Kyushu Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

[Igordemorais]

I have to disagree with our esteemed members Kintamayama and Naganoyama. The crowd ( and I) much prefer to see a spirited fight over a gimmick victory. In any match it is when the rikishi clash, or stall, or recover from tough situations, that the crowd cheers loudest. In other words they ( as well as I) appreciate effort, fighting spirit, grit and guts, as well as technique.

You will also notice the almost absolute lack of applause after a henka. A few gasps at best. I feel the same way. But that's just me.

Can you imagine the embarassment of two fighters simultaneously attempting a henka-kikomi into thin air as the other fails to charge?

Good lord.

[Nabuko]

Depending who is using it and when he is applying. For example henka against yokozuka/ozeki from the rank&file is from my point of view entertaining. And also I do not like day of henkas of when somebody like Aran after getting KK almost always trying to spare himself by using it.

[Asashosakari]

The crowd ( and I) much prefer to see a spirited fight over a gimmick victory.

Ozumo doesn't get much more gimmicky than Takanoyama.

In any case, I've found that fans tend to start mellowing on henka as soon as they stop taking it personal every time it's done against one of their favourites...

Edited November 14, 2012 by Asashosakari

[yorikiried by fate]

Folks, please take note that Aran is on a 20 bout non-henka streak (the last being on Day 14 of Nagoya basho). This amazes me to no end.

[Igordemorais]

The crowd ( and I) much prefer to see a spirited fight over a gimmick victory.

Ozumo doesn't get much more gimmicky than Takanoyama.

[Naganoyama]

I also used to dislike henka strongly until one day I saw a henka which was so perfectly executed and with such exquisite timing that it was a thing of beauty. From that day I began to view henka as a legitimate technique with entertainment value.

It's still the case that I feel cheated if several consecutive bouts are decided by a henka and I don't like to see a rikishi who resorts to henka more than just occasionally.

[Morty]

I see the henka as a legitimate technique for smaller rikishi to use against larger ones. It makes no sense to go straight at a guy that outweighs you by 60-70kgs. When Takekaze uses it against a guy larger than him it makes total sense to me because it is exactly what I would do in the situation. The very first time I watched sumo Terao used it to beat Konishiki (I think - it was a long time ago), when I never thought he had a hope in hell of beating someone that big. Little guys using the henka on big guys isn't lack of fighting spirit, it is intelligence

[krindel]

My issue with henka is when it comes from rikishi who I believe have no other skill or weapon in their arsenal (which is where I place Takekaze for example), or from rikishi who over-rely on it when they have the ability and strength to be fighting differently (i.e Aran, although yorikiried by fate's statement also amazes me in that regard).

When it comes as just another method from someone who has shown to be able to win with a variety of techniques, then no problem. I still find Harumfaji's henka on Hakuho to be one of the most hilarious bouts I've ever seen...

P.S. Takanoyama is an oddity, and as such is an issue all by himself. I applaud the guy's fighting spirit no end, and I wholeheartedly support him when he's fighting, but I really wouldn't like it if there were many rikishi like him in makuuchi.

[shumitto]

I see the henka as a legitimate technique for smaller rikishi to use against larger ones.

That was what annoyed some fans the most about Wakanoho's sumo, IIRC. He was not like Mainoumi, Terao or Takanoyama or any other one we could accept it from. He was the size of an Okinoumi or Hakuho, yet doing small man's sumo. Roho (ab)used the right to henka to a fault, too, and excessive use also turns the crowd off.

[Akinomaki]

Today's dohyo-iri by Hakuho had two brothers-in-law as attendants, Kyokutenho and Shotenro. Kaisei paired against Hahuho made a change necessary. The yokozuna apparently asked Shotenro, who is from a different ichimon, although a switch with one of Harumafuji's crew would have been possible.

[Akinomaki]

What happened to the harite ban for Harumafuji ? Apparently Shohozan went K.O. a few moments after he got hit by the second slap. "I kept on a bit, but suddenly my strength faded", his knees collapsing, though the kimarite was shitatenage.

[Masumasumasu]

What happened to the harite ban for Harumafuji ? Apparently Shohozan went K.O. a few moments after he got hit by the second slap. "I kept on a bit, but suddenly my strength faded", his knees collapsing, though the kimarite was shitatenage.

Harumafuji is a desperate man who will do anything to prevent his becoming a short-lived Yokozuna.

Slapping people silly is his only technique.

[Masumasumasu]

Re: Henka

The Henka is an utterly-reprehensible entity.

Igordemorais, myself, and many others on this forum would stand a decent chance of defeating many of the larger, heavier rikishi with a Henka.

[botev1921]

Slapofuji and Elbuho - two of the worst Yokozuna I have ever seen. I want Musashimaru and Akebono back!

[Kintamayama]

Re: Henka

The Henka is an utterly-reprehensible entity.

Igordemorais, myself, and many others on this forum would stand a decent chance of defeating many of the larger, heavier rikishi with a Henka.

No you wouldn't. Not one in a million. Henka is not just moving to the side. It's timing, man. You can't do that. You'd be on your ass in a twinkling against any of the "heavier rikishi", man. Nonsense, dude.

