Ozeki poll

[Yangnomazuma]

Could Chiyotaikai be a WHOLE lot better at anything closely resembling the belt? Of course. Is he boring? About as boring as the Atlanta Braves of American baseball. Those folks have won their division like 12 years in a row, but have only 2 (??) world series titles to show for it. What that means is they win all year but can't beat the hot team in the end. Kind of like 'Taikai. Wins 10 or 11 of the first twelve then from there can be pretty dang ugly in losses.

I still love to watch him...

[Sasanishiki]

Kind of like 'Taikai. Wins 10 or 11 of the first twelve then from there can be pretty dang ugly in losses.

I still love to watch him...

Well, doesn't that mean that he is a very consistent Ozeki? Some aren't meant for yokozuna. He is always there or there abouts right until the end of the basho, putting pressure on the yokozuna and yusho candidates (at least recently).

[Yangnomazuma]

Kind of like 'Taikai.  Wins 10 or 11 of the first twelve then from there can be pretty dang ugly in losses. 

I still love to watch him...

Well, doesn't that mean that he is a very consistent Ozeki? Some aren't meant for yokozuna. He is always there or there abouts right until the end of the basho, putting pressure on the yokozuna and yusho candidates (at least recently).

You'll never hear me complaining about the quality of his Ozeki career. If he never makes Yokozuna, he'll be one of the best Ozeki ever...can't say that's bad now can we?

[Mark Buckton]

he'll be one of the best Ozeki ever...can't say that's bad now can we?

based on? (Enjoying a beer...)

[Takanobaka]

Very Japanese mentality - seniority often far outweighs ability when decision and choices are to be made.  Bars are lowered and many companies keep former senior staff on the books, paid handsomely as 'advisors' till the day they die.

(Japan Telecom had a good many of its 'advisors' dismissed when a British firm took over couple of years back.  The US manager sent in fired almost all and caused a hell of a ruckus - result though - lover charge rates for all subscribers to Vodafone Japan - money saved on the salaries / cars / accounts of the advisors)

If someone can explain the Japanese sempai / kohai system it would go part way to expandind anyones understanding.  Would also help in explaining sumo in general.

Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate on this particular issue, I really think it's just a different philosophy. Japanese executives generally get paid a fraction of what their European (and especially American) counterparts get paid, and they don't have golden parachutes and the like when they leave. If they want to compensate those executives well, it actually makes a lot more sense to pay them out over a longer period of time so the company can get the benefit of the time-value of money. Also, there's quite a bit more loyalty in Japanese corporations in general. Unlike in America and Europe, they generally start at the bottom and work their way up to the top within the same company. In the US, someone becomes a golden boy in law or investment banking or venture capital, then gets hired to a high position and is specifically groomed to become the next CEO, and then when their term is done, they can jump to another high executive position (and they almost always do). In Japan, by the time they get that high, they're already at retirement age, so they don't have as many years at top pay, along with the top pay not being as high.

Similar situation exists in Ozumo, although more with the Gyoji and Yobidashi than with the Rikishi. To get to the top, one needs to stay in Ozumo for 40+ years, and the pay downright sucks for the first 20 of them. Part of the payoff, however, is knowing that you get a pension to cover yourself the rest of your life. I would certainly be pissed off if after all of that, some foreign corporation came in, bought out Ozumo, and cut my lifeline after 40+ years of service to the same organization. Maybe that's just me though...

Edit: Oh, voted Musoyama, the Ozeki who performs on the level of a yo-yo rikishi...

Edited July 20, 2004 by Takanobaka

[hoshidango]

he'll be one of the best Ozeki ever...can't say that's bad now can we?

based on? :-P

I don't have a stats with me, but things like number of Yushos, 10win plus basho as ozeki, or wins as Ozeki shouldn't he be one of the best(out of dead-end ozeki)?

[Zuikakuyama]

I choose other.

All of them are worthy of the rank since they qualified under the black and white rules with regards to promotion and demotion.

Now, if the question was who is the best ozeki of the current lot, that is a question I could answer, and I would answer with "Musoyama."

[hoshidango]

I choose other.

All of them are worthy of the rank since they qualified under the black and white rules with regards to promotion and demotion.

Yes, yes for sure.

Now, if the question was who is the best ozeki of the current lot, that is a question I could answer, and I would answer with "Musoyama."

THAT is one way look at it, too.

[Stephanoshima]

I voted for Musoyama. Being an Asashoryu fan, Tochiazuma is the opponent I am most concerned about. He's one-dimensional, sure, but he's good at what he's doing. With Chiyotaikai and Kaio, I think it's more his weakness than their strength if he loses to them. If he's up against Musoyama, I can't see how he can lose unless he commits a major blunder.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Tochiazuma is the opponent I am most concerned about. He's one-dimensional, sure,

Eh, could you please explain that? Tochiazuma might be a lot but one-dimensional? (Applauding...)

[Stephanoshima]

I am referring to his preferred choice of sumo techniques, not to the shape of his body.

[Doitsuyama]

I am referring to his preferred choice of sumo techniques, not to the shape of his body.

Please tell that your response was on intention of irony. I can't see it but it must be it. Just to be on the safe side, I tell you anyway: To call Tochiazuma's Sumo style one dimensional is a testament of blindness.

[Stephanoshima]

I really don't care about your opinion, and that's what it is, nothing more than an opinion, whatever you try to make it look like a fact. Too bad this forum doesn't have an Ignore List.

[Kashunowaka]

I am referring to his preferred choice of sumo techniques, not to the shape of his body.

