Henka

[Yoavoshimaru]

But we don't know yet why exactly Hakuho did pull the henka

Of course we do, it's blindingly obvious: Hakuho saw Hoku run over people with a blistering tachi-ai for 13 days, including people who are stronger and more experienced than Hakuho. So he knew he had to rely on quickness and avoid that full-on charge. To do anything else would have been stupid. It's solely Hoku's fault for losing.

[Cavewoman]

Hakuho did absolutely nothing wrong, and the afternoon was not disappointing (Well, maybe not so exciting as Fukinoyama`s other favourite sport "Curling" :-)).

Hakuho won me as a fan and I am looking forward to his first fight with Asashoryu.

GO HAKUHO!!!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS ASASHORYU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Blinking...)

[MongolPower]

I would really hate to think this is true and instead that Hakuho did not think of Mongolian versus Japanese as this would seem to hint of racism at worst and nationalism at best. While I am no expert, I do not think either of these two "isms" are supposed to be a part of Sumo. If true that it is accepted that countrymen of different heyas should be considered teammates with a goal of winning to aid their fellows, the opposite would be logical too with countrymen dumping a match with a countryman to aid him.

Never really thought this out to the point of the quoted post, but it is a valid concern. Meaning no ill respect to any of the current rikishi, but it must be kept in mind. I don't recall any match between Ake-Konishiki/Ake-Moose that would reek of Yaocho, and I am NOT saying that the current topic does, but I DO agree that it should be guarded against at all costs.

I don't believe there was any racism or nationalism in this basho. Japanese and Mongolian are both Asians. Most people from other race (Caucasians and Africans) could not distinguish between an average Japanese from an average Mongolian. Likewise I could not distinguish between caucasians from France, Germany or Russia as I'm an Asian. It is something called racial blindness or something like that.

Nationalism could be present only between same nationals. An example would between two Mongolians. If someday Asa and Hakuho were to play off on the final day and Asa decides to give Hakuho some slack and let him win that would be nationalism.

Edited May 26, 2004 by MongolPower

[BuBa]

I don't believe there was any racism or nationalism in this basho. Japanese and Mongolian are both Asians. Most people from other race (Caucasians and Africans) could not distinguish between an average Japanese from an average Mongolian. Likewise I could not distinguish between caucasians from France, Germany or Russia as I'm an Asian. It is something called racial blindness or something like that. Nationalism could be present only between same nationals. An example would between two Mongolians. If someday Asa and Hakuho were to play off on the final day and Asa decides to give Hakuho some slack and let him win that would be nationalism.

I hope you joking. (Holiday feeling...)

As to Mikiro's post, didn't our beloved Takanonami say in his interview that he was fighting against foregn rikishis more determined? What about oyakatas who are blaming japanese rikishis not having enough national pride? How much rasist would you consider them?

On my part I don't blame neather of them for saying that. They say what they think and this is always good. As sacred the dohyo is, as long as there are foreing competitors there will be, just as in any other sport, distinction between "us" and "them". I wouldn't call it rasism or nationalism. If it were so every fan who cheers for his country's team would be a nationalist and every member of the team would be a nationalist. Now are we?

BTW of course Hakuho knew whom he will be doing favor by defeating Hoku. Such a rasist.

Edited May 26, 2004 by BuBa

[hoshidango]

I would really hate to think this is true and instead that Hakuho did not think of Mongolian versus Japanese as this would seem to hint of racism at worst...

Yeah so far media spin is not too bad on this..yet. But I am with you.

[paolo]

Speaking about henka in general terms: should henka at the tachi-ai be banned ? The question comes to my mind for the following reasons:

1. Henka is legal now. No doubt about this.

2. To see a Henka at the tachi-ai is funny once in a while, but it looks somewhat stranger to sumo spirit, that is to tackle and not to escape at the tachi-ai. Henka is not a technique but an attitude or even a behaviour.

3. We could watch in a day 20 bouts all won by yorikiri or 20 bouts all won by oshidashi; we might consider it somewhat boring, but it could happen, and it would be still sumo. But could we stand 20 bouts all won by henka+hatakikomi ? Would we consider to have spent our money well ?

So we could be led to think that henka at the tachi-ai is not appropriate in sumo, neither from a technical point of view nor from a spectacular one....

[Naganoyama]

But could we stand 20 bouts all won by henka+hatakikomi ? Would we consider to have spent our money well ?

So we could be led to think that henka at the tachi-ai is not appropriate in sumo, neither from a technical point of view nor from a spectacular one....

You seem to be saying it is a question of degree, i.e. if we were to see 20 henka in 20 bouts this would be inappropriate.

