Henka

[Hashira]

Hakuho has lost me as a fan. His Sumo today was embarrassing, and there was no reason for him to do it. If he was in the yusho race, or had some other motivation, I coul understand it, but it seems like the only reason he did it was so Asashoryu could win the yusho. I think it's just horrible for Hoku to lose on the final day in such a situation. He had mentioned in the press that he had planned to go for henka against Iwakiyama, but then changed his mind, because he wouldn't really be happy to win like that. Hakuho should take a lesson from him.

p.s.- on a completely different subject, partly borrowed from another thread, I think Hoku did deserve this yusho, he was as dominant as the Yokozuna, and I think he had a more difficult schedule than did Shoryu. I just hope that he can continue to perform sumo such as he did this basho, and we will see a Hoku yusho sometime in the future

[Mark Buckton]

Hakuho's sumo today was not henka.

[Kintamayama]

Hakuho has lost me as a fan. His Sumo today was embarrassing, and there was no reason for him to do it.

He had every reason to do it. He wanted to win. And he did. He may have wanted to help out his compatriot..So? Some guys dedicate their wins to their sister's father's glass of tea. Point is-Hoku fell for it, knowing full well this possibility exists. In the end (the VERY end..) it's about winning. Hakuhou is not a Yokozuna. Neither is he Sanyaku. He's not even joijin, or mid-Maegashira. He's a newbie in Makuuchi. He can henka and shmenka all he likes. He won't lose any honor in anyone's eys (except maybe a few people who wanted Hoku to get the yusho) He got 12 wins in his first ever Makuuchi basho at the age of 19. He will beat Hoku countless more times., and probably will lose too.

Hoku could have beaten Asa in the playoffs. He didn't, because he is simply no match for him. So he beat him on day 6..what about the double matta mind games he so "unhonorably" played, throwing off the champ's rhythm and beating him? Didn't see many complaints about that totally unsportsmanlike attitude, AFAICR..

And rightly so, because in the end, the very END, it's about winning.

[Hashira]

I think it's henka. and the tv announcers called it henka (japanese announcers). and most people seem to think it was henka. He went sideways, not forward. he didnt give hoku a chance to fight

[Golynohana]

I don't understand it. What is wrong in doing henka??? Is it a forbidden technique???

From what you are saying I assume that doing henka = winning a bout. He could also have lost this bout trying to do henka (by oshidashi for example).

In my opinion it's one of many (allowed) techniques and I don't see the reason why one should't do it, regardless if it is a yusho-deciding bout or just a regular basho bout.

Edited May 23, 2004 by Golynohana

[Kintamayama]

I think it's henka. and the tv announcers called it henka (japanese announcers). and most people seem to think it was henka. He went sideways, not forward. he didnt give hoku a chance to fight

So you think sumo is about "giving the other guy a chance to fight"? Is that why Touki always tries to knock his opponents out, like he did to Takamisakari today, giving him a bloody nose in the process? Is that why Hoku used extra-fierce strangleholds to beat his opponents this basho? Were they actually "giving the other guy a chance to fight"? "Give the other guy a chance to fight", and you lose. Henka, tsuppari, leg trips, it's all the same. Maybe when you reach sanyaku (maybe..)there is a question of "honor", but till then, DON'T GIVE THE OTHER GUY A CHANCE TO FIGHT!!

It's about winning.

[Mark Buckton]

. He went sideways, not forward. he didnt give hoku a chance to fight

Yes he did - after the tachi-ai and AFTER he stood still and took on Hokutoriki for a split second. AFTER

Also, the Japanese announcers were undecided and one more point that remains unwritten - Hoku is from Tochigi-ken. The same place you are sat now.

Images change when we are personally connected. I know it happens for me as much as it isn't 'cool' to.

[Yoavoshimaru]

Once again, up comes the concept of "deserving" the yusho. There's no such thing, it's decided solely on the dohyo using all the available legal styles. If Real wins the Champions' League playing bunker, I'm sure some people will complain, but it's part of the game (not a very realistic example, I know ;)). Kudos to Hoku, Hakuho, and Asashoryu as all three had an excellent basho.

[Mark Buckton]

Actually - just checked the NSK site to find they list it as hikiotoshi rather than hatakikomi - due to the lack of motion at time of execution on the part of 'Hakuho'

Wouldn't mind guessing the reporters who said otherwise will now fall into line or will find their 'kisha' club membership gone.

[Zuikakuyama]

There is nothing wrong with a henka coming from a low megashira. It would be different from an Ozeki or up, in my mind.

In the end Hokutoriki did not have the best record, so he didn't win the yusho.

[Otokonoyama]

HENKA is when you avoid the other guy's charge from the get-go...you jump outta the way from the very beginning. You have planned to run away...

When a rikishi meets another head-on, then shifts away, that is just a bit different. If I hadn't had some much sake in celebration of the 'Great One's' victory, I'd even tell you what they call a hit n' shift in Japanese... :-/

[Naganoyama]

it was a natural technique to use for Hakuho in the situation at hand.

I am surprised more of Riki's opponents didn't try it, especially given his speed 'off the blocks'.

I agree there is no shame in a lower-ranked rikishi not taking the full charge from a raging bull.

[Zuikakuyama]

For what it is worth, the Hakuho interviewer asked when he planned the Henka, and Hakuho answered that he decided to do it at the last moment.

All this definition about what constitutes Henka is rather esoteric. My definition of a henka is when a person shifts to the side at the tachi-ai without meeting the charge with one's body (i.e, no hand contact or only hand contact is made).

[QttP]

Hakuho's sumo today was not henka.

Hakuho's sumo today was not.

[QttP]

Hatakikomi or hikiotoshi are both common kimarites for what is henka. There are a few more sometimes used (Sokubiotoshi?).

