Tenshinhan Posted November 27, 2014 Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) Rikishi basho win-loss-absence average wins Hakuho 6 81-9 13,5 Kakuryu 6 71-19 11,8 Kisenosato 6 58-32 9,7 Goeido 6 53-37 8,8 Tochiozan 6 51-32-7 8,5 Kotoshogiku 6 49-41 8,2 Takayasu 6 48-42 8,0 Harumafuji 6 47-18-25 7,8 Aoiyama 6 47-43 7,8 Osunaarashi 6 45-39-6 7,5 Ikioi 6 45-45 7,5 Takarafuji 6 45-45 7,5 Endo 6 45-45 7,5 Yoshikaze 6 44-43-3 7,3 Chiyootori 6 44-46 7,3 Aminishiki 6 43-47 7,2 Kaisei 6 42-48 7,0 Kyokutenho 6 42-48 7,0 Toyonoshima 6 41-44-5 6,8 Okinoumi 6 41-48-1 6,8 Terunofuji 5 40-35 8,0 Toyohibiki 6 40-50 6,7 Jokoryu 5 39-36 7,8 Takekaze 6 39-51 6,5 Tamawashi 6 39-51 6,5 Shohozan 6 39-51 6,5 Kitataiki 6 38-52 6,3 Chiyotairyu 6 37-49-4 6,2 Myogiryu 6 36-28-26 6,0 Kyokushuho 5 36-39 7,2 Tochinowaka 6 34-56 5,7 Chiyomaru 5 33-42 6,6 Sadanoumi 4 31-29 7,8 Sokokurai 4 31-29 7,8 Tokushoryu 5 31-44 6,2 Arawashi 4 30-30 7,5 Takanoiwa 5 30-45 6,0 Gagamaru 4 26-34 6,5 Tokitenku 4 24-36 6,0 Kagamio 4 23-37 5,8 Ichinojo 2 21-9 10,5 Masunoyama 3 19-26 6,3 Azumaryu 3 13-17-15 4,3 Sadanofuji 3 12-33 4,0 Tochinoshin 1 11-4 11,0 Satoyama 2 11-19 5,5 Homasho 4 10-11-39 2,5 Kotooshu 2 9-17-4 4,5 Homarefuji 1 8-7 8,0 Kotoyuki 2 8-7-15 4,0 Amuru 1 5-10 5,0 Fujiazuma 2 5-10-15 2,5 Wakanosato 1 5-10 5,0 Tenkaiho 1 3-8-4 3,0 Shotenro 1 2-13 2,0 Edited November 23, 2015 by Tenshinhan 9
ALAKTORN Posted November 27, 2014 Posted November 27, 2014 Interesting. Kotoshōgiku’s is pretty bad, even with 7 absences Tochiōzan does better.
krindel Posted November 27, 2014 Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) Not to mention exactly how bad Goeido's 53-37 is for someone who is on the year of his Ozeki run... Edit: Corrected Edited November 27, 2014 by krindel
Jakusotsu Posted November 27, 2014 Posted November 27, 2014 Not to mention exactly how bad Goeido's 58-32 is for someone who is on the year of his Ozeki run...Although it's actually 53-37, it's still his best annual performance since his Sekitori debut in 2007.
Asameshimae Posted November 27, 2014 Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) I just hope Goeido doesn't go KK next time and have an ignomious demotion from Ozeki. Can't we bring back yaocho or at least the Ozeki backscratching club? That's just depressing. (Sigh...) Edited November 27, 2014 by Asameshimae
krindel Posted November 27, 2014 Posted November 27, 2014 Not to mention exactly how bad Goeido's 58-32 is for someone who is on the year of his Ozeki run...Although it's actually 53-37, it's still his best annual performance since his Sekitori debut in 2007. Sure... That just means that a guy whose best annual performance ever is a bit less than 59% winning percentage or (8,8 wins per basho) was deemed good enough to be an Ozeki... (thanks for the correction, btw)
Mongolith Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 Probably would be better if he gets demoted as his promotion was a charade. Should have MK'd in the middle of his run and should have MK'd on his first Ozeki basho. Geeku just looks shot physically so I am not gonna criticize him.
