Kyushu 2014 - General Talk

[Asameshimae]

"Except Asa, who made Hak look like a saint..."

That was my first thought when I wondered how much Hakuho was going to get grief for this. I also wonder (and I could be dead wrong, and that's okay) if he wouldn't have done it if his opponent hadn't been a Mongolian. I think sometimes there is a playful roughness between the Mongolians that comes out on the dohyo sometimes.

[Monnodo]

But why would there be roughness between Hakuho and Terunofuji? Didn't Hakuhos father bring Terunofuji into sumo? I guess it was just a heat of the moment thing, and I guess we will see a more collected akuho at the end from his bouts from now on^^

[lackmaker]

I love Hakuho and am excited to see him break the record next year. But he is making if very hard to defend himself against accusations that he is an excrement exit.

Let's also hope that today's match signals the end of ichinojo's 1-2 matts-henna staple.

I just think Hakuho gets caught up in the contest. He clearly regretted it today straight after doing it and helped Terunofuji up. Anyone who has played any sport knows it is hard to switch the passion on and off and I suspect it is particularly hard when the contest goes for all of about 3 seconds but during that time you are essentially fighting your opponent. One of the reasons I think Hak is the best is because he takes what he does so seriously. He really cares about winning and losing - when Tochiozan nearly beat him the other day his face said everything you need to know about how much he cares. I doubt he wishes any of his opponents ill, he is just totally focussed on that moment, the few seconds of the contest which defines whether he is a champion or not, and it is often only a split second between the end of that moment and the extra shove that people don't like. Channelling the focus to win and then switching it off immediately straight after winning probably isn't as easy as those of us sitting on the sidelines seem to think it might be.

A much more reasoned explanation than some of the simplistic disapproval of his behaviour.

[Kotoshoumi]

Toyonoshima was so crafty again today against Tochinoshin! Gotta love that little bugger!

[Masumasumasu]

I love Hakuho and am excited to see him break the record next year. But he is making if very hard to defend himself against accusations that he is an excrement exit.

Let's also hope that today's match signals the end of ichinojo's 1-2 matts-henna staple.

I just think Hakuho gets caught up in the contest. He clearly regretted it today straight after doing it and helped Terunofuji up. Anyone who has played any sport knows it is hard to switch the passion on and off and I suspect it is particularly hard when the contest goes for all of about 3 seconds but during that time you are essentially fighting your opponent. One of the reasons I think Hak is the best is because he takes what he does so seriously. He really cares about winning and losing - when Tochiozan nearly beat him the other day his face said everything you need to know about how much he cares. I doubt he wishes any of his opponents ill, he is just totally focussed on that moment, the few seconds of the contest which defines whether he is a champion or not, and it is often only a split second between the end of that moment and the extra shove that people don't like. Channelling the focus to win and then switching it off immediately straight after winning probably isn't as easy as those of us sitting on the sidelines seem to think it might be.

A much more reasoned explanation than some of the simplistic disapproval of his behaviour.

Nonsense.

Yoshikaze (for example) has no trouble shutting off his agression immediately once a given match is over; and he is more aggressive than Hakuho pound for pound.

[Akinomaki]

Takayasu looked more like the ozeki in his bout with Goeido.

But why would there be roughness between Hakuho and Terunofuji? Didn't Hakuhos father bring Terunofuji into sumo? I guess it was just a heat of the moment thing, and I guess we will see a more collected akuho at the end from his bouts from now on^^

There is that story of Wakamisho (now Terunofuji) kind of having betrayed Hakuho by going to Harumafuji's heya.

[Jakusotsu]

But why would there be roughness between Hakuho and Terunofuji?

If you watch Hakuho after the bout, you'll notice he has severe pain in his left eye. Intentionally or not, it's not easy being gentle to somebody who just poked you in the eye.

[Asashosakari]

Except Asa, who made Hak look like a saint...

