The bout ends when Kotonowaka touches the ground with his left hand. Before that moment of course the bout is still on. Asashoryu is in a quite strange position, but the gyoji cannot stop the bout and give Kotonowaka the win, saying that Asashoryu has lost due to his strange position (or am I missing something and he can ?). If Kotonowaha were able to stand up and Asashoryu did not touch the ground, the bout would well go on ... (or am I missing something ?).

2. Then Kotonowaka touches the ground with his left hand, and here ends the bout. How can Kotonowaka be the winner ? Only if he did so to avoid to make harm to Asashoryu falling upon him ! But is this the case? Did he fall upon Asashoryu at all ? No. Did he move away not to fall upon Asashoryu ? No. When

Kotonowaha's left hand AND right hand AND knee touch the ground, Asashoryu is still in the air and still "alive"! For sure Kotonowaka was unlucky, because he missed the win by a hair... But this bout's outcome appears clearer than last year's one, when Asashoryu was considered the loser even without a mono-ii !

Needless to say, please do not get angry: I am just trying to understand !

[Kashunowaka]

Needless to say, please do not get angry: I am just trying to understand !

Me too - I am by no means an expert on this matter ... (Nodding yes...) I think Masumiriki's post explained "dead body" quite well (although bennyloh didn't agree with that).

Personally, I don't feel at all qualified to judge who should have won this bout. In this case, I prefer to listen to the opinions of more informed people - for instance, Takanonami's and Mainoumi's conflicting views are very interesting to read.

Another reason that I feel I should stay out of the discussion is that I am admittedly biased - I very much rooted for Kotonowaka, was delighted when I thought he had won, and was disappointed when he didn't get the win. I can go as far as saying that I think the decision to have a tori-naoshi was a cop-out - the judges should have ruled either way.

Edited July 12, 2004 by Kashunowaka

[Jakusotsu]

I can go as far as saying that I think the decision to have a tori-naoshi was a cop-out - the judges should have ruled either way.

This bout has raised many interesting discussions around the whole Sumo world with a lot of controversial yet well argued points of view. Taking into account that even experts like Takanonami and Mainoumi disagree with each other, I think tori-naoshi was a quite sensible solution. A rematch with a clear decision seems better than to put off half of the people.

[QttP]

This is the most ridiculous explanatuion I ever heard of "dead-body" Example: we are in a grappling position upright, you give me a throw and as I fell I held on to you, we both turnover and over downwards finally hitting the ground. But I am on top of you, you are at the bottom, the first to touch ground. You lost, you cannot claim the mother-monkey's right., can you?

The point is, Shoryu did not spin Kotonowaka around and landed on top of him, he just desperately clinged on to Koto's belt.

The dead body rule means that when one wrestler is clearly on top of the other, and the other is really not in the fight at all, the wrestler on top is the winner even if he touches a bit first.

Here Kotonowaka wasn't clearly on top of Asashoryu, and that's why eventually he was denied the win.

1. The bout ends when Kotonowaka touches the ground with his left hand. Before that moment of course the bout is still on. Asashoryu is in a quite strange position, but the gyoji cannot stop the bout and give Kotonowaka the win, saying that Asashoryu has lost due to his strange position (or am I missing something and he can ?). If Kotonowaha were able to stand up and Asashoryu did not touch the ground, the bout would well go on ... (or am I missing something ?).

You're missing the fact, that from the position Asashoryu was, there was no chance for him to get back into the bout. If Kotonowaka wouldn't touch down, Asashoryu would lie on his back a split second later anyway, so the dead body rule could apply. However, whether it should apply or not depends whether Asashoryu had control over his body even as he was falling down. And like I said earlier, that's a question which cannot be answered decisively by anyone who watches the bout.

[Kashunowaka]

I can go as far as saying that I think the decision to have a tori-naoshi was a cop-out - the judges should have ruled either way.

This bout has raised many interesting discussions around the whole Sumo world with a lot of controversial yet well argued points of view. Taking into account that even experts like Takanonami and Mainoumi disagree with each other, I think tori-naoshi was a quite sensible solution. A rematch with a clear decision seems better than to put off half of the people.

Rematch just because they can't agree on a verdict? Well, perhaps that's reasonable. I don't know what the rules say.

I don't agree however with you that judges should make decisions in order to avoid putting people off. They should do what they think is right according to the rules.

OTOH (from another thread):

Mihogaseki ( The head Shinpan ):

"No one of us thought it was 'kabai-te' "

This baffles me. If none of the shimpan thought it was kabai-te, why didn't they just declare Asashoryu the winner? What's the reason for torinaoshi?

[Jakusotsu]

This baffles me. If none of the shimpan thought it was kabai-te, why didn't they just declare Asashoryu the winner? What's the reason for torinaoshi?

They didn't consider kabai-te, i.e. the rule allowing a falling rikishi to touch the ground for safety's sake.

I'm not 100% sure, but shini-tai ("dead body") seems to be a different rule altogether. That one was causing all the problems.

Edited July 12, 2004 by Jakusotsu

[hoshidango]

Wow, the bout of the century! To me this makes the most memorable sumo matches ever I saw!

In a contradictory manner, I agree with little bit of many people's opinions here.

First of all, I am a Kotonowaka fan and not Asashoryu's.

Kotonowaka did touch the ground first. As a sumo experiencer & as a small one(so perhaps I am biased here?), I attest Asa actually won as Koto touched the ground first.

Having said this, Asa's position is very difficult to get up. Often teenage sumos actually can get up from this position(especially thin ones), but it would be rather difficult for a major league sumo guys. So it is kind of reasonable to see it as dead-body as well.

All put together, what would be most acceptable solution should have been re-match. So I commend on judges' decision this time.

[Asashosakari]

(3) to be in the dead body situation the rikishi on top must put out his hand "TO SAVE HIS OPPONENT" (from being crushed). kotonowaka's hands were out to save himself. he would not have landed on the yokozuna

No; as Jakusotsu mentioned, kabai-te and shini-tai don't necessarily go together.

As examples, going by what I understand both to be (and I'm bound to screw this up, so corrections are welcome):

kabai-te only: attacker pushes against the defender at the edge of the dohyo, eventually resulting in them falling forward (from the attacker's p-o-v) in a yoritaoshi. Attacker touches the ground with one hand in order not to fall onto the defender -> kabai-te. Probably wouldn't be shini-tai since the defender conceivably has the chance to swing the attacker around, even late during the yoritaoshi. In fact, it would probably be difficult to judge whether the attacker really invoked kabai-te or he was pulled down by the defender...

shini-tai only: attacker is in okuridashi position and launches the defender off the dohyo with a big push, but steps out before the defender hits the ground or drops below the dohyo level. (Just one blatant example of shini-tai, of course.)

shini-tai + kabai-te: defender has no real mawashi grip or other hold to speak of, attacker launches the defender in a throw that would see him land on the defender, so he touches the ground with one hand.

I'll take Mihogaseki at his word that they didn't consider kabai-te to be applying here, presumably since Kotonowaka wasn't actually in danger of landing on Asashoryu. So the question is purely whether or not Shoryu was shini-tai. One school of thought would probably be that he wasn't in control of his body anymore since he needed to rely 100% on Kotonowaka's mawashi in order not to drop to the ground, i.e. the only way that Asashoryu could have avoided eventually hitting the clay would be if Kotonowaka stood up and inadvertantly pulled Shoryu up along with him. And the other school of thought would be that Asashoryu wasn't shini-tai since he still had a chance to decide the bout himself by pulling Kotonowaka down first (which may or may not be what happened).

I do think it's pretty clear that Asashoryu would have been unable to prevent hitting the dohyo if he hadn't had that grip on Koto's mawashi. (He's not that good at doing the limbo. (Whatever above, it is funny...) Especially after being thrown; momentum would be too large to see him bridge out of it.) So it seems to come down to whether his holding on to the mawashi constituted an actual move or was just "delaying the inevitable". If it was the latter, Kotonowaka could touch down with as many body parts as he wants, he would still win the bout.

In theory anyway. (Eh?)

Edit: Almost forgot, my personal 2 cents...I think shini-tai rulings should be limited to clear cases where the defender truly has no control over his body, i.e. being in flight without any chance to affect his own momentum. Going by that, Asashoryu wasn't shini-tai, and kabai-te didn't apply, so he should have won the bout.

Edited July 13, 2004 by Asashosakari

[bennyloh]

So it seems to come down to whether his holding on to the mawashi constituted an actual move or was just "delaying the inevitable".

There was more than these , there were some actions by Shoryu: like turning his face towards Kotot's left leg, giving the thigh (front) a hard fast push with his left hand then turning his face to the right to look at Koto's right hand.

Edited July 13, 2004 by bennyloh

[Zuikakuyama]

Lots of commentary on the English side yesterday (day 9) about this day 8 match.