But what about 2 henka in 20 bouts? Then it seems much more acceptable, particularly if the henka were by junior guys, not ozeki or yokozuna.

[bennyloh]

For what it is worth, the Hakuho interviewer asked when he planned the Henka, and Hakuho answered that he decided to do it at the last moment.

All this definition about what constitutes Henka is rather esoteric.  My definition of a henka is when a person shifts to the side at the tachi-ai without meeting the charge with one's body (i.e, no hand contact or only hand contact is made).

I fully agree, it was not only a plain sideway movement instantly, there were other hands movement before this. Hakuho speaking to reporters about this himswelf confirm tnis. I remember When Hoku charged, mentally prepared for one whose physique is different from the other rikishis that he has beaten using the same throw.(Hakuho has a high waist like himself and a smaller chest area) Hoku pushes the arms of Hakuho who then lifts his right and presses Hoku's left hand downwards, lifts his left hand and presses Hoku's right hand sideway and downwards towards Hoku's left then only the sidestepping and pulling down Hoku's back.

I appreciate and applaud any counter-throws. It shows how skillful a rikishi is.

Edited May 27, 2004 by bennyloh

[Manekineko]

It seems henka causes such great stir/outrage only when yusho winner is decided by it, whether directly or indirectly. I see no problem with henka, I don't fear that it will ever become a prevalent tactic - it has too many inherent weaknesses for that, so i don't get excited much by that issue any more. And as I pay no money for the sumo I watch, I don't percieve it as an assault on my pocket. (Clapping wildly...)

Not all tournaments can end spectacularly. Even without henka, there may be other highly dissapointing ways for yusho-candidate to drop out of the running...

[Hashira]

wow,　this is my first chance　to use a computer since i started this topic. i was expecting to see a few responses, but nothing like this. I must say that I agree quite closely with Qttp, and feel no need to restate all the points again.

ANR's point regarding the fact that I am living in Tochigi now is valid, as obviously each one of us sees events with our own perspectives. those who are asashoryu fans are more likely to view this incident as not henka, and defend hakuho, because it helped shoryu get a third straight yusho.

anyway, we will see what the future holds. If Riki can continue doing sumo as he did this basho, he should have another chance at a yusho, and Hakuho-Hokutoriki could very well become a huge rivalry.

Hakuho did absolutely nothing wrong, and the afternoon was not disappointing (Well, maybe not so exciting as Fukinoyama`s other favourite sport "Curling" ).

Cavewoman, I'm assuming that you're being sarcastic here,　and mocking curling.

It doesn't really bother me, I've heard it all before, but there are millions of people who play the game, so there must be something good about it.

[Tokimori]

I like Curling!

[aderechelsea]

i watch curling on eurosport whenever it is on ......

it's quite interesting when you understand the rules and dig in the strategy...

[Guest Onigashima]

I was cheering for Hokutoriki, as I think his success made this past basho more interesting. I really hope he keeps it up.

But I would have been furious had Hakuho not done his best to win. He spotted Riki's overcommitment to the tachiai and took advantage of it.

A rikishi that cannot avoid losing to henka is not a champion rikishi. I enjoy watching a good henka, and am certain that it will never take over the sport.

20 wins by strait ahead oshi-sumo would be deadly dull for me to watch. Kokkai is a great new talent, but I will always prefer to watch matches of rikishi such as Kaiho or Hayateumi, because of their wide variety of techniques. Asashoryu goes without saying, although I would rather cheer for the underdog.

I don't care why Hakuho wanted to win. I only ask that he try to win every time he steps on the dohyo. Any criticism of a rikishi trying extra hard to win is, in my opinion, misplaced. If it were Toki instead, slapping viciously at 'Riki's face, would there be angry voices screaming that he tried to win to help the Yokozuna? (Holiday feeling...)

[Manekineko]

Just to add one more vote for curling - tactic is intriguing, execution of stone gliding suspenful, and all the screaming to encourage the stone to move just that one extra cm exciting! Great sport! (Holiday feeling...)

BTW, Cavewoman has trollish tendencies, so don't take her too seriously. (Enjoying a beer...)

[Kashunowaka]

I was cheering for Hokutoriki, as I think his success made this past basho more interesting.  I really hope he keeps it up.

But I would have been furious had Hakuho not done his best to win.  He spotted Riki's overcommitment to the tachiai and took advantage of it. 

[...]

Good post.

[QttP]

I was cheering for Hokutoriki, as I think his success made this past basho more interesting.  I really hope he keeps it up.

Ditto.