And Harumafuji, who's also had his share of questionable shoves both pre- and post-promotion...

[Asashosakari]

Wonder if they'll rejig the schedule for the final days to put Kisenosato in with the three yokozuna instead of the customary O1e (Kotoshogiku)? Can't imagine that Harumafuji versus a probably makekoshi Giku - if he even makes it that far - will be much of a senshuraku attraction.

[shumitto]

We are all used to Hakuho's late shoves, but this one from the ground was too much even for him, and this time the "it was with the flow" excuse won't wash. Anyhow, Hakuho can sharp his street brawl skills with Aoiyama in a few days, in case he still interested.

Goeido is the mediocre Ozeki he was bound to become, but the silver lining is that Kotoshogiku's sorry performances don't let him be the worst Ozeki of all. Woohoo !

In terms of overall manners Kakuryu is the best Yokozuna of all, all he need is a Yokozuna-like performance. A trifle thing, as you can see. :-P

[lackmaker]

I love Hakuho and am excited to see him break the record next year. But he is making if very hard to defend himself against accusations that he is an excrement exit.

Let's also hope that today's match signals the end of ichinojo's 1-2 matts-henna staple.

I just think Hakuho gets caught up in the contest. He clearly regretted it today straight after doing it and helped Terunofuji up. Anyone who has played any sport knows it is hard to switch the passion on and off and I suspect it is particularly hard when the contest goes for all of about 3 seconds but during that time you are essentially fighting your opponent. One of the reasons I think Hak is the best is because he takes what he does so seriously. He really cares about winning and losing - when Tochiozan nearly beat him the other day his face said everything you need to know about how much he cares. I doubt he wishes any of his opponents ill, he is just totally focussed on that moment, the few seconds of the contest which defines whether he is a champion or not, and it is often only a split second between the end of that moment and the extra shove that people don't like. Channelling the focus to win and then switching it off immediately straight after winning probably isn't as easy as those of us sitting on the sidelines seem to think it might be.

A much more reasoned explanation than some of the simplistic disapproval of his behaviour.

Nonsense.

Yoshikaze (for example) has no trouble shutting off his agression immediately once a given match is over; and he is more aggressive than Hakuho pound for pound.

Reckon the aggression/focus issue is somewhat more complicated than that.There is likely a combination of factors that make Hakuho the competitor he is.Morty makes a compelling theoretical explanation which of course may not be true.

[Treblemaker]

Hakuho is a competitor, and a skilled one at that. I still won't say he's the best sumo wrestler in terms of completeness, but his size, and years of fighting absolutely nobody built up a style which is good enough to do nothing but keep winning. I wouldn't even say he's the strongest guy up there. But he's the most experienced at that level, and is still vulnerable to someone who starts - and finishes - a bout. Certainly Hak isn't as strong as, say, Asa, and Baruto, when healthy, gave him a run for his money. But I think the aggressiveness we've seen over the last couple of years speaks to the rising parity of the competition which simply wasn't there 3-5 years ago. Back then, nobody could touch Hak, and no one was in his face as much as they are now. Add the declining abilities which go with age and you have a supreme athlete that is beginning to show a side that wasn't necessarily shown before.

I remember the shoving match between him and Asa after that "extra shove". And being "caught in the moment" is every bit valid. The late Derek Boogard, one of the most feared pugilistic NHL players, used to say that if he was going to fight someone, they better be ready, because as he put it, "I don't have an 'OFF' switch. When I start swinging, bombs are dropping, so make sure you're up to it." Asa certainly didn't have an "off" switch. Neither does HF. And now, neither does Hak. And I suspect that, in our daily lives, most of us - when confronted in a certain situation - don't have an "off" switch.

What Hak DOES have is an exemplary record of achievement. Built up over years of flaccid opposition. He's especially lucky to have been in the game when we was. Had he been 10 years earlier, or five years later, he might never have reached the magic 30+ yushos.

