chishafuwaku 476 Posted February 9, 2015 BOUT TIME 17 45 13 6 10 14 2 8 9 28 9 14 60 7 18 KK ---------- D1 D2 D3 D4 D5 D6 D7 D8 D9 D10 D11 D12 D13 D14 D15 BASHO RESULT Tsukiko 12 9 5 8 11 13 7 16 10 16 9 19 12 11 18 ---------- ---------- 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 (13-2) Tsukiko Mmikasazuma 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 13 14 14 14 15 15 15 ---------- ---------- 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 (12-3) Mmikasazuma chishafuwaku 11 8 6 8 9 10 5 5 9 20 7 20 7 7 17 ---------- ---------- 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 (10-5) chishafuwaku Ayagawa 13 13 8 20 10 16 6 6 12 8 12 15 8 5 12 ---------- ---------- 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 (9-6) Ayagawa orandashoho 8 3 8 12 7 17 5 6 10 3 11 6 10 7 11 ---------- ---------- 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 (9-6) orandashoho Tenshinhan 10 15 7 9 5 14 18 10 8 13 7 15 6 10 30 ---------- ---------- 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 (9-6) Tenshinhan Profomisakari 7 5 6 8 8 10 9 5 11 12 11 15 10 14 13 ---------- ---------- 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 (9-6) Profomisakari Senkoho 5 14 4 7 9 4 6 6 5 13 9 14 4 5 11 ---------- ---------- 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 (8-7) Senkoho Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted February 9, 2015 BOUT TIME 17 45 13 6 10 14 2 8 9 28 9 14 60 7 18 MK ---------- D1 D2 D3 D4 D5 D6 D7 D8 D9 D10 D11 D12 D13 D14 D15 BASHO RESULT Jakusotsu 8 3 9 6 7 7 6 5 11 9 8 12 5 4 3 ---------- ---------- 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 (6-9) Jakusotsu Ganzohnesushi 14 4 7 6 5 8 8 4 11 15 7 10 9 6 4 ---------- ---------- 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 (6-9) Ganzohnesushi kuroimori 8 5 4 24 7 8 5 6 9 11 6 13 5 4 10 ---------- ---------- 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 (5-10) kuroimori Andonishiki 14 9 12 6 6 6 13 5 13 5 5 11 4 10 7 ---------- ---------- 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 (5-10) Andonishiki shimodahito 7 14 5 7 6 6 5 4 3 9 5 4 11 3 13 ---------- ---------- 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 (5-10) shimodahito Wamahada 6 8 7 11 4 11 12 7 14 8 6 3 14 6 10 ---------- ---------- 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 (4-11) Wamahada Susanoo 4 5 6 14 7 4 6 4 12 23 5 9 5 6 14 ---------- ---------- 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 (4-11) Susanoo Shokikogi … … … … 6 9 7 6 7 11 6 13 8 12 22 ---------- ---------- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 (4-7-4) Shokikogi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Thank you to all who feed back. First, why I created the rule that anyone who is on top of the daily result is ahead of that bet below? I was afraid that there were many similar results and therefore it will be difficult to find differences between players. But from the moment that this rule is in use, when considering the daily bet there would always be a dilemma: bet on "more normal" values, maybe around 4-8, or venture into higher values. I peacefully accepted that most people do not like this rule, but this game could be played perfectly in this way, and I think some players may not be well read the rules, or are unaware of the idea behind them. Looking to the real bout times of this basho, I note that 11 of them took at least 9 seconds. Normally it´s not usually this. That´s why who bets for longer fights generally took advantage. But seems a little unfair to criticize face to poor results. However, of course, if the major criticisms to this game is this rule, it will be set aside. About Mmikasazuma´s result: What´s the difference between one player bet on day1 11 bet on day2 11 bet on day3 11 bet on day4 12 bet on day5 12 bet on day6 12 bet on day7 13 bet on day8 13 bet on day9 13 bet on day10 14 bet on day11 14 bet on day12 14 bet on day13 15 bet on day14 15 bet on day15 15 and make the bet 11 on day1 and dark gamble next days given that there were default picks? We can discuss whether this game has or not has this option but seems to me unfair criticize this rule based on Mmikasazuma´s result. If "normal" lower bout times happened Mmikasazuma possible would have done MK. Looking at the daily championship games on this aspect: with default picks: Bench, CG, ISP, SGwithout default picks: Tipspiel, Odd, SO, ST, TTT. Odd and SO naturally don´t have, but Tipspiel, ST and TTT could have a system based on luck. I prefer to have a default pick rather not having one, but can be also argued what system to use. An alternative to the system previously used is to consider the time of previous day plus another second. So if anyone repeat what Mmikasazuma did this basho, I doubt if are able to get a good result only with entry on the first day. Later I will continue this thread. chishafuwaku Edited February 9, 2015 by chishafuwaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganzohnesushi 548 Posted February 9, 2015 ... and I think some players may not be well read the rules, or are unaware of the idea behind them.... I'm perfectly aware of the idea behind. But still... Mmikasazuma's result is a joke! A player who participates in a daily game just one day can't achieve KK. Please don't refer to ISP or CG. The default pick can be used only three days in a row in ISP and five days in total. And the default pick rule in Chain Gang is also limited to five days max.14 or 15 days droning in SG will lead to nothing but a heavy MK, at least in Makuuchi and Juryo. One might survive in lower Makushita sometimes (e.g. check results for Kireinahana (8 KK in 56 Basho), Shidarezakura (3 KK in 39 Basho) or Hanafubuki (5 KK in 24 attempts), but this might be caused by drones winning vs. drones often enough. Ganzohnesushi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orandashoho 720 Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) There is not much fun in playing the rules rather than playing the game. When the object is to guess the bout time, an earnest attempt to do so should be rewarded more than clever exploitation of the rules. Edited February 9, 2015 by orandashoho 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted February 10, 2015 ... and I think some players may not be well read the rules, or are unaware of the idea behind them.... I'm perfectly aware of the idea behind. But still... Mmikasazuma's result is a joke! Time Bet Count % Cumulative % 3 7 2,97 2,97 4 16 6,78 9,75 5 26 11,02 20,76 6 29 12,29 33,05 7 23 9,75 42,8 8 20 8,47 51,27 9 16 6,78 58,05 10 14 5,93 63,98 11 19 8,05 72,03 12 15 6,36 78,39 13 14 5,93 84,32 14 14 5,93 90,25 15 8 3,39 93,64 16 3 1,27 94,92 17 2 0,85 95,76 18 2 0,85 96,61 19 1 0,42 97,03 20 3 1,27 98,31 22 1 0,42 98,73 23 1 0,42 99,15 24 1 0,42 99,58 30 1 0,42 100 Total 236 100 ….. I don´t was refer to anyone in particular. It was the impression that I had with some of the bets that were happening. Looking at the table it is noticed that there are more than 50% of the bets below 9 seconds. Given the damn rule, it seems to me a large percentage. ………. First Week Last Week Average 8,64 10,15 Median 8 10 Another factor is that in the second week the average and the median values are greater than the first week which may indicate (ignoring the fights) that at least in the beginning not all of us were conveniently alerted to that rule. A player who participates in a daily game just one day can't achieve KK. Please don't refer to ISP or CG. The default pick can be used only three days in a row in ISP and five days in total. And the default pick rule in Chain Gang is also limited to five days max.ones winning vs. drones often enough. Mea-culpa (Blushing...) . I forgot that limitation, probably because I only use the default picks very rarely. There is not much fun in playing the rules rather than playing the game. When the object is to guess the bout time, an earnest attempt to do so should be rewarded more than clever exploitation of the rules. OK I agreed with you too. So in the future, let´s adopt similar rule: max 5 times for absent daily bets (but not more than 3 days in a row). What about the default bet? Choose for me like this: the last day entrie plus 1 (first absent); last day plus 2 (second absent); ... Or a time bet choose by the players in the beginning of basho? chishafuwaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Gino-sho table: Diffs vs Orders Diffs ………. W-L | Orders ……… W-L 140 Tsukiko (13-2) | 70 Tsukiko (13-2) 160 chishafuwaku (10-5) | 77 chishafuwaku (10-5) 166 Mmikasazuma (12-3) | 87 Mmikasazuma (12-3) 171 Tenshinhan (9-6) | 93 Ayagawa (9-6) 175 Ayagawa (9-6) | 107 orandashoho (9-6) 183 Profomisakari (9-6) | 108 Tenshinhan (9-6) 190 Senkoho (8-7) | 109 Profomisakari (8-7) 195 orandashoho (9-6) | 117 Senkoho (9-6) 201 Ganzohnesushi (6-9) | 128 Ganzohnesushi (6-9) 206 Andonishiki (5-10) | 128 kuroimori (5-10) 211 Shokikogi (5-10) | 135 Jakusotsu (5-10) 213 Susanoo (5-10) | 139 Andonishiki (5-10) 214 Jakusotsu (6-9) | 148 shimodahito (6-9) 214 shimodahito (4-11) | 150 Shokikogi (4-11) 218 kuroimori (4-11) | 158 Susanoo (4-11) 220 Wamahada (4-7-4) | 159 Wamahada (4-7-4) Overall there are not many differences between the two alternatives.However the next time I will consider orders as in kanto-sho.What I notice is that if the winner of this award wins the basho too, something has to be changed.(However I also believe that it´s possible win here without winning the basho) Kanto-sho table: Diffs vs Orders Diffs ………. W-L | Orders ……… W-L 20,2 shimodahito (5-10) | 6 Profomisakari (9-6) 16,8 Wamahada (4-11) | 5,3 Shokikogi (4-7-4) 12,5 Ganzohnesushi (6-9) | 4,8 Susanoo (4-11) 11,9 Profomisakari (9-6) | 4,7 Jakusotsu (6-9) 11,8 Mmikasazuma (12-3) | 4,5 Wamahada (4-11) 9,7 Tsukiko (13-2) | 4,2 kuroimori (5-10) 8,8 orandashoho (9-6) | 4 Ganzohnesushi (6-9) 8,6 Andonishiki (5-10) | 4 Mmikasazuma (12-3) 8,4 Tenshinhan (9-6) | 3,7 chishafuwaku (10-5) 8 Senkoho (8-7) | 3,6 Ayagawa (9-6) 8 Shokikogi (4-7-4) | 3,6 orandashoho (9-6) 7,5 Susanoo (4-11) | 3,6 shimodahito (5-10) 6,8 Ayagawa (9-6) | 3,5 Senkoho (8-7) 5 kuroimori (5-10) | 3,5 Tsukiko (13-2) 4,8 chishafuwaku (10-5) | 3,4 Tenshinhan (9-6) 3,5 Jakusotsu (6-9) | 2,4 Andonishiki (5-10) First an apology for having miscalculated this award.The premium is due to Profomisakari (Applauding...) and not to Mmikasazuma, what should calm down a bit the "rage" of Ganzohnesushi ;-) . When confirmed the results I found that there were some inaccuracies.But I think it is better to admit the error and fix it than leave it eternal. Clearly here the best is to use the orders, because as already said, to only consider the average of the days when there are a win, who wins gets great advantage over those who loses.(In this basho in day 2 = 45sec; day 10 = 28, and 13 = 60 sank the losers) The victory of Profomisakari in the correct version is imperial. Had an average of 6 (in his nine wins) when the number of daily winners is usually 8, is brilliant. chishafuwaku Edited February 11, 2015 by chishafuwaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Contrary to what you might think, I also wish that this game is simple and easy to play. So for now, I would not change the type of entry.Just a number and not with decimal values. The simple way. I also think that lose with, say, 6,1 vs a win with of 6,2, would lead many to question the justice of that. Nobody refers to the limitation of three equal entries for all basho. I think the best is to eliminate this rule also. Who wants to repeat the entries can do it, but don´t forget they will be penalized with the tie-break rule. chishafuwaku Edited February 11, 2015 by chishafuwaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wamahada 63 Posted March 3, 2015 As the actual concept of scoring is not really convincing me I will not participate any longer in this game. The games title "BOUT TIME" made me think that the focus is on the real bout times. If I give an estimation of a bout time this particular estimation should not be transferred with a highly sophisticated formula into something different which hardly can be followed. And I fully agree to the comments of Ganzohnesushi concerning the score of Mmikasazuma, who only made one pick on day 1 and finished KK. Sorry, but gaming means fun and this game does not make fun. Wamahada Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted March 3, 2015 As the actual concept of scoring is not really convincing me I will not participate any longer in this game. It is unfortunate to hear that. The new rules will be simpler, without that rule that did not pleased many people. As for the fact that there are some very sophisticated formula, I just tried to do something like the sekitori-toto where half won and half lost. In this case the way to do it will be sort players for their approach to the correct value of the day. The nearest half will win, the other will lose. chishafuwaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chishafuwaku 476 Posted March 3, 2015 And I fully agree to the comments of Ganzohnesushi concerning the score of Mmikasazuma, who only made one pick on day 1 and finished KK. As is mentioned above, with the new rules: max 5 times for absent daily bets (but not more than 3 days in a row). So this is not possible again. It seems to me excessive criticism since it was only the first basho, so with possible problems. If she has no interest in playing again, quickly will fall in banzuke chishafuwaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