But I would have been furious had Hakuho not done his best to win.  He spotted Riki's overcommitment to the tachiai and took advantage of it.

If henka is one's best, then he's really a poor rikishi. Certainly you'd expect better from Hakuho, who is already marked for greatness by many sumo fans.

A rikishi that cannot avoid losing to henka is not a champion rikishi.  I enjoy watching a good henka, and am certain that it will never take over the sport.

Almost everyone can lose to henka every now and then. Some rikishi, mostly aggresive pushers, such as Riki, Taikai, Tosa, are naturally more prone than others. I hate it when Taikai loses by henka, I like it when he manages to overcome henka, and I'm not particularly fond when he does one of his own (though in the past few years, he only does it on special occasions). Overall, I agree with you that henka will never dominate sumo, and on most occasions I really don't mind seeing one. But sometimes I see one and it just makes me want to vomit. This was one of these cases.

20 wins by strait ahead oshi-sumo would be deadly dull for me to watch.  Kokkai is a great new talent, but I will always prefer to watch matches of rikishi such as Kaiho or Hayateumi, because of their wide variety of techniques.  Asashoryu goes without saying, although I would rather cheer for the underdog.

I can dig you... However, even with straightforward oshi-sumo, there is room for variety and excitement. There's Buyuzan with his rather dull bulldozer-style pushing, and there's Chiyotaikai, whose lightning fast thrusts, great rhythm and speed (all of which seem to be lacking a bit lately) have bought me as a fan.

I don't care why Hakuho wanted to win.  I only ask that he try to win every time he steps on the dohyo.  Any criticism of a rikishi trying extra hard to win is, in my opinion, misplaced.  If it were Toki instead, slapping viciously at 'Riki's face, would there be angry voices screaming that he tried to win to help the Yokozuna?

Sumo is a fighting sport, where the goal is to win, yes. But what makes sumo special, different from, say, boxing, is that certain dignity and respect is expected from the wrestlers. It's a fact that henka and pulling (backwards) sumo are a bit (sometimes a lot) frowned upon by the elders and by most of the fans. The fact that it is especially causes criticism when a high ranked rikishi (yokozuna, ozeki) does it means that, in general, this technique is not considered something a truly great sumotori should use.

Vicious slapping? Powerful bodyslamming? Sure! After all, it's fighting, isn't it? Henka is not fighting. Henka is the tool of the desperate, the insecure or of the lazy.

And there are situations that are, to me at least, more complicated than "everyone should do everything to maximize the chances of getting the win". Certainly when it's senshuraku and you have nothing to gain and nothing to lose, and the guy across the dohyo has everything to gain or to lose, you feel different than during an ordinary bout on day 3.

You have several options. One of them - fight carelessly, be beaten easily. If anyone thinks that I was hoping to see that from Hakuho, he's wrong, even though I did want to see Riki win it. Another option is do what Hakuho did. I think I explained what exactly I didn't like in it. And then there's the simple option to get out there and just fight. Open, straight out battle. Just put out the best you can (notice the difference between "your best" and "the best you can do to win this particular matchup"), win - win, lose - lose.

You asked the above question about Toki. Do you really think that if Hakuho had come out and had fought, and had won, there would be anyone who would have criticized him even a tiny bit, for not just stepping aside and letting Riki claim his yusho? I really don't think so.

[Gusoyama]

If henka is one's best, then he's really a poor rikishi. Certainly you'd expect better from Hakuho, who is already marked for greatness by many sumo fans.

But, isn't the best tactic to see your opponent's weaknesses and exploit them? (I know you later said that there are situations that do not dictate this)

Sumo is a fighting sport, where the goal is to win, yes. But what makes sumo special, different from, say, boxing, is that certain dignity and respect is expected from the wrestlers.

This is a VERY important note. Other sports fans can moan and gnash their teeth about the zone defense in the NBA, or grinding running games in the NFL, or the horrible horrible trap in the NHL, or bunkering in football, but all those above tactics win games, and, while teams/games can be viewed as boring, there is almost never a mention of dignity or respect. Sumo is a very rare sport in that respect.

Henkas on senshuraku always leave a bad taste in my mouth, but I know its going to happen.

[Lucius Flavonius]

I have been observing this thread about Mongolian companionship in Ozumo. I know that Mongolian people have, so to say, bonds of kinship and origin.

I personally think that oyakatas are not so stupid. They obviously know this Mongolian feature. Oyakatas must be brainwashing Mongolian wrestlers to put personal score profit, or heya affiliations before the ethnic background.

