Leaderboard (Natsu Basho 2004 Day 9)

[Naganoyama]

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After day 9, May 2004, Makuuchi division scores are:
Wins	Rikishi	Shikona
9	0	-
8	3	Asashoryu, Hokutoriki, Kinkaiyama
7	6	Kaio, Wakanosato, Tamanoshima, Kokkai, Futeno, Hakuho
6	3	Chiyotaikai, Iwakiyama, Takekaze
5	7	Musoyama, Kotomitsuki, Tokitsuumi, Kyokushuzan, Hayateumi, Kaiho, Jumonji
4	7	Kakizoe, Kotonowaka, Tochisakae, Kotoryu, Tosanoumi, Aminishiki, Takanowaka
3	5	Tochinonada, Shimotori, Dejima, Takamisakari, Harunoyama
2	5	Kyokutenho, Buyuzan, Toki, Asanowaka, Kobo
1	2	Miyabiyama, Asasekiryu
0	0	-

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After day 9, May 2004, Juryo division scores are:
Wins	Rikishi	Shikona
9	1	Tokitenku
8	0	-
7	5	Kasugao, Takanotsuru, Wakanoyama, Kotooshu, Toyonoshima
6	2	Otsukasa, Hagiwara
5	1	Roho
4	9	Toyozakura, Yotsukasa, Wakatoba, Chiyotenzan, Ama, Gojoro, Bushuyama, Hamanishiki, Wakakosho
3	4	Kaido, Kitazakura, Sumanofuji, Dewanofuji
2	2	Tamakasuga, Tochifudo
1	2	Oikari, Daishodai
0	0	-

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[aderechelsea]

What is Kinkaiyama still doing up there ...... (Punk rocker...)

nice work from him, but i doubt this will last more.

Hokutoriki is a big yusho candidate because he has his own fate in his hands.He can hope for an Asashoryu loss in the last days and never need a playoff.

now that i am thinking it if Asa loses to Kaio or Wakanosato then they can win the yusho too...... (Showing respect...)

cool basho we are having........

i enjoy it more than the last one with the unbeaten ozekis and yokozuna .....

[Kashunowaka]

Hokutoriki is a big yusho candidate because he has his own fate in his hands.He can hope for an Asashoryu loss in the last days and never need a playoff.

I still see a Hokutoriki yusho as unlikely. He will face Kokkai tomorrow, and then probably Kyokutenho, Kotomitsuki, Tochinonada + two lower-ranked maegashira. (Perhaps they will bring up Kinkaiyama to face Hokutoriki?)

If Hokutoriki manages to go 4-2 over the last six days, he has done extremely well. But I don't think 12-3 will be enough for yusho. Asashoryu is still my favourite to win, with 14-1 or 13-2.

[Zuikakuyama]

I find the practice of bring up lower-ranked rikishis with good records against hokutoriki rather unfair. Such a rikishi is probably more dangerous than a upper megashira with a middling record.

He should have exactly the same schedule as the sankuyus and yokozunas (i.e., from sanyaku down to mega 5), and if he has the best record, then that should be the end of that.

Of course, if you are a lower ranked rikishi with a good record near the end of the basho, they should be pitted against the sanyakus to test their mettle and prove that they deserve the yusho.

[Yoavoshimaru]

I don't think I agree, Zuikakuyama-zeki. Hot rikishi should be faced off against each other. That's more exciting and more decisive than going purely by rank. Then again, if two maegashira end up at 13-2 I suppose we could always have a kettei-sen ;-)

[Asashosakari]

He should have exactly the same schedule as the sankuyus and yokozunas (i.e., from sanyaku down to mega 5), and if he has the best record, then that should be the end of that.

Of course, if you are a lower ranked rikishi with a good record near the end of the basho, they should be pitted against the sanyakus to test their mettle and prove that they deserve the yusho.

I think you're looking at this from only one angle of a possible two...it's not necessarily that high-scoring lower Maegashira are being brought up, it's often that low-scoring high-rankers are given a break towards the end of the basho.

E.g., now that Miyabiyama and Asasekiryu are already make-koshi, they probably won't be made to face all of their remaining joi-jin opposition, and instead they'll get opponents who are doing equally bad this basho (like Buyuzan or Tosanoumi). Asasekiryu-Hokutoriki hasn't happened yet, and I'm not sure it will, given their wildly different successes this basho.

I agree that, theoretically, everybody in joi-jin should have the same opponents, but that's not even happening when there's no possibility of Maegashira yusho, since week 2 always sees a bit of this pairing up of better records and of worse records. On the plus side, it pretty much affects everybody equally...often high-scoring lower rankers tend to be brought up against the leading Ozeki and the Yokozuna, so then it's those top guys who get better opponents rather than cannon fodder. It just comes with the territory of leading the yusho arasoi, and this time it's Hokutoriki's turn by virtue of his performance. Nothing sinister about it. :-)

Anyway, all high Maegashira yusho can be debated endlessly along the same lines: If the Maegashira faced good lower rankers instead of the 'normal' opponents, it's "he didn't even face all the top rankers; he doesn't deserve the yusho!" If he didn't face any good lower rankers and instead got the normal joi-jin, it's "he didn't even face anybody who was on form; he doesn't deserve the yusho!"

In the end, I'll opt for good sumo...and that just might mean Hokutoriki versus Kokkai and Kinkaiyama, rather than against Kyokutenho and Asasekiryu. ;-)

[Doitsuyama]

Of course, if you are a lower ranked rikishi with a good record near the end of the basho, they should be pitted against the sanyakus to test their mettle and prove that they deserve the yusho.

Well, Kokkai IS sort of a lower ranked rikishi with a good record, so why not pit him against Hokutōriki to "test his mettle"?... Note that such rikishi usually get high Maegashira first before going against Sanyaku.

[Kashunowaka]

I agree that, theoretically, everybody in joi-jin should have the same opponents

I don't agree, not even in theory. ;-) (Actually I wonder whether you really meant that.)

In theory, it would mean that the top consisted of a "mini-league" with the top 16 rikishi + some extras to cover for inter-heya combinations and kyujo.

With such a scheme, the difference in torikumi between rikishi #16 and rikishi #17 would get huge: #16 would meet *only* higher ranked opponents, and #17 only lower (apart from the "extra" bouts).

In practice, the torikumi is broken up a little so that some of the bouts between top maegashira are left out of the torikumi. Instead they get a few lower ranked maegashira, often with similar record as themselves.

Still, there is of course a point on the banzuke where the opposition gets markedly easier.

[Yoavoshimaru]

I like the current scheme. It leaves things exciting and a bit up in the air. You don't want a rikishi to know that no matter how well he does, he won't face the yokozuna or ozeki. Similarly, if a maegashira is just superbly on his game and is running along at 9-1 after 10 days, everyone wants to see him pitted against a star opponent. No one will be happy if, for example, Asashoryu ends up 13-2 with losses to Hoku and Kaio, but Kinkaiyama wins the yusho at 14-1 not having faced anyone higher than M7.

[Asashosakari]

I agree that, theoretically, everybody in joi-jin should have the same opponents

I don't agree, not even in theory. (In love...) (Actually I wonder whether you really meant that.)

Hmm, I had to re-read that again, I actually wasn't sure if I meant that either. :-P Let's retry...What I meant was that fundamentally it might be a good idea that everybody in joi-jin should have the exact same program of opponents in order to get as close as possible to a situation of "perfect competition" (fellow economists please excuse the bastardized use of that term (In love...)) so we could find out who the objectively best rikishi in a given basho is.

I'm actually pretty agnostic on the idea as such...if it was possible, I don't think I'd be opposed on it (which is probably what I meant by "I agree", although the rest of my statement was phrased badly), at least until/unless it was shown to produce vastly less interesting bashos - which, admittedly, would probably happen quite quickly, but anyway. (In love...) After all, there are already divisions; adding such a pseudo-divisional barrier to the torikumi wouldn't be that much different in philosophy from the Makuuchi/Juryo dividing. But my point, I think, was that the NSK routinely sets the torikumi in ways that don't conform to that ideal (and not just for runaway Maegashira with yusho chances, but for almost everyone, including Ozeki/Yokozuna), and that there are reasons for that. Your explanation points to some of the reasons that force the Kyokai to do it anyway (i.e. no intra-heya bouts etc), and other than that I pretty much agree with what Yoavoshimaru wrote. (In love...) Taking away the unpredictability from the torikumi making would likely impact the suspense level of the basho, because it doesn't allow for adjustments to unexpected events, like Hokutoriki and Kinkaiyama this time around.