[Kintamayama]

What happened to the harite ban for Harumafuji ? Apparently Shohozan went K.O. a few moments after he got hit by the second slap. "I kept on a bit, but suddenly my strength faded", his knees collapsing, though the kimarite was shitatenage.

There was never a harite ban. It was some old fart from the YDC who said he would "like to see Harumafuji do Yokozuna Sumo", to which rijicho agreed as lip service so as not to anger him and maybe cause him some damage.

[Kintamayama]

Slapofuji and Elbuho - two of the worst Yokozuna I have ever seen. I want Musashimaru and Akebono back!

You can have them- both of them together don't have the number of yusho the lousy Hakuhou has.

[Masumasumasu]

Re: Henka

The Henka is an utterly-reprehensible entity.

Igordemorais, myself, and many others on this forum would stand a decent chance of defeating many of the larger, heavier rikishi with a Henka.

No you wouldn't. Not one in a million. Henka is not just moving to the side. It's timing, man. You can't do that. You'd be on your ass in a twinkling against any of the "heavier rikishi", man. Nonsense, dude.

You don't think there is a chance that a speedy, well-trained MMA-style fighter could even possibly pull a Henka against a less-mobile rikishi like Gagamaru or Tenkaiho?

[Masumasumasu]

Slapofuji and Elbuho - two of the worst Yokozuna I have ever seen. I want Musashimaru and Akebono back!

Right on, brother!

I agree 100%.

[Kintamayama]

Re: Henka

The Henka is an utterly-reprehensible entity.

Igordemorais, myself, and many others on this forum would stand a decent chance of defeating many of the larger, heavier rikishi with a Henka.

No you wouldn't. Not one in a million. Henka is not just moving to the side. It's timing, man. You can't do that. You'd be on your ass in a twinkling against any of the "heavier rikishi", man. Nonsense, dude.

You don't think there is a chance that a speedy, well-trained MMA-style fighter could even possibly pull a Henka against a less-mobile rikishi like Gagamaru or Tenkaiho?

And we have those in abundance here? Your first sentence suggests " many others on this forum" when I know full well fat old farts are the extreme majority here.. With all due respect, I don't think you or Igordemorais stand a chance again them.. I didn't know you were a speedy, well trained MMA style fighter, and if you are, much respect for that.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Kintamayama

[botev1921]

Slapofuji and Elbuho - two of the worst Yokozuna I have ever seen. I want Musashimaru and Akebono back!

You can have them- both of them together don't have the number of yusho the lousy Hakuhou has.

I bet if Hakuho had the competition those two faced in their careers, he won't have more than 10 yusho. Asa was never competition as he was on the decline and the current Ozeki + ***fuji are and have been nothing short of terrible!

[Asashosakari]

I must admit I'm starting to like these catch-all threads, though probably not for the reason originally intended.

[Kintamayama]

Slapofuji and Elbuho - two of the worst Yokozuna I have ever seen. I want Musashimaru and Akebono back!

You can have them- both of them together don't have the number of yusho the lousy Hakuhou has.

I bet if Hakuho had the competition those two faced in their careers, he won't have more than 10 yusho. Asa was never competition as he was on the decline and the current Ozeki + ***fuji are and have been nothing short of terrible!

That we'll never know, as that would be comparing Napoleon to Shwartzkopf. What we do know is this: Musashimaru was a very mediocre Ozeki (for 33 bashos..) who nobody in his right mind dreamed would ever make it to yokozuna, and I have a poll I did back then to prove it. Circumstances helped him become yokozuna (as is ALWAYS the case) and he took that step forward. Akebono was out, came back, Takanohana was out, Wakanohana was non-existent. When he was promoted, both Hanada brothers were out. There was only one basho (!!) when all 4 yokozuna were there, and only 1 basho when three yokozunas were there and got a KK, there meaning healthy. So let's put this legend to rest. Most of the time one or two yokozunas were injured and out, making it usually two active yokozunas, mostly. Database. Check it. Musashimaru was a great yokozuna, but doesn't hold a candle to Hakuhou.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Igordemorais]

I'm a grappler and wrestler and MMA practitioner who weights 100kgs and I believe that I would be flung out of the dohyo like a stuffed bear if I stepped in there, henka or no henka.

And whoever says Harumafuji`s sumo isn't Yokozuna sumo can eat my ---------- and go stick a --------- right up their righteous ------------.

Harumafuji is a ---------- pitbull, a furious sumo beast of havoc and destruction and technique, and nothing makes me happier than seeing him slap the ---------

out of some poor son of a --------.

The H-bomb mega slap is his trademark!

[Gusoyama]

I'm okay with whatever sumo a rikishi chooses to do as long as they have fighting spirit. I know I sound like an old fuddy duddy that points to the invisible and says "That's how it should be", but certain rikishi have either lost the fighting spirit, or have never had it, or have not found it yet. Others have it in spades. The same can be said about techniques, I tolerate an elbow to the chin much more from Hakuho than I would Kokkai, who looked like a circus bear run amok in his Makushita days.