Tsukiotoshi.

[Kashunowaka]

Ahh ... nothing like the old Henka Debate. (Jumping on the other guy...)

On Hakuho's sumo: I must say that I am very impressed with his 12-3 (second in a row!) but I can't say that I was very impressed with his sumo this basho. (Not counting the henka, of course. (In a state of confusion...)) But then, "not losing" is also a winning technique.

[Jesinofuji]

The henka debate again? Run for cover!!! (In a state of confusion...)

I'll add my 2 yen. Hakuho did commit henka. As I understand it even though there may have been some initial foreward motion by Hakuho, he did not meet Hoku head on with his body weight behind him. His body was moving up and to the left at the tachiai, not after the initial clash. His left foot had clearly moved left of the tape, and his shoulders swung clockwise right as Hoku hit him. Hakuho never even really crossed the tape.

I feel that the definition of henka that is popular among many SML and Forum members has become something quite different from what the original definition of henka is. You may find many gaijin sumo fans who do not think Hakuho committed henka, but among the Japanese media, active Rikishi, and Oyakata, I doubt you will find anyone who considers Hakuho's move to be even close to not being a henka.

I don't like henka, its unentertaining. Being kind of a cheap move, I do find it hard to say that the rikishi who henkas deserves the win. But the rikishi who falls for it certainly deserves the loss. Henka is something rikishi have to take into consideration. Henka can be beaten, and many rikishi don't fall for it. This match was a learning experience for Hoku. And Hakuho is a low ranked maegashira in his first basho. Its much more acceptable for him to do it that for an Ozeki or Yokozuna to. AFAIK he is not notorious for henka like Asanowaka, or Gojoro. Mongolian members please confirm this, but I expect that if Hakuho returns to Mongolia before next basho, he will get a hero's welcome. His action was like a self-sacrafice. He did something that could potentially damage his popularity so that Asashoryu had a chance for the yusho.

Did Hoku deserve the yusho? Well, a 13-2 record will often result in yusho, and is called by some high-ranking NSK members "yusho-equivalent". So Hoku can be thought of as a Rikishi capable of winning a yusho, but whose good basho came at the wrong time. You could also say that about Asasekiryu referring to last basho. I don't recall anyone saying that Sekiryu deserved the yusho last tourney. Hoku came in today with a one win lead, he needed to win one of two matches to take the yusho, and if he had won, no complaints about the level of competition could be made as Hoku did face all the top rankers. But he did lose 2 in a row, and for that he does not get, nor deserve the yusho.

[Phelix]

(In a state of confusion...) to Hakuho! He

[Phelix]

But the rikishi who falls for it certainly deserves the loss. Henka is something rikishi have to take into consideration. Henka can be beaten, and many rikishi don't fall for it.

That

[aderechelsea]

. He went sideways, not forward. he didnt give hoku a chance to fight

Yes he did - after the tachi-ai and AFTER he stood still and took on Hokutoriki for a split second. AFTER

Also, the Japanese announcers were undecided and one more point that remains unwritten - Hoku is from Tochigi-ken. The same place you are sat now.

Images change when we are personally connected. I know it happens for me as much as it isn't 'cool' to.

couldn't say that better myself.......

(i know you hate me for quoting other people's posts and not typing for myself...... (In a state of confusion...) )

[Lucius Flavonius]

And Hakuho is a low ranked maegashira in his first basho. Its much more acceptable for him to do it that for an Ozeki or Yokozuna to. AFAIK he is not notorious for henka like Asanowaka, or Gojoro. Mongolian members please confirm this, but I expect that if Hakuho returns to Mongolia before next basho, he will get a hero's welcome. His action was like a self-sacrafice. He did something that could potentially damage his popularity so that Asashoryu had a chance for the yusho.

Yes, Hakuho will get a mighty welcome in Mongolia. He is hailed as a new Mongolian yokozuna in the future, though I say he still must reach up to it.

As for the Hakuho-Hokutoriki bout, Dawaajargal had to win at any cost, as his compatriots observe, to let Asashoryu another chance.

[QttP]

Its much more acceptable for him to do it that for an Ozeki or Yokozuna to.

Edited May 24, 2004 by QttP

[hoshidango]

Henka can be beaten, and many rikishi don't fall for it.

Isn't this the point?

Obviously I missed Henka debate in the forum so I might be redundant here.

Like pulling or any other technique, you use it and sometimes win and sometimes you lose as a fair game(but I DON"T LIKE hatite).

If your henka brings the assured win, then you should henka all the time. Some classic pure oshizumo(Fujizakura/Kurohimeyama/Daiju etc, unlike Hokutoriki, who can do some belt techinques) guys were henkad by opponents every other bouts sometimes & lost more than several bouts in a basho but learned to look ahead with caution and beat some henka guys almost all the time.

[Zuikakuyama]

Henka bouts are not exciting. I don't think anyone like to see it.

It is not fun to watch a 150 kg guy charge ahead at the tachi-ai and fall flat on his face without the 2 rikishis making real physical contact (well maybe except for Miyabiyama :-P ).

There is always fan anticipation for a good physical bout (especially on yusho deciding bouts), and if a rikishi does a henka, it is over in 1 second. People pay money to see big men grapple or hit each other, not avoid each other.

That is why almost all fans hate it. It makes for uninteresting sumo. Oyakatas hate it too becuase it is not power sumo, and rikishi doesn't learn anything doing henka.

Remember, sumo is wresting. Not dancing.

Disclamer: The above does not apply to the stuff that Asasnowaka does regularly. That is a real hit-and-shift.

[Guest TSoLmoN]

Its much more acceptable for him to do it that for an Ozeki or Yokozuna to.