[bettega]

I disagree with "flacid opposition".

When your are the better rickishi (or, in his case, "the best"), all the others seems week, but they are not, they are as good as the previous generation ou better. Hakuho is the greatest Yokozuna of all times, and the numbers soon will show that with chance to doubt.

[Treblemaker]

I disagree with "flacid opposition".

When your are the better rickishi (or, in his case, "the best"), all the others seems week, but they are not, they are as good as the previous generation ou better. Hakuho is the greatest Yokozuna of all times, and the numbers soon will show that with chance to doubt.

Um, ok, I won't disagree with you regarding Hak being the "best", because he was/is. BUT, the Ozeki group of Kaio, Osh, Chiyotairu and Kotomitsuli were beyond their expiry dates, and when Asa and the bunch of exiled rikishi (scandal) left, the result was definitely a watered-down group that was artificially promoted to higher levels, simply to fill in the gaps. And Hak ate those guys up. I'm just saying that, with a contemporary Yokozuna of equal quality, and a more effective group of Ozeki, Hak would not be sitting with all those yushos.

Just sayin'.

[Asashosakari]

The same can be said about every other yokozuna with lots of yusho. None of them had steady, strong competition throughout their full careers. Asashoryu might not have made it to 20 if he had started five years earlier, Takanohana might not have made it to 15 without the heya advantage, etc. etc.

Edit: By the way, the only top-level rikishi (other than Asashoryu) dumped by the various scandals were Kotomitsuki and maaaybe Wakanoho if we assume he'd have become a sanyaku regular. Surely you're not insinuating that Hakuho's yusho total somehow profited from the departure of the likes of Toyozakura and Kotokasuga.

Oops, beaten to that addendum by Kinta.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama]

Um, ok, I won't disagree with you regarding Hak being the "best", because he was/is. BUT, the Ozeki group of Kaio, Osh, Chiyotairu and Kotomitsuli were beyond their expiry dates, and when Asa and the bunch of exiled rikishi (scandal) left, the result was definitely a watered-down group that was artificially promoted to higher levels, simply to fill in the gaps. And Hak ate those guys up. I'm just saying that, with a contemporary Yokozuna of equal quality, and a more effective group of Ozeki, Hak would not be sitting with all those yushos.

I disagree with "flacid opposition".

No one of any real talent (except maybe Kotomitsuki, but that's another argument) was exiled- mostly Juryo mainstays and a few lower Maegashira mainstays, so that certainly was not the reason for the weak opposition.

[Asashosakari]

And in any case, at the time of his untimely departure Asashoryu was already 29 years old, had lost the last 7 regulation bouts to Hakuho (did win two playoffs in between, in fairness), and had achieved 13+ wins only 3 times in his last 11 basho. How many yusho would he possibly have taken away from Hakuho if he'd stayed around for a couple more injury-riddled years? My optimistic guess would be 3.

I think the most likely scenario is that Asashoryu would have called it quits sometime in 2010 even without the night club brawl that ended his career. He was never going to stick around as a Harumafuji-style 11-win yokozuna with the occasional yusho highlight.

The best thing that happened to his career was that quick exit because it makes people forget/ignore that he was already on the downslide anyway.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Asashosakari

[I am the Yokozuna]

I go by pure conjecture, but I believe some part of the Asashoryu's decision to quit was the possibility that he got tired of it and saw an opportunity to get into other adventures. He was not to stay in the sumo federation upon his retirement; Mongolia started to open to foreign investment into the mineral industry and offered opportunities for skillful businessmen in various ventures to develop the economy of the country; his family members pursued political careers; he needed to sort out his marriage and etc. I just think he wanted to transfer his huge sporting popularity into economical and political power. I remember watching a documentary made about him where he talked about the possibility of becoming a president. At first, when asked the question, his eyes glowed sharply and intensely as in his severest eye-stare contests in his sumo career but then he broke that tension with a joke into a laughter. So, quite possibly, he might be after a political career in a decade or so.