I dont know if I heard it clearly in the commentary on NHK, but I belive the color commentator, David Shapiro, said that Koto said if they are not going to use the dead body rule, then they should just abolish it. So that next time he can just go land on the other guy.

Not sure if this is actually said by Koto, or if it was something Mr. Shapiro thinks Koto was thinking about.

The Rijicho was also apolegetic about the decision and said that the decision of the judges should be respected.

The head judge (Dewanoumi?) also said that the fighting spirit of Shoryu was what promoted the rematch, and an effort like that had to be rewarded.

This all leads me (as an amateur) to believe that rule-wise, Koto should have won.

But again, a rematch was a good option to resolve this dilemma.

[bennyloh]

Needless to say, please do not get angry: I am just trying to understand !

Me too - I am by no means an expert on this matter ... (Eh?) I think Masumiriki's post explained "dead body" quite well (although bennyloh didn't agree with that).

Personally, I don't feel at all qualified to judge who should have won this bout. In this case, I prefer to listen to the opinions of more informed people - for instance, Takanonami's and Mainoumi's conflicting views are very interesting to read.

Another reason that I feel I should stay out of the discussion is that I am admittedly biased - I very much rooted for Kotonowaka, was delighted when I thought he had won, and was disappointed when he didn't get the win. I can go as far as saying that I think the decision to have a tori-naoshi was a cop-out - the judges should have ruled either way.

Personally I am not biased (although i am a fan of Asa), whoever wins is not important to me, but the 'monkey-child' example is bad. It would be more acceptable to give example on, lets say one party is clinging on to the other party inorder not to aggravate a badly twisted ankle or a disloacated arm or a fractured collar bone or any other kind of bodily injuries and he is in a "dead-body" situation.There's no way he can continue because of th injury and he is at the mercy of the other.

[paolo]

You're missing the fact, that from the position Asashoryu was, there was no chance for him to get back into the bout. If Kotonowaka wouldn't touch down, Asashoryu would lie on his back a split second later anyway, so the dead body rule could apply.

I agree, but Kotonowaha DID touch down before him! As far as I understand, the "dead body" idea only refers to the attacker touching the ground before the defender just to avoid making harm to the defender: so he is given the win because he has won in technical terms and giving him the loss would otherwise punish his sportsmanship... But this is not the case. Kotonowaka is by no means going to land upon Asashoryu ! Here is a fantastic and desperate fight by Asashoryu in order not to fall and to make instead Kotonowaka fall, pulling him by his mawashi, pushing his thigh and so on, and he succeeds (will and luck...).

Now, let me express my reasoning:

1. Asashoryu touches the ground a LONG time after Kotonowaka (Koto's left hand,

then Koto's right hand, then Koto's knee, then Asa's body). There is no doubt

about that, right ?.

2. So if we say that Asashoryu has lost, we are saying that in this case who

touches the ground first does not matter; otherwise Asashoryu would be

the winner without any possible doubt.

3. Therefore we are saying that EVEN BEFORE Kotonowaka touches the ground

Asashoryu is in a position where he will necessarily lose.

4. And this would necessarily lead us to one of the two following conclusions:

a. Asashoryu's position is such that Kotonowaka has the right to touch

the ground before his opponent and claim the win

or even

b. The gyoji could stop the bout and give Kotonowaka the win

without letting the bout go on (since there is no way Asa can win

anymore ...)

In case a. Kotonowaka would prefer to fall and get the win than try and stand up

running risks... This would be quite unusual and outside the logic of any kind of fight !

Case b. no way !!!

Are there other possible conclusions ? I don't see any.

[Kashunowaka]

As far as I understand, the "dead body" idea only refers to the attacker touching the ground before the defender just to avoid making harm to the defender: so he is given the win because he has won in technical terms and giving him the loss would otherwise punish his sportsmanship...

No, you have misunderstood the rule. A good example of shinitai is when a rikishi is carried out of the dohyo (tsuridashi or okuritsuridashi).

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/84.html

The attacker can step outside the dohyo before his opponent without losing. Nothing to do with avoiding to injure the other.

Other poster in this thread (Asashosakari for instance) have already elaborated more on this subject, so I repeat: re-read the posts. (Eh?)

[paolo]

I would like to apologize for mixing together in my previous note the two concepts of kabai_te and shini_tai. This happened because I have tried to put together pieces of different notes thinking that I would be able to save time... Sorry again.

