Aki 2014 Basho Comments

[rzombie1988]

Ichinojo:

(Going after ) Second only yusho as a Makuuchi debut after 1914((!). Not even sure if that counts/is comparable.

Kind of iffy on this one. Ryogoku didn't beat any non-Maegashira wrestlers nor did he fight anyone who had a shot of winning. He also only had 10 matches, whereas Ich may have 16 matches if he and Hak both win and lose one. Ryogoku also wasn't really a rookie, as he had been a sumo for multiple years prior.

Edited September 26, 2014 by rzombie1988

[yorikiried by fate]

While I was not totally displeased with Ij's henka against Kisenosato (This is what you want, this is what you get.) I'm a bit cautious about praising his clever balls just yet. I mean, it's a Yokozuna FFS, and rank, rank-difference, respect, the whole package is somewhat integral to sumo. So yes, it was technically legal, yes, it was successful from the simple binary point of view, and yes, it took a lot of bravado to pull it off. BUT, it was disrespectful to the rank, it was not Ij's part to maybe pay back for Kakuryu's own shortcomings, and it definitely gives his impressive impact a slight dent.

Then again, there will be plenty of opportunities to retaliate, I guess, as anything else than Ozekihood+ for Ij would seem a below par achievement. What impresses me most is his unimpressedness.

Edited September 26, 2014 by yorikiried by fate

[Asabiru]

If any yokozuna deserves to be on the receiving end of a henka it's Kakuryu. Didn't he pull at least one during his yusho run?

I'm not a fan of henka, but it's Kakuryu's fault for falling for it.

[dingo]

we'd be seeing nothing than an endless henka-thon all the way from maezumo to makuuchi.

Until they'd finally realize you can't just blindly leap forward every time hoping that your opponent is going to be there.

Well yes, but at best we'd see very cautious tachiais, nothing like the satisfying clash of two rikishis you see now -- instead, at best two guys cautiously bumping into eachother. It would be very different from the sumo we see and enjoy now. That's why I don't really buy into the "it was the rikishi's own fault" argument, and Kakuryu didn't even perform a bellyflop, so it's not like he charged blindly into Ichinojo, it's just that if someone moves out of your way and presses on your back with 200 kg weight, it's hard to stay on your feet.

[Fukurou]

If any yokozuna deserves to be on the receiving end of a henka it's Kakuryu. Didn't he pull at least one during his yusho run?

I'm not a fan of henka, but it's Kakuryu's fault for falling for it.

Then you shouldn't have any problem with it if/when someone tries one on Hakuho.

[rzombie1988]

If any yokozuna deserves to be on the receiving end of a henka it's Kakuryu. Didn't he pull at least one during his yusho run?

I'm not a fan of henka, but it's Kakuryu's fault for falling for it.

Then you shouldn't have any problem with it if/when someone tries one on Hakuho.

I can't see it working. Hakuho starts back very far, is usually the second to touch at the start and also pulls his body a bit to the side. He'd be one of the last people I'd want to try it on for that alone.

[Andreas21]

ybf will be happy to get another club member - oh, he is on it already...

I rarely think that way. Not enough for the club, I'm afraid.

what I saw is that Hakuho *tried* to get the right hand inside but couldn't get quite through since Goeido already established firm grips with tight contact and would have been happy to move Hakuho out with both hands inside without ability to throw. The best he could do is quickly stopping him, but had to get an outside grip for that.

Hmm, I see your point. In fact, the moment when I saw the bout and they established a migi yotsu, I was really looking forward to one of those tremendously beautiful throws that Hakuho does. I was very disappointed.

I remember other Goeido-Hakuho bouts in which Goeido had to raise a firestorm to win against an obviously unwilling Hakuho. Not this time. He was almost permissive as ... Goeido often enough. Very unusual. Maybe he was just caught off-guard in a way I don't recognize. Maybe he was just sleepy.