While I did not like some of his behavior on and outside the dohyo, he has been one of the greatest fighters the sport has seen and his absence contributed greatly, in my mind, to some of the "dullness" or "predictability" of the bashos right after his retirement.

I forgot that he got the biggest payout check, retirement money, upon hi, leaving the some federation, "with some dignity left for all parties", so that could have been a factor as well....

Edited November 17, 2014 by I am the Yokozuna

[Asameshimae]

If this was mentioned sorry, but I noticed that today, before 9th day makuuchi bouts, Kyokutenho has even upped his overall career wins and is right now at 902 wins and 902 losses. I have noticed before that he was behind in this count. His 7-1 record so far has certainly help to balance that out. He is still behind in makuuchi wins and losses at 672-731, but you can't have everything.

Now I just hope I haven't jinxed him.

[Morty]

Hakuho dealt brilliantly with Ichinojo today. Let him commit, waited for him to lean in then he just dropped the shoulder out of the way and pulled on the belt and that was all she wrote. Ichinojo is clearly a special talent but he clearly has a lot to learn before he gets to the level of the master. Genius

[Akinomaki]

There is that story of Wakamisho (now Terunofuji) kind of having betrayed Hakuho by going to Harumafuji's heya.

Is that really what you got from what I wrote?

Terunofuji didn't choose to go to Isegahama. He would have liked to go to Miyagino as Hakuho is the one who got him into ozumo. The outside expectation was that all Magaki beya rikishi would be taken into Otake beya as they were training together almost daily by that stage, but actual discussions were with Miyagino beya. Something happened during those negotiations and they ended up in Isegahama. I'm not going to disclose that something but it was nothing to do with the Terunofuji / Hakuho relationship which was and remains strong and close.

Indeed, because you didn't then disclose the story and didn't give the information like now, it looked to me like some break in their relationship.

I'm glad that this is not the case.

[Andreas21]

with a contemporary Yokozuna of equal quality... Hak would not be sitting with all those yushos.

To the opposite, Hakuho's career in his early 20s was complicated by the activity of a premier dai-yokozuna, arguably one the most skillful ever. At that time, of better quality, only hampered by injury and inconsistency. EIGHT times Hakuho had the Jun-Yusho when Asashoryu won the Yusho. Without this tough opposition he might stand at 39 Yusho already.

[dingo]

with a contemporary Yokozuna of equal quality... Hak would not be sitting with all those yushos.

To the opposite, Hakuho's career in his early 20s was complicated by the activity of a premier dai-yokozuna, arguably one the most skillful ever. At that time, of better quality, only hampered by injury and inconsistency. EIGHT times Hakuho had the Jun-Yusho when Asashoryu won the Yusho. Without this tough opposition he might stand at 39 Yusho already.

That is entirely correct, but I think what Treblemaker wants to say is that after Asashoryu retired, there was no-one left to provide challenge or competition to Hakuho's reign.

[Doitsuyama]

Hakuho clinched the title of having most wins in the calendar year 2014 as he is leading Kakuryu 75-68 with six days to go. It's the eighth consecutive year going to him, of course the all-time record for consecutive years, and he also is sole leader in years won with 8 ahead of Kitanoumi (7), Taiho (6) and Takanohana and Asashoryu (5 each).

Here is the list of all 35 times (in all 58 years of the six-basho era) a rikishi got 74 or more wins in a calendar year, all 8 Hakuho-years are included.

[Kintamayama]

Miyagino Oyakata was summoned by Deputy Asahiyama for a talk at the Judging Department today and was cautioned.

Miyagino:"Yesterday, I saw him and told him that that thing at the end was unacceptable. He answered that he understood.."

Asahiyama: "Will you be cautioning him again after our talk?"

Miyagino: "Yes I will."

No, I did not make this up. But it gave me a few ideas for a book..