Tsubame Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 A 32 win record over three bashos as san'yaku with two jun-yushos is a charade for you? Kisenosato also just got 32 wins and only one jun-yusho. Was his promotion also a charade? Is he also an undeserving ozeki? @Tenshinhan Nice table. Can you add the numbers of bashos the rikishi joined in mkuuchi? And an average win per basho? 2
krindel Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 (edited) A 32 win record over three bashos as san'yaku with two jun-yushos is a charade for you? Kisenosato also just got 32 wins and only one jun-yusho. Was his promotion also a charade? Is he also an undeserving ozeki? Kisenosato's promotion was also a bit iffy and based on his implied potential rather than his immediate success, but he was a fast riser who had both a double digit win average in the last year before becoming an Ozeki, plus double digits for the last three basho, plus a very consistent presence . To put it bluntly, everyone knew that Kisenosato would soon make ozeki, so basically they just promoted him anyway. It was a very debatable choice, and with the obvious political necessity behind it, but it proved right in the end as he is more than deserving as an Ozeki. Goeido has never had two double digit win basho in a row in the jo'i, has never had a double digit average year (or any six basho period for that matter), and was kept as Sekiwake twice after MK. So, if you promote someone to Ozeki who has an 8-7 or a 7-8 literally every second basho, it just means that you consider this an acceptable standard of performance for an Ozeki and can't really act surprised if he continues this pattern after... Edited November 28, 2014 by krindel 8
dingo Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 Right, but Goeido should be entitled to have a settle-in period. I'm sure being a new Ozeki brings new duties etc. that distract to some extent from basho preparations. And looking at previous records, Kakuryu didn't display stellar results nor sumo either before his yokozuna run. Yet now people often mention how worthy he is of the promotion. So I wouldn't tear down Goeido so much; even though 5-10 *is* disappointing, he still deserves a chance to prove his ozeki-worthiness at Hatsu -- and should he remain ozeki, at the other bashos as well. 1
Asashosakari Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 Goeido has never had two double digit win basho in a row in the jo'i, has never had a double digit average year (or any six basho period for that matter), and was kept as Sekiwake twice after MK. So, if you promote someone to Ozeki who has an 8-7 or a 7-8 literally every second basho, it just means that you consider this an acceptable standard of performance for an Ozeki and can't really act surprised if he continues this pattern after...I suppose it's partially the age-old question of what's better, consistency or occasional excellence - I'm firmly in the camp that 10-10-10-10 is more worthy of the ozeki rank than 8-12-8-12, even though the latter has made it closer to the 33-win target. But that's because I'm not a believer in "ozeki should always challenge for the yusho", I'm happy enough when they simply provide the proverbial great wall as the guys who stop the rest of the joi-jin from advancing further. And a rikishi who consistently wins a minimum of 9 bouts does that a whole lot better than somebody who's battling for his kachikoshi till the last minute in every other basho, even if their scorelines both average out to the same. In the end, it's telling that Kisenosato just had a pretty crappy year by his recent standards, yet he still outscored "career year" Goeido by 5. Not that any of that means I'm suddenly against the Goeido promotion, because I'm not, but if Goeido ends up failing as ozeki I'll be a lot less surprised than I would have been if Kisenosato had failed. 2
Morty Posted November 29, 2014 Posted November 29, 2014 It's interesting here to convert these to winning percentages for the bouts they actually competed in. Hak - 90% Kak - 79% HF - 72% Kise - 64% Tochiozan - 61% (working injured a lot of the time) Goeido - 59% Myogiryu - 56% (working injured a lot of the time) Giku - 54% (working injured a lot of the time) Takayasu - 53% Aioyama - 52% Everybody else sits in the just break even territory. I'm not counting Ichinojo and Tochinoshin because they only had two and one bashos respectively. Now while stats can lie in that Ozan had a basho at M8E, and got an 11-4 while down there, this is also somewhat balanced out in that he went 2-6 then kyujo at S1W. So his statistical dominance came while he was Sanyaku and he still had a better record than Goeido. Had he not got injured I'm betting we'd be seeing him at Ozeki now rather than Goeido. The really interesting thing for me here is how far ahead of everyone else the Yokozunae are statistically and how much of a level playing field it is for everyone else. The only rikishi who won at least twice as many times as they lost were the three Yoks. Kise came very close to this mark in what was a poor year for him as Ozeki, but then it is a steep statistical slide into territory where most people only win a couple more than they lose over the year. Rarified air at the top. 3
Asameshimae Posted November 29, 2014 Posted November 29, 2014 It is good to see the fact that Ama and Kaku are pulling their weight shows up in the numbers. I think they are both fine Yoks. Kaku was in it until the end, which is exactly what is expected of a Yokozuna. Ama hasn't shown for a while, but when he does...
Hakuyobaku Posted November 29, 2014 Posted November 29, 2014 And a rikishi who consistently wins a minimum of 9 bouts does that a whole lot better than somebody who's battling for his kachikoshi till the last minute in every other basho, even if their scorelines both average out to the same. I had to look this up now that you say it and Goeido doesn't have a 3 basho streak of 9 wins or more in his career other than that one time when he was returning back from Juryo! Shit I don't think he even has a 2 basho streak of 9 or more wins!
yorikiried by fate Posted November 29, 2014 Posted November 29, 2014 And a rikishi who consistently wins a minimum of 9 bouts does that a whole lot better than somebody who's battling for his kachikoshi till the last minute in every other basho, even if their scorelines both average out to the same. I had to look this up now that you say it and Goeido doesn't have a 3 basho streak of 9 wins or more in his career other than that one time when he was returning back from Juryo! Shit I don't think he even has a 2 basho streak of 9 or more wins! He had once. [!!!!] January and March 2009 (10-5 and 9-6 at M3 and K, respectively. [Already had Ozeki written all over him at that time, it seems]
Asashosakari Posted November 30, 2014 Posted November 30, 2014 He had once. [!!!!] January and March 2009 (10-5 and 9-6 at M3 and K, respectively. [Already had Ozeki written all over him at that time, it seems] Although in the 10-5 he managed to avoid Asashoryu and Hakuho (who both finished 14-1).
alaninjapan Posted December 1, 2014 Posted December 1, 2014 I think Goeido got over-promoted. An adequate sekiwake is not an ozeki. 8-7 forever shouldn't tickle the top ranks. I have lived in Kansai, Nara, in particular for the last 13 years and we have perilously few sumo boys as it is, but i do hope this promotion wasnt another Takanohara bums on seats in Osaka plan. The guy just doesnt look good enough, all those tournaments in sanyaku dont lie.
Tenshinhan Posted November 23, 2015 Author Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Rikishi basho win-loss-absence average wins KK Hakuho 6 66-12-12 13,2* 5 Terunofuji 6 65-25 10,8 6 Kisenosato 6 62-28 10,3 6 Yoshikaze 6 54-36 9,0 5 Tochiozan 6 51-39 8,5 5 Kotoshogiku 6 50-39-1 8,3 5 Goeido 6 48-41-1 8,0 5 Tochinoshin 6 48-42 8,0 4 Osunaarashi 6 47-35-8 8,6* 4 Kotoyuki 6 47-43 7,8 5 Harumafuji 6 46-16-28 11,3* 4 Kyokushuho 6 46-44 7,7 4 Tokushoryu 6 46-44 7,7 3 Ikioi 6 44-46 7,3 4 Kakuryu 6 43-18-29 10,8* 4 Kaisei 6 43-47 7,2 2 Aminishiki 6 42-44-4 7,0 3 Ichinojo 6 42-48 7,0 3 Myogiryu 6 42-48 7,0 4 Takarafuji 6 42-48 7,0 3 Toyonoshima 6 41-48-1 6,8 2 Aoiyama 6 41-49 6,8 2 Sadanoumi 6 41-49 6,8 2 Okinoumi 6 40-39-11 8,0* 3 Tamawashi 6 40-50 6,7 3 Homarefuji 6 39-51 6,5 2 Sadanofuji 6 39-51 6,5 3 Gagamaru 5 38-37 7,6 2 Endo 6 38-43-9 6,8* 2 Takekaze 6 38-52 6,3 2 Amuru 5 36-39 7,2 3 Takayasu 6 35-44-11 6,8* 2 Sokokurai 5 33-32-10 8,0* 3 Chiyootori 5 32-28-15 8,0* 2 Kitataiki 5 32-43 6,4 1 Toyohibiki 5 29-46 5,8 1 Tokitenku 5 25-35-15 6,3* 1 Chiyotairyu 4 23-26-11 7,3* 2 Kyokutenho 4 22-38 5,5 1 Shohozan 3 21-24 7,0 2 Kagamio 3 20-25 6,7 1 Chiyomaru 3 18-27 6,0 1 Arawashi 3 17-28 5,7 1 Jokoryu 3 15-27-3 5,0 0 Seiro 2 14-16 7,0 0 Daieisho 2 13-17 6,5 0 Takanoiwa 2 13-17 6,5 0 Hidenoumi 2 12-18 6,0 0 Asasekiryu 2 10-20 5,0 0 Mitakeumi 1 8-7 8,0 1 Satoyama 1 5-10 5,0 0 Fujiazuma 1 3-12 3,0 0 Tosayutaka 1 0-2-13 0 0 * all bashos with over 50 percent absences are excluded from "average wins" The greatest improvements compared to last year are made by Kotoyuki (+39 wins), Tochinoshin (+37), Homarefuji, Amuru (both +31) and Sadanofuji (+27). The quintet managed to (re-) establish in the top division. The major losers are Kakuryu (-28 wins compared to last year) and Jokoryu (-24). Tochiozan (51) and Toyonoshima (41) got exactly the same number of wins. With Hidenoumi, Seiro, Daieisho and Mitakeumi we had four makuuchi debutants in 2015. Tosayutaka and Asasekiryu were returning for a short visit after long lasting top division absences. Only Kisenosato and Terunofuji got their Kachikoshi in every tournament. And of course Mitakeumi as he had only one basho in makuuchi. Kotoyuki got five KK in 2015 which is pretty cool. He is the only non-sanyaku rikishi achieving this. Edited November 23, 2015 by Tenshinhan 12
ALAKTORN Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 Wow, so Hakuhō only barely beat Terunofuji in the end, huh?
kuroimori Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 Wow, so Hakuhō only barely beat Terunofuji in the end, huh? Well, as already mentioned, Hakuho achieved this including a 0-3-12 basho. Also, he doesn't have the advantage of having "heya banzuke support" like Teru has it with Harumafuji (OK, he also missed 2 basho thus year) as well as Takarafuji and Aminishiki who are ranked in the upper ranks and which he does not have to fight. I am still wondering how this statistics will look like at the end of 2016, if Teru will hopefully return health in January.
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