[Monnodo]

What would I do? I'd recall that prior to my first Makuuchi basho, both Kakuryu and Hakuho visited me for keiko. And being thankful for their help in preparing me for my entrance into the big time, I'd like to think I'd show a little more respect and engage in a straight up bout.

Or maybe he felt they just did that to demoralize him (you have to remember that he started as the highest guy at Minato-Beya, he might be unused to getting his ass kicked) and planned his "revenge". Who knows what happens behind the courtains.

[rzombie1988]

Goeido's beat Hakuho the last 3 times he's faced him, so take it for what you will either way. If you think Hak's blowing chances at tournaments for him, there you go. If you think Goeido is just figuring Hakuho out, boom.

[Fukurou]

If any yokozuna deserves to be on the receiving end of a henka it's Kakuryu. Didn't he pull at least one during his yusho run?

I'm not a fan of henka, but it's Kakuryu's fault for falling for it.

Then you shouldn't have any problem with it if/when someone tries one on Hakuho.

I can't see it working. Hakuho starts back very far, is usually the second to touch at the start and also pulls his body a bit to the side. He'd be one of the last people I'd want to try it on for that alone.

My comment wasn't about if a henka would work or not. Hakuho's been warned, he shouldn't be caught out (though the same was said for Kakuryu). Asabiru's comment was that Kakuryu was deserving to be on the receiving end of a henka because he'd pulled at least one during his yusho run. I was wondering if the same sentiment applied if "Kakuryu" was replaced with "Hakuho". This is because not only has Hakuho henka-ed his opponents before (and some great henkas at that), but he perhaps most famously (infamously?) did one to Asashoryu during the Makuuchi kettei-sen at Haru 2007, which began Hakuho's yokozuna run.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Fukurou

[evilwaldo]

Using a henka against a Yokozuna in your first top level tournament and when you are in contention for the title is poor form. No ways around it.

If we are going to criticize Oosunaarashi for using the forearm then the henka is open to criticism as well.

[Asashosakari]

I feel breaking up Kotoshogiku-Kisenosato would be a bad idea, just *because* it would be a meaningless bout for both KK ozeki.

But if you're Kotoshogiku, wouldn't you take a bit of pride in the fact that you could become the only ozeki to beat Ichinojo this basho? ;-) Let's not forget he was happy enough to beat Kisenosato twice on senshuraku (being 10-4 and 8-6 himself) while Kise was putting together that sort-of-tsuna run last year. Edited September 26, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Shikona]

I never mind a henka, since I am waiting for the day when rikshi will figure out how to charge forward while keeping their feet under them, after which henka will fail. I believe that Hakuho does this, so I would very much like to see a henka tried against him. But it's probably too much to expect Ichinojo to try the same thing three out of four days. Still, his henka is in another class, which is why it worked against Kakuryu who doesn't really blast off like a Kotoshogiku, who's sure to face-plant if you'll just get out of the way. This is a power henka, using that reach to get a strong push on the back.

Yes, henka is unsatisfying because even though the typical bout is over in 5-6 seconds, we miss it when it's over in one. Still, I want it to be defeated, not avoided by some gentleman's agreement that real sumo requires head-banging. My own pet peeve is face-slapping, but it's legal, so I'm going to cheer for rikshi who manage to dodge a blow and take advantage of the goober who throws himself off-balance, not complain about the technique.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Shikona

[Shikona]

The Goeido-Hakuho match was particularly interesting because Hakuho has won so many matches in the same way--establish an inside-outside grip, wait for the opponent to release and try to move the second hand inside, then push him out of the ring. There wasn't a pause this time, but otherwise about the same action.

As I recall, someone in another forum had worked out years ago that you could tell when Hakuho was throwing a bout because of the way he'd position his hands on the grip or raise one pinkie--I don't remember exactly, but it was his way of winking at those in the know. Also, his preferred losing technique was to pretend to lose balance and touch down with one hand--losing, but neither getting thrown nor pushed out of the ring. So either Goeido won this one, or Hakuho's gone in for some acting lessons (and not from Baruto).