But going back to the topic (shini-tai !!) may I repeat the note trying to clarify it somewhat.

1. Asashoryu touches the ground a LONG time after Kotonowaka (Koto's left hand,

then Koto's right hand, then Koto's knee, then Asa's body). There is no doubt

about that, right ?.

2. So if we say that Asashoryu has lost, we are saying that in this case who

touches the ground first does not matter; otherwise Asashoryu would be

the winner without any possible doubt.

3. Therefore we are saying that EVEN BEFORE Kotonowaka touches the ground

Asashoryu has already lost because he is "dead body".

4. And this would necessarily lead us to one of the two following conclusions:

a. Kotonowaka has the right to touch the ground before his opponent and claim

the win

or even

b. The gyoji could stop the bout and give Kotonowaka the win without letting

the bout go on

In Case a. Kotonowaka would prefer to fall and get the win than try and stand up

running risks... This would be quite unusual and outside the logic of any kind of fight !

Case b. I thought that this could never happen. But looking at the slow motion replay, the gyoji seems to start moving the fan towards Kotonowaka before he touches the ground. The point is: did he think that Asa had already touched the ground with his back, or did he consider his position as one of "dead body" ? But

in case of "dead body", does the gyoji stop the bout ?

[Kashunowaka]

3. Therefore we are saying that EVEN BEFORE Kotonowaka touches the ground

Asashoryu has already lost because he is "dead body".

Unless Asashoryu becomes shinitai exactly at the same time as Kotonowaka puts down his hand. Deciding when Asashoryu is shinitai is the hard part, and I have concluded that the reason for the torinaoshi is that they couldn't decide when (or if) Asashoryu was shinitai.

[hoshidango]

Edit: Almost forgot, my personal 2 cents...I think shini-tai rulings should be limited to clear cases where the defender truly has no control over his body, i.e. being in flight without any chance to affect his own momentum. Going by that, Asashoryu wasn't shini-tai, and kabai-te didn't apply, so he should have won the bout.

I always thought this was the case...

[Zentoryu]

3. Therefore we are saying that EVEN BEFORE Kotonowaka touches the ground

Asashoryu has already lost because he is "dead body".

Unless Asashoryu becomes shinitai exactly at the same time as Kotonowaka puts down his hand. Deciding when Asashoryu is shinitai is the hard part, and I have concluded that the reason for the torinaoshi is that they couldn't decide when (or if) Asashoryu was shinitai.

That's pretty much the explanation that the judges gave in their interviews with the Japanese press. They couldn't agree on whether Asashoryu was "dead-body" or not and thus decided the only thing they could do was call for tori-naoshi.

[paolo]

Just to see if I can definitely understand the "dead body" rule:

1. is there a place where I can find the rule described (in english !!) ?

2. has somebody ever seen a bout where the gyoji stops the bout for a "dead

body" before any of the two touches the ground or exits the dohyo ?

This should happen if, as I understand, "dead body" means directly a loss.

3. are there any bouts on Banzuke.com movies ( 25 bashos x 15 days = more or

less 3500-4000 bouts !!!!) where a "dead body" case can be seen ?

4. Somebody advised me to see the Kimarite description of okuritsuridashi. But it

says that the attacker can cross the edge with one foot without losing "because

both feets of the defender are in the air". That can easily be understood, but if

this is a case of "dead body" it cannot be considered similar to what happened

in Asashoryu-Kotonowaka....

5. Somebody wrote more or less that the same happens when somebody is thrown

in the air out of the dohyo. Here I do not understand at all: we have seen many

and many cases when a rikishi is in fly well outside the tawara with absolutely

no chance of flying back inside (ahahah...) and his opponent loses because

he touches the ground. So what has that to do with the "dead body" ?

Thank to everybody who will try to clarify these boring points... When I do not understand I tend to get crazy.... And I write hundreds of posts....

[Kashunowaka]

Just to see if I can definitely understand the "dead body" rule:

1. is there a place where I can find the rule described (in english !!) ?

The debate about the Asashoryu-Kotonowaka match has continued on the Sumo Mailing List, where there have been many initiated posts which I won't try to depict. I recommend anyone who is interested to check out the mailing list archive at http://banzuke.com. Most of the posts in this subject can be found there already, and the newest posts will turn up at the next update.

Shiroikuma (president of the Czech Sumo Union) was kind enough to translate the relevant part of the official rules and put them on his web site at http://sumou.com/peiji/kisoku.htm. This answers several of the questions posed in this thread.