For example, the match between Maenoyu and Tamawashi in the Jonidan division. One of them, Tamawashi, as I remember had a clean record of 6-0 and Maenoyu was 5-1. The torikumi collided them both, which resulted in Maenoyu's victory, thus making Tamawashi only 6-1 and destroying his chances of winning in Jonidan.

As you see, personal profit prevails.

Edited May 27, 2004 by Lucius Flavonius

[hoshidango]

I was cheering for Hokutoriki, as I think his success made this past basho more interesting.  I really hope he keeps it up.

But I would have been furious had Hakuho not done his best to win.  He spotted Riki's overcommitment to the tachiai and took advantage of it. 

A rikishi that cannot avoid losing to henka is not a champion rikishi.  I enjoy watching a good henka, and am certain that it will never take over the sport. 

I also like this comment Onigashima. Also ones from Manekineko(not about curling- I found it painfully boring unless there are some good lookers in the teams) & Otokonoyama.

May be I looked over again. But Kyokushuzan was not mentioned too many times in this topic? He is my man.

This is OFF TOPIC, but other nubie sumoforummers- weren't you shocked with the dropped traffic after the tournament? Perhaps I should cool down by visiting every other day or something intead of daily or even twice a day.

Edited May 27, 2004 by hoshidango

[Asashosakari]

For example, the match between Maenoyu and Tamawashi in the Jonidan division. One of them, Tamawashi, as I remember had a clean record of 6-0 and Maenoyu was 5-1. The torikumi collided them both, which resulted in Maenoyu's victory, thus making Tamawashi only 6-1 and destroying his chances of winning in Jonidan.

You appear to remember wrong. They were both 5-0 before their Day 12 bout.

[Kashunowaka]

For example, the match between Maenoyu and Tamawashi in the Jonidan division. One of them, Tamawashi, as I remember had a clean record of 6-0 and Maenoyu was 5-1. The torikumi collided them both, which resulted in Maenoyu's victory, thus making Tamawashi only 6-1 and destroying his chances of winning in Jonidan.

You appear to remember wrong. They were both 5-0 before their Day 12 bout.

And they were clearly brain-washed to make sure that either of them won.

As you see, it worked.

[Guest Onigashima]

"Do you really think that if Hakuho had come out and had fought, and had won, there would be anyone who would have criticized him even a tiny bit, for not just stepping aside and letting Riki claim his yusho? I really don't think so."

I certainly see your point here. But standing square to a bulldozer that defeated the Yokozuna and all sanyaku rikishi would be a bad idea for a young rikishi like Hakuho. It would be almost allowing himself to be defeated, as I see it.

"even with straightforward oshi-sumo, there is room for variety and excitement"

Absolutely. I would never want to generalize that oshi-sumo is boring, just that variety is the spice of life. ;-)

"Certainly when it's senshuraku and you have nothing to gain and nothing to lose, and the guy across the dohyo has everything to gain or to lose, you feel different than during an ordinary bout on day 3."

I disagree that Hakuho had nothing to gain or lose. The pressure on such a young rikishi must have been tremendous. Moreso for Hokutoriki, I'm sure, but this is where he failed. He got overanxious and thought he could bulldoze the immature Hakuho. That's what I mean by saying a champion wouldn't lose to Henka. A champion would be within himself on the final day, under pressure, so as not to make such a mistake.

I think the bulldozers of Sumo have to be held in check by something so only the best of them succeed. Yin and yang. :-P Fear of the occational henka makes for better sumo all around, imo.

I agree that a great battle for the final day is better than a win by henka, I just think Hakuho doesn't deserve the heavy criticism. Maybe just encouragement to fight more confidently next time. I also think the criticism for allegedly "winning for Asa" is not fair. I am certain Hakuho, when he gets the chance, will try just as hard to beat the Yokozuna.

Onigashima

p.s. I would love to try curling sometime. I bet it is harder than it looks.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Onigashima

[hoshidango]

By the way, I was reviewing the video of Asashoryu-Hokutoriki on 15th day and noticed Hokutoriki did henka. Anyone talked about this?

[Naganoyama]

By the way, I was reviewing the video of Asashoryu-Hokutoriki on 15th day and noticed Hokutoriki did henka. Anyone talked about this?

Perhaps he decided that trying to win the bout was more important than sumo style.

[Mark Buckton]

By the way, I was reviewing the video of Asashoryu-Hokutoriki on 15th day and noticed Hokutoriki did henka. Anyone talked about this?

Look again - it wasn't henka.

You are not alone though - too many sadly don't understand the real concept of the term or (and probably this) didn't watch carefully enough.

Think I said this right after the bout - Kinta-san said it too. Watch it a few times on as good a screen as is possible as it is easy to miss.