[ALAKTORN]

After seeing Ichinojo's matta, it seemed pretty clear to me that he was going to henka, because that's exactly the same thing that he did against Kisenosato. The false start didn't have any possible reason other than to make the opponent think he was too eager to get out of the blocks; he did it well before anyone could ever have been expected to think that his opponent was ready, which needed to be the case because otherwise the opposing rikishi might actually decide to start upon seeing you start. Kakuryu should really be ashamed for falling for the same trick that had already been used once in the the tournament by the same rikishi, especially since he's prone to use the technique himself on various occasions. This one seemed far too telegraphed for me given what he did against Kisenosato, and I assumed Kakuryu would have been ready for it.

As I watched Ichinojo go early I thought to myself "he's going to henka like he did with Kise" and he did. If I can work it out Kak should have seen it coming a mile away

Same thought here. I’ve ran out of likes.

Despicable display from Ichinojō, honestly. One henka was fine, but two? It’s clear he doesn’t give a shit and just wants to win. All of his records are honestly meaningless if you look at the kimarite. At least he seems smart. Curious to see how he’ll handle Hakuhō… I’d expect Hakuhō to expect a henka, so Ichinojō will actually go all-out at the tachiai. But I still think Hakuhō will win. Even if Ichinojō tries to henka, I really doubt Hakuhō will fall for it, so Ichinojō’s best bet is trying to fight him in a proper sumō bout, but I think he’ll lose it.

About the Hakuhō–Gōeidō bout… I found Hakuhō’s behaviour slightly weird, but I wouldn’t call it yaochō or anything. I was surprised at Hakuhō being able to land on his feet outside of the dohyō, I thought he was gonna fall on his back lol.

Edited September 26, 2014 by ALAKTORN

[Asabiru]

If any yokozuna deserves to be on the receiving end of a henka it's Kakuryu. Didn't he pull at least one during his yusho run?

I'm not a fan of henka, but it's Kakuryu's fault for falling for it.

Then you shouldn't have any problem with it if/when someone tries one on Hakuho.

I wouldn't. In fact I was surprised nobody tried it during his winning streak.

Using a henka against a Yokozuna in your first top level tournament and when you are in contention for the title is poor form. No ways around it.

If we are going to criticize Oosunaarashi for using the forearm then the henka is open to criticism as well.

Oosunaarashi's and Hakuho's forearm blasts to the chin are dangerous and career threatening. I don't think that's a fair comparison.

[wanderer]

I don't see anything that suggests Hakuho was not up to the game in the bout with Goeido.

Careful look at the slow-mo shows that Goeido going to Hakuho's front belt right from the beginning, while also going for right inside. This move is possible only if you hunker down and compact your body. As a result he ended up deep inside Hakuho's. Next thing Goeido did was remarkable and what sealed the victory. He sank to Hakuho so tight that there was no room for Hakuho to even wiggle. From here, pushing Hakuho is as easy as butsugari session.

Being tall person, Hakuho has two weak points and his opponents seem to exploit that from time to time if he allows them.

1. Hakuho is vulnerable if someone shorter gets inside him, raising his chest with a head just like Goeido today. If Hakuho was shorter, he would have more leverage to counter his opponent with his head.

2. During a strong forward push, Hakuho bends more than what would shorter person need, bringing his centre of mass almost on top of his opponents footprint. This opens an opportunity for his opponents to exploit it in evasive moves combined with some beltless throwing. Osunaarashi almost managed succeeding one this basho.

Brilliant tactic with superb execution today from Goeido.

Edited September 26, 2014 by wanderer

[ALAKTORN]

Heres a vid of the Hakuhō bout from the other side:

Also, his commentary is funny in the Ichinojō bout :P

Edited September 26, 2014 by ALAKTORN

[yorikiried by fate]

I have no doubt that Hakuho won't care about henka or not. I wouldn't say he's henka-proof (we wouldn't know as YOKOZUNA DON'T GET HENKA'ED) but we all know about his rather conservative momentum at tachi-ai, which is based more on absorption than progression.

Anyhow, I expect that Hakuho will do his best to use the bout preparation to twist on Ij's nerves, then he will throw him (I'd say uwatenage) or maybe resort to a situation dependent hatakikomi. YHIHF

I mean Ichinojo is hot, but we are still talking about 30-lifetime-supplies-of-assorted-goods-Hakuho FFS.

(FWIW I notice that I make excessive use of them slick acronyms recently. I apologize if that insults your reading preferences BTW. EOM.)

[Senkoho]

Anyhow, I expect that Hakuho will do his best to use the bout preparation to twist on Ij's nerves, then he will throw him (I'd say uwatenage) or maybe resort to a situation dependent hatakikomi. YHIHF

It doesn't seem as if Ichinojo was able to bend down far enough to be susceptible to hatakikomi ;-)

(edit: I'm joking of course, my point is that I don't think we've ever seen him in that kind of position)

Edited September 26, 2014 by Senkoho

[Kintamayama]

No theories posted yet that Ichinojo must've been genetically engineering by the Kyokai to stop Hakuho from breaking Taiho's record? Colour me disappointed.

Wrong forum.

[yorikiried by fate]

Anyhow, I expect that Hakuho will do his best to use the bout preparation to twist on Ij's nerves, then he will throw him (I'd say uwatenage) or maybe resort to a situation dependent hatakikomi. YHIHF

It doesn't seem as if Ichinojo was able to bend down far enough to be susceptible to hatakikomi ;-)

(edit: I'm joking of course, my point is that I don't think we've ever seen him in that kind of position)

Ah, you know what I mean. Throw doesn't compute, circular movements, balances all over the place, hand on head, yadida...

[Kintamayama]

The henka? Nobody cares except us foreign fans. Especially in this case, as in most cases. The NHK commentators were tsking daily about Kakuryuu's pulling ("Oh, he pulled again.".) much louder and with much snickering, compared to Ichinojou's itchy no-jokes.

Ichinojou at this moment is a sumo baby-every burp and fart is cute and lovable. At some point he'll have to grow up because an adult doing it is annoying.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Kintamayama

[yorikiried by fate]

No theories posted yet that Ichinojo must've been genetically engineering by the Kyokai to stop Hakuho from breaking Taiho's record? Colour me disappointed.

Wrong forum.

I'll provide one: He comes from Outer Space!!! In fact, he hails from a colony of Space-Mongols who live somewhere behind Pluto and was brought to Earth by a secret space program initiated by none other than Chiyonofuji (in co-operation with Richard Branson for reasons yet to be disclosed). Taiho, on the other hand and contrary to popular belief, isn't dead but transcended to an intra-dimensional happy-plane (as in "flat thing" not "bus in the sky"), where he grows flourescent rice that tastes better than Hakuho's, so he's fine.

Edited September 26, 2014 by yorikiried by fate

[Kintamayama]

No theories posted yet that Ichinojo must've been genetically engineering by the Kyokai to stop Hakuho from breaking Taiho's record? Colour me disappointed.

Wrong forum.

I'll provide one: He comes from Outer Space!!! In fact, he hails from a colony of Space-Mongols who live somewhere behind Pluto and was brought to Earth by a secret space program initiated by none other than Chiyonofuji (in co-operation with Richard Branson for reasons yet to be disclosed). Taiho, on the other hand and contrary to popular belief, isn't dead but transcended to an intra-dimensional happy-plane (as in "flat thing" not "bus in the sky"), where he grows flourescent rice that tastes better than Hakuho's, so he's fine.

You forgot the part where Chiyonofuji loses to Ichinojou on purpose for some latex solar beef.