I am curious to hear why you think Tochiazuma is one-dimensional. I have never been a fan of Tochiazuma, but I have always thought of him as a pretty allround, technical rikishi. And it's a fact that he has won the gino-sho (Technique Prize) 7 times before his promotion to ozeki. Sure, Chiyotaikai won it 3 times, and he can arguably be said to be one-dimensional. But I can't quite see how that epithet fits Tochiazuma.

[Mark Buckton]

I really don't care about your opinion, and that's what it is, nothing more than an opinion, whatever you try to make it look like a fact. Too bad this forum doesn't have an Ignore List.

:-) :-) :-)

What is sumo anyway? (Applauding...)

[QttP]

I am curious to hear why you think Tochiazuma is one-dimensional. I have never been a fan of Tochiazuma, but I have always thought of him as a pretty allround, technical rikishi. And it's a fact that he has won the gino-sho (Technique Prize) 7 times before his promotion to ozeki. Sure, Chiyotaikai won it 3 times, and he can arguably be said to be one-dimensional. But I can't quite see how that epithet fits Tochiazuma.

When will you understand that the "technique prize" is not the "technical variety prize"?

[Kashunowaka]

I am curious to hear why you think Tochiazuma is one-dimensional. I have never been a fan of Tochiazuma, but I have always thought of him as a pretty allround, technical rikishi. And it's a fact that he has won the gino-sho (Technique Prize) 7 times before his promotion to ozeki. Sure, Chiyotaikai won it 3 times, and he can arguably be said to be one-dimensional. But I can't quite see how that epithet fits Tochiazuma.

When will you understand that the "technique prize" is not the "technical variety prize"?

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?...t=0entry27925

I got no beef with you, QttP. But I frankly don't understand your recent type of postings where you post one or two sentences without contributing anything to the discussion, seemingly only to stir up angry responses.

[QttP]

Never mind, my apologies.

Edited July 22, 2004 by QttP

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Heated topic a bit!

Tochiazuma may appear to be more one-dimensional than he is because his sumo has so much nearly invisible skill and versatility. He doesn't go from susotori attempt to shitatehineri but he goes from package oshi to hazu-oshi and vice versa very fast and often in sneaky manners. Also his arm fencing is an art in itself. It is not just reckless panic trying to keep the foe off the belt, it is very often Azuma's technical weapon to beat his foes. He also does rushing yotsu with brilliant timings to his charges and can convert a yori-drive to a nice throw in a second. Tochiazuma's whole sumo philosophy seems to be "keep it compact" and this principle makes his sumo look quite similar on many days even though the versatility is definitely there.

The other thing is that Azuma is also one of the best defenders in sumo. With his unmatched inashi and lateral movement he knows the escape routes and can also resist with power and work his way into offesnive when the opening comes. In my opinion it is not only the dispersion of winning techniques that makes rikishi's skill spectrum large but it is also the means of how rikishi sets his foes up to those oshidashi and yorikiri-wins. You don't find leg techniques in Azuma's repertoire but that is not a sign of one-dimensional sumo.

[Kashunowaka]

Heated topic a bit!

Is it really? (Clapping wildly...) So far one person has said that Tochiazuma's sumo is one-dimensional. The rest of the world is waiting to know why. (Just do not get it...) It was an excellent post Kaikitsune, but I think you are preaching to the choir ...

[Burainoan]

I think one of the more telling things about Tochi is that fact that Wakanohana III said he was very happy that his final match was against him, because he enjoyed his matches with Tochi so much. for a master technician like him to say that is a very high compliment.

actually, i think he shares one thing with Waka: if they had been in sumo 40 or so years ago, they both would have been strong yokozuna. both achieved because of their skill, and despite their size. (okay, Waka's being in Futagoyama didn't hurt, but he likely would've made ozeki in either case.)

i would pick Muso, btw, if i had to pick one. he was a fairly solid ozeki up to a year or two ago, but has pretty much been hanging on by his fingernails since then. (and will likely be out by sometime next year at the latest, especially with kosho gone.) Kaio is becoming a shadow of his former self, but can still do the rank proud. he and Chiyo will likely go down as very strong ozeki. does anybody recall that Chiyo is only about 2 1/2 years away from tying Takanohana's record of 50 basho at ozeki. and possibly with better numbers. and a Rikishi of the Year award under his belt.

a strong ozeki is one who competes for the yusho and wins solidly, and that's what they all do. with the exception of Muso.

[Elenrian]

I chosed Musoyama! His latest 13-2 dates back to janiary 2000, his latest 12-3 to march 2001, his latest 11-4 to july 1999, his latest 10-5 to july 2003!! (Sign of disapproval) (Sign of disapproval) I don't know how he keeps his rank! 8-7/7-8, it is for maegashiras, not for Ozekis!! The ozeki rank is too hard to loose!

[sashimaru]

I picked Chiyotaikai.

I just can't stand his pulling habits.

He is the Ozeki in reverse gear. (Applauding...)

[QttP]

I picked Chiyotaikai.

I just can't stand his pulling habits.

He is the Ozeki in reverse gear. (Applauding...)

He's pulling is the best in the game, though. I just love it how he wins so many bouts at the edge. Looking backwards over the past couple of years - whenever there was a close situation with Taikai at the edge (and there were quite a few of them), he never lost.

[Naganoyama]

I picked Chiyotaikai.

I just can't stand his pulling habits.

He is the Ozeki in reverse gear.  (Applauding...)

He's pulling is the best in the game, though. I just love it how he wins so many bouts at the edge. Looking backwards over the past couple of years - whenever there was a close situation with Taikai at the edge (and there were quite a few of them), he never lost.

He has superb balance too. That ballet-like step he does on the tawara sometimes is just awesome.