Greatest Ozeki?

[Shiro]

Who do you think is the greatest Ozeki of all time?

[Jejima]

An Ozeki who didn't make Yokozuna?

Then Raiden http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=3143 hands down.

In the modern era, I'd vote for Kaio http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=7

[aderechelsea]

my vote goes to Takanohana.

this video is not proof but it helped me decide the first time i watched it.

[Shiro]

Yeah who didn't make Yokozuna. Should have specified.

[Asojima]

my vote goes to Takanohana.

this video is not proof but it helped me decide the first time i watched it.

Just 1 of numerous unforgettable battles between these two. Takanohana I is the most powerful candidate that I am familiar with.

[Benevolance]

No detailed banzuke results for specific tournaments or video links for Raiden? Colour me disappointed.

[Asojima]

Raiden fought about 16 matches a YEAR against opponents of unknown athletic ability in an era when sumo was essentially an entertainment vehicle.

[yorikiried by fate]

I can't find any of Raiden's sumo bouts on youtube, but

seems to be from his venture into MMA and looks quite OKish.

Seriously though, alltime greatest wankfests are most often pointless.

[Shiro]

Pretty sure the Raiden they are all referring to fought in the early 1800s. Record of 200 some wins and only 8 losses as an Ozeki. You won't find a YouTube video for him.

[Shiro]

1790-1811 to be exact.

[yorikiried by fate]

(Taking a photo...)

[Shiro]

For me I think it's hard not to say Kaio. I mean 1,047 career wins and the fact that he maintained the rank for so long even at the end he was rarely if ever in jeapordy of being demoted, always seeming to get that 8 wins he needed. He was just a class act and I'm glad I was able to watch him. If sumo had a hall of fame he'd be in it.

[Swami]

But surely had Kaio competed in an era where the competition was stronger, there's no way he would have lasted as long. Or at least he would probably have been demoted.

Swami

[Asashosakari]

But surely had Kaio competed in an era where the competition was stronger, there's no way he would have lasted as long. Or at least he would probably have been demoted.

In my opinion, most periods in history weren't any more competitive than the one during which Kaio had his decline phase. The early 2000s might have been a bit soft, but Kaio was still performing as a strong(ish) ozeki at that time.

In any case, Kaio did compete during one of the few really competitive periods, the mid to late 1990s - and it quite possibly stopped him (and several others) from becoming ozeki much earlier and winning more yusho than he would have against more average competition. Holding the circumstances of his decline phase against him without acknowledging that facet makes any assessment more skewed than warranted.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Asashosakari

[botev1921]

Here is a video of Raiden ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9wOHJa-GgI

Now seriously, I don't think you can compare 19th century Ozeki with modern day Ozeki as nobody really knows how great the first were. To me the best Ozeki will always be Chiyotaikai - a guy who stood strong against some of the biggest Yokozuna!

[Shiro]

Kaio was 34-20 against Chiyotaikai so I've gotta go with Kaio. :) Also Kaio had five yusho compared to chiyotaikais three. But they were both fierce competitors, no doubt of that.

[Swami]

But surely had Kaio competed in an era where the competition was stronger, there's no way he would have lasted as long. Or at least he would probably have been demoted.

In my opinion, most periods in history weren't any more competitive than the one during which Kaio had his decline phase. The early 2000s might have been a bit soft, but Kaio was still performing as a strong(ish) ozeki at that time.

In any case, Kaio did compete during one of the few really competitive periods, the mid to late 1990s - and it quite possibly stopped him (and several others) from becoming ozeki much earlier and winning more yusho than he would have against more average competition. Holding the circumstances of his decline phase against him without acknowledging that facet makes any assessment more skewed than warranted.

Absolutely, in many ways he deserved to be promoted and was unlucky in many ways he didn't get promoted earlier. But he hung on far too long. Longevity is one thing, but I don't think he would have survived at ozeki until 38 in the 80s or 90s.

Swami

[Treblemaker]

Add my vote for Kaio. Consistent almost right to the end, still a threat up to the last few bashos.... There may have been flashier Ozeki, but longevity and consistency equal greatness, even if he didn't get into the Yokozuna rank.

But... if you're counting Ozeki who went on to become Yoks, then you're talking about a whole different animal.

[Jesinofuji]

Who do you think is the greatest Ozeki of all time?

Asashoryu was...

Oh wait, you mean the greatest Ozeki who was never promoted to Yokozuna. I have to agree with the above posters, Raiden was, but if the rank Yokozuna had existed in his era, he surely would have been promoted. In the modern era, Kaio hands down!

[Tsubame]

Who do you think is the greatest Ozeki of all time?

Asashoryu was...

hm... he only fought three bashos as ozeki. Not much time to impress... but on the other hand you can clearly state without any doubts that he had won 2/3 of all his ozeki-bashos :P

[Washuyama]

Futabayama. Two basho as Ozeki, Zero losses.

or

Split between Kaio and Takanohana I.

[Benevolance]

Watching the Art of Sumo videos that Araibira posted, I was surprised to see that Kaio could actually fight. I'd just assumed he was a Kotooshu-type character. But I only ever watched Kaio the last three or four years of his career when he'd hit 8 wins in a tournament and stop trying, so my view on him is a bit coloured.

[Shiro]

Oh Kaio was a warrior no doubt. 5 Yusho and his record isn't just about longevity.

[Blue_Wolf]

Add all Mongolian's vote for Kaio as well. He was truly awesome.

[Jejima]

Who do you think is the greatest Ozeki of all time?

Asashoryu was...

Oh wait, you mean the greatest Ozeki who was never promoted to Yokozuna. I have to agree with the above posters, Raiden was, but if the rank Yokozuna had existed in his era, he surely would have been promoted. In the modern era, Kaio hands down!

'Yokozuna' did exist at the time of Raiden, but was a 'licence / certificate' given to some Ozekis. Raiden was never given one. (Allegedly something to do with his patron not being important enough.)

Disclaimer: The above is taken from memory, so may have errors.