Edited May 17, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Jesinofuji]

I would love to see Hokutoriki vs. Asasekiryu this basho. Their records may be opposite, but I think Sekiryu would fight with renewed vigor if he were up against Hokutoriki because he wants to help out his stablemate, friend, and mentor.

I think that low ranked rikishi with exceptional records should be put up against eachother and against higher rikishi than they normally would face at their rank. If they can still win in that situation, then they deserve the yusho. If they cannot, they don't.

[Zuikakuyama]

I think everyone agrees that lower ranked megashhira with good yusho chances should be brought up against the sanyakus, preferably around day 10.

The more difficult questions in my mind is whether a high megashira with good yusho chances (who by that time will normally have faced most of the high rankers) should be pitted against 'normal' opposition or have the good performing low rankers brought up against them.

I think that in the case of yokozunas and ozekis, they would be pitted against their 'normal' opposition (even those with a terrible record) rather than a mid-ranker with a good record in the second week. So for example, in the March basho, Asashoryu faced Aminishiki and Tosanoumi on days 9 and 10 even though they were 2-6 and 1-8 respectively.

It just seems to me that the high megashira with yusho chances are being somewhat penalized becasue they had the tough schedule early, so the kyokai has the liberty of pitting them against tougher opposition (meaning better record rikishis) if they wanted to. I think this was what happened to mickey's yusho in 2001 when he was mega 2 and they brought up some mega 8's against him in week 2.

By the way, Asashosakari, I dont agree with the statement that people will complain that the high megashira had an easy schedule if they win yusho and they had essentially the same schedule as the sanyakus and yokozunas. The yokozunas and the sanyakus also had essentially the same schedule, so who is to say the high megashira doesn't deserve yusho if he gets a better overall record?

But I also agree that it makes for a more exciting match to see rikishis with good records, irrespective of their rank, going against each other.

I guess this just shows the quandry that the torikumi makers faces.

[Zuikakuyama]

Hmm, looks like they are going to put the good performing rikishis against Hokutoriki.

He gets kinkaiyama (m13) tomorrow.

The rest of the ozeki on up gets 'normal' oppostion.

Edited May 18, 2004 by Zuikakuyama

[aderechelsea]

i have to agree with Zuikakuyama-san on this one....

i think Hokutoriki proved that he would deserve a yusho if his record is good by winning all the ozeki and the yokozuna by day6.He don't have to beat the "in form rikishi" too.....

[Yoavoshimaru]

Fair or not, the crowd and I think the NSK want to see hot rikishi facing each other. It makes for increased excitement, great sumo (hopefully), and crowd satisfaction.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Fair or not, the crowd and I think the NSK want to see hot rikishi facing each other.  It makes for increased excitement, great sumo (hopefully), and crowd satisfaction.

I agree. Hokutoriki is on form and on form rikishi are always fun to see. I think the Kyokai couldn't care less about fair when the alternative to putting two on-form rikishi against each other in a match to anticipate, is to put Hokutoriki against for example a Miyabiyama who I still have difficulty believing actually attends the basho. And I think that's the way it should be... :-)

Edited May 18, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Zuikakuyama]

Ah, yes, but the Kyokai seems to not apply the same policy when it comes to making exciting Ozeki and Yokozuna matches on days 10-12 by bringing in lower-rankers with good records against them, rather than their 'regular' opponents (regardless of whether they have bad records or not).

Perhaps there is prestige associated with being in the top two ranks that gives them the priviledge of only facing the upper megashiras unless there was a yusho threat by the lower megashira.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Ah, yes, but the Kyokai seems to not apply the same policy when it comes to making exciting Ozeki and Yokozuna matches on days 10-12 by bringing in lower-rankers with good records against them, rather than their 'regular' opponents (regardless of whether they have bad records or not).

Perhaps there is prestige associated with being in the top two ranks that gives them the priviledge of only facing the upper megashiras unless there was a yusho threat by the lower megashira.

I'm not sure I follow. That is exactly the same principle, isn't it? Ozekis and Yokozunas pretty much always have to meet among themselves, and surely it will be a more interesting match with Asashoryu against a runaway Maegashira than against a M02 that is already 3-9 or so?

And for that matter, if the Ozekis and Yokozunas did not meet runaway maegashiras, the runaway maegashiras could take the yusho without quality opponents, which is the reason they are brought up in the first place.

But I'm not sure I understand what you mean, so plase elaborate (Blinking...)

Edited May 19, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama