How would you repair sumo

[Asashosakari]

However, for the top guys there is no need for mediators.

On the contrary, all articles and speculations, including one written by one such self-professed mediator himself, point to the fat that it was ALWAYS done through a mediator (usually a tsukebito) in the higher ranks, probably so no trail will lead back to the rikishi himself, although that kind of thinking is dumb in itself.. This reminds me of Kyokutenzan a few years back who was seen shuffling between the shitakubeya daily and was sternly reprimanded for it. He left sumo a short while later.

You two are talking about different types of mediator roles though, aren't you? I think Flohru means that, short of establishing an Itai-like system where everybody fakes it with everybody for no reason other than they can, upper-makuuchi yaocho could be done on a series of one-to-one contacts so any nakabon are only there (as you're saying) for plausible deniability and so the rikishi himself don't have to bother with the details, and technically aren't needed. The juryo system with Enatsukasa at the centre is of a different type because basic survival of a large number of rikishi was the goal and for that you need an entire interconnected network with the nakabon essentially doing a full-time job coordinating the whole thing.

Rikishi aren't going to be willing to hand a win to Kasuganishiki if he's the only one they can get it back from, both because a) Kasuganishiki might be gone suddenly as Flohru said, and b) when those other rikishi find themselves in danger Kasuganishiki might not be a guy from whom they can call in their favour (because they're ranked too far apart or already faced each other that basho). The nakabon keeps the system going by enhancing the number of contact pairs. By contrast, upper makuuchi yaocho seems - to me anyway - more about selling wins to high-rankers for money and about long-term convenience, i.e. injury prevention through reduced fighting effort, but less about trying to ensure immediate survival, so that's a situation where large interconnected networks aren't a definite requirement for it to function. Or in other words, most meatgrinder rikishi could afford to do "free-agent yaocho" while most perennial juryo rikishi would have to join a "guild-based" system.

Whether that's how it actually works is a different question. In practice, I suspect that, even if you start with a one-to-one system, you'd see an organic development towards a system where some intermediates (or like Itai, some participants) become much more important "nodes" than others.

[Flohru]

However, for the top guys there is no need for mediators.

On the contrary, all articles and speculations, including one written by one such self-professed mediator himself, point to the fat that it was ALWAYS done through a mediator (usually a tsukebito) in the higher ranks, probably so no trail will lead back to the rikishi himself, although that kind of thinking is dumb in itself.. This reminds me of Kyokutenzan a few years back who was seen shuffling between the shitakubeya daily and was sternly reprimanded for it. He left sumo a short while later.

You two are talking about different types of mediator roles though, aren't you? I think Flohru means that, short of establishing an Itai-like system where everybody fakes it with everybody for no reason other than they can, upper-makuuchi yaocho could be done on a series of one-to-one contacts so any nakabon are only there (as you're saying) for plausible deniability and so the rikishi himself don't have to bother with the details, and technically aren't needed. The juryo system with Enatsukasa at the centre is of a different type because basic survival of a large number of rikishi was the goal and for that you need an entire interconnected network with the nakabon essentially doing a full-time job coordinating the whole thing.

Exactly what I meant, thanks for clearing up.

[Kintamayama]

Ex-Mainoumi spoke at the Kansai Press club today and had some suggestions for the Kyokai.

1. Give up the special "public corporation" status. "If the Kyokai would come out on their own and say 'We have caused a lot of bother and wish to relinquish our special status', they would be seen as coming clean and standing like an honest rikishi in front of the public. The more they cling to the status the more needy and pathetic they look."

2. "The top Maegashira and the lowest Maegashira get the same salary. To make everyone try harder, wouldn't it be better if the salary increased with the rank?"

"Seriously folks, a horse comes into a bar.."

Edited March 8, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama]

The Relapse Prevention Committee is to convene tomorrow, and some of their proposals were leaked. 3 of the 8 members wish to see the Kosho system return. "The six basho a year system is hard on the rikishi's body. We should re-instate the kosho system, but this time have a serious medical committee decide if a Kosho will be given to a rikishi or not based on the injury. The various Oyakata should instill a sense of duty and purpose to the rikishi who mount the dohyo. Any rikishi found to be doing yaocho should be swiftly and mercilessly kicked out," said Mr. Shimamura, one of the external guys. Shibatayama Oyakata says that in the end it all boils down to the relationship between the Oyakata and his deshi. He proposes putting five inspecting Oyakatas in the shitakubeya to try to root out lethargic sumo. Together with the ring-side shinpan, they should be able to cover all bases. Ex-Tosanoumi who retired recently will try to cover yet another base: "I am honored to be part of this committee. As I am very close to the current crop of rikishi and know them well, I would like to listen to what they have to say," he said, suggesting he can get closer to what's happening than anyone else.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama]

Juryo rikishi make 1,036,000 yen/month IIRC. That comes to 12,432,000 yen/year. A comparison with some other salaries in Tokyo: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tokyo-sa....0,5_IM1071.htm

[Doitsuyama]

Juryo rikishi make 1,036,000 yen/month IIRC. That comes to 12,432,000 yen/year. A comparison with some other salaries in Tokyo: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tokyo-sa....0,5_IM1071.htm

The risk to be "fired" is much higher for a juryo rikishi though. One bad basho means a drop to makushita which basically means you are fired (in comparison with the above jobs). A week of job sickness? If it is at the wrong time (during the basho) you are fired. Injuries on the job? Fired. Getting weak with age (like, 32 years old)? Fired.

And there isn't really anything like a "pension system" as an oyakata, as that is more like buying into the firm as a kabu is quite expensive. Besides it's rarely an option for the average juryo rikishi as certain limitations have to be met.

Basically it's totally understandable that juryo rikishi try to hang on their job with all available means, no matter if it's illegal. Even rikishi like Kasuganishiki (56 sekitori basho), Kakizoe (48 sekitori basho) or Asofuji (36 sekitori basho) have to struggle to stay in the Kyokai after their active career on borrowed kabu, if they don't have to leave at once or soon after.

Of course this is very unfair to the makushita rikishi who can't get up for the occasional juryo basho (not more than that I think since in general the juryo yaocho clique must be strong enough to make it work), as those rikishi left in the dust have even a much harder time after their career without savings. On the other hand it could be that those "betrayed" makushita rikishi know of the yaocho existence and are ok with it as this simply means a better chance to stay longer in juryo if they make it up there. It's not like juryo has become a closed shop, there are still plenty of promotions and demotions. Since a rikishi must be strong enough to do yaocho even the overall numbers of sekitori basho might not be affected all that much.

Then there still is the argument that the spectators are betrayed because they watch the bouts with the illusion of an unclear outcome (which is why most people watch sport in first place). Since a good yaocho bout is recognizable only for the most gifted viewer (if that is even possible) it seems to me the only problem is that the illusion has blown up as the bouts were ok for the most part. There even is the added bonus of some hilarious flying from the dohyo if the fall isn't that well executed (Baruto comes to mind here).

My two cents to repair this situation: If it is possible to detect yaocho bouts (as some are intent on) then an expert oyakata group watching the bouts (or even the shinpan) should be given the option to immediately give the bout an outcome of a double fusenpai, but nothing more (like kyujo or suspended basho or even forced intai). I think after a few such actions the rikishi would think very hard if it's worth the risk to do yaocho (as doing yaocho inherently is a risk/reward calculation anyway).

If that is not an option then limiting communication channels between rikishi also is important here so it does make sense to forbid cell phones or even tsukebito meeting in the Kokugikan. I wouldn't even have a problem with making email accounts available to a comitee, forbid to use other accounts etc. Olympic athletes must be available at all times for doping controls which also is very much limiting their private lifes.

[Peterao]

My two cents to repair this situation: If it is possible to detect yaocho bouts (as some are intent on) then an expert oyakata group watching the bouts (or even the shinpan) should be given the option to immediately give the bout an outcome of a double fusenpai, but nothing more (like kyujo or suspended basho or even forced intai). I think after a few such actions the rikishi would think very hard if it's worth the risk to do yaocho (as doing yaocho inherently is a risk/reward calculation anyway).

I think that that would just eliminate elaborate yaocho. Rikishi still intent on doing yaocho would probably resort to a quick henka (either going down for the fall, or getting quickly pushed off the dohyo when their "tactics" failed), making for a match that's too short to question. But if you also went ahead and instituted matta (or maybe even a hansoku for a 2nd offense) for anything other than a straight-on tachiai, then maybe the stone would also kill the second bird of disappointing henka matches as well.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Peterao

[Otokonoyama]

Juryo rikishi make 1,036,000 yen/month IIRC. That comes to 12,432,000 yen/year. A comparison with some other salaries in Tokyo: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tokyo-sa....0,5_IM1071.htm

The risk to be "fired" is much higher for a juryo rikishi though. One bad basho means a drop to makushita which basically means you are fired (in comparison with the above jobs). A week of job sickness? If it is at the wrong time (during the basho) you are fired. Injuries on the job? Fired. Getting weak with age (like, 32 years old)? Fired.

And there isn't really anything like a "pension system" as an oyakata, as that is more like buying into the firm as a kabu is quite expensive. Besides it's rarely an option for the average juryo rikishi as certain limitations have to be met.

Definitely difficult to compare rikishi to other careers. But, I know people in Tokyo who made good cash (~9-25 million yen/year) who lost their jobs to drug abuse, downsizing, outsourcing, and other career pitfalls. As to the pensions, are you saying that the salaried ranks don't pay into nor collect nenkin, the national pension?

[Asashosakari]

And there isn't really anything like a "pension system" as an oyakata, as that is more like buying into the firm as a kabu is quite expensive.

Even borrowing a kabu isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's only rumours of course, but the numbers I've seen for such lending arrangements ran into the 3-500,000 yen per month range, which would constitute about half the entry-level oyakata salary. And for that cost most of them don't even enjoy particularly strong job security due to the ever-present danger of the owner needing the share for himself (unless it's somebody like Kisenosato, of course).

[Zenjimoto]

If that is not an option then limiting communication channels between rikishi also is important here so it does make sense to forbid cell phones or even tsukebito meeting in the Kokugikan. I wouldn't even have a problem with making email accounts available to a comitee, forbid to use other accounts etc. Olympic athletes must be available at all times for doping controls which also is very much limiting their private lifes.

Give me a break. It's 2011. Not allowing cell phones is like not allowing indoor plumbing or food refrigeration. Besides, a ban would be completely un-enforceable. Even prisoners regularly have cellphones at their disposal, and they are in... well... prison! ;-)

Another thing, cranking up the draconism of sumo won't do it any good. Already youngsters don't want to join the sport, and would rather dabble in the freer, cooler other sports, rather than living in a heya as slaves - at least for a while, until they're good enough to start doing Yaocho :-(

My suggestion would be to switch the salary/prize money system to a merit-based system in accordance with Basho results, not with mere rank. While the Banzuke system could remain in place, I would reform its "calculation" to more closely resemble ELO-type points, directly based on how Rikishi did in the Basho. Instead of the current division-based tournaments, I propose ONE giant tournament as a huge multiple-elimination bracket, where in theory anybody on the Banzuke gets a shot at THE big (and ONLY) Yusho. This way, strong newcomers won't need to suffer in obscurity for a year and a half working their way up the Banzuke, and the Yaocho problem should be going away, as a loss most of the time means elimination from the tourney, and therefore less ranking points, a drop in standing, and/or less win bonus money, etc. :-) The Banzuke is then used to "seed" the tournament bracket in a top vs. bottom manner. Divisional mini-Yusho prizes could still be handed out for the top performers of each division, not dissimilar to how some sumo games do.

I realize that doing away with the "traditional" Banzuke system is a loss in terms of sumo history, but a "revised" Banzuke system could still hold the same beauty in being a calligraphic masterpiece, with all the same ranks intact... simply the rules of promotion an demotion different (and yes, it would put an end to GTB, because we could actually "Calculate TB" at any time). I think it would be a more realistic way of fixing the inherent problem at the root, without really destroying the basic structures. I actually think that an elimination bracket system could be a lot more exciting than the current format.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Zenjimoto

[Asashosakari]

Instead of the current division-based tournaments, I propose ONE giant tournament as a huge multiple-elimination bracket, where in theory anybody on the Banzuke gets a shot at THE big (and ONLY) Yusho. This way, strong newcomers won't need to suffer in obscurity for a year and a half working their way up the Banzuke

How's that going to work if newcomers are made to face the hardest available opponents early on every time? From your subsequent comment that "the Yaocho problem should be going away, as a loss most of the time means elimination from the tourney" I'm guessing you're proposing at most a double-elimination structure.

Anyway, that idea might work great for internet prediction games, but out in the sporting world where the skill differences between top and bottom are just way too huge, it's a complete non-starter in my opinion. Just ponder this: How many bouts between an average maegashira and an average jonidan rikishi would it take for a jonidan guy to win the first bout? 20? 50? 200? There are reasons pretty much no serious sport throws complete beginners into the main competition. And even the sports with knockout structures, such as tennis, typically offer multiple "tours" with wildly different levels of experience and prize money. You're not seeing a Federer type play a $50,000 Challenger tournament except for rehab practice, and nobody's clamouring to make the Grand Slams into 1024-player, 10-round knockout tourneys because the first few rounds would be completely pointless (and unwatched). In other words, every sport* has divisions of some kind, Ozumo is just more explicit about it. (You'd also require a lot more than six annual tournaments to make the "banzuke" meaningful at all in a knockout structure. Good luck with that...)

* Except niche sports with about 42 active players worldwide. Those don't need divisions for their "world championships", of course. If Ozumo atrophies beyond the point on the spectrum that amateur sumo currently occupies, then yeah, single-division knockout tourneys would be fine...

Edited March 9, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Zenjimoto]

The multiple elimination bracket I had in mind would be such that once you lose, you maybe get another shot at the big prize through the one-time losers' bracket. If you lose again, you'd be out for the title, but would still be facing other losers on other days to determine placings in the lower ranks and earn ranking points to move further up the next banzuke. This way every rikishi would fight roughly the same amount of bouts each tournament, except their stakes in that basho decrease with each kuroboshi. Meanwhile the winners continue to face more winners, until they lose, and face the losers of the same round, etc. A bit complex, but by no means un-doable.

I think there would be plenty of newcomers who would be able to make at least a moderate impact. Even if they lost to the Sanyaku in the first round, they would get another shot and with some luck may beat a sekitori, and move on from there to finish in the top-32 or better. If not, they can gather more ranking points against their loser-peers, and get a much better seed next basho... Meanwhile, the top rankers who are off their game get caught pretty quickly. No lingering around at Ozeki or mid-Juryo for years if you don't have it in you anymore!

Another possibility might be that lower rankers face each other first, and can work their way up into the BIG bracket by overcoming their peers in rank and getting a few wins under their belt, then face off with increasingly higher ranked opponents as the tourney matures.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Zenjimoto

[Doitsuyama]

The multiple elimination bracket I had in mind would be such that once you lose, you maybe get another shot at the big prize through the one-time losers' bracket. If you lose again, you'd be out for the title, but would still be facing other losers on other days to determine placings in the lower ranks and earn ranking points to move further up the next banzuke. This way every rikishi would fight roughly the same amount of bouts each tournament, except their stakes in that basho decrease with each kuroboshi. Meanwhile the winners continue to face more winners, until they lose, and face the losers of the same round, etc. A bit complex, but by no means un-doable.

That might be doable, but it's still hilarious to pair a jonokuchi rikishi with an ozeki. In similar open chess events the first round is usually made of pairings between top and bottom half (like you suggest), but in matching order, not with the bottom half in reverse order. This still leads to pretty lopsided pairings, usually even in round two, but it does work.

[Asashosakari]

In similar open chess events the first round is usually made of pairings between top and bottom half (like you suggest), but in matching order, not with the bottom half in reverse order. This still leads to pretty lopsided pairings, usually even in round two, but it does work.

But even there you have some self-selection going on - you're just not going to get grandmasters and "ten games a week" hobbyists in the same open event with any regularity. That was sort of my point in bringing up a 1024-man Wimbledon bracket - there are sooo many more competitive (though not necessarily professional) tennis players that it's a safe bet the skill difference between the world #10 and the world #1000 in tennis is much smaller than the difference between Toyonoshima (roughly #10 in Ozumo) and, say, Amanowaka who might be about #500 (= average rank Jd55). And even so, the ATP would never think to have their two guys compete in the same tournament unless the #1000 guy somehow succeeded through a lengthy qualifier phase first. It's just not done. (Again, who would even watch the first two rounds of a sumo tournament where the makuuchi guys won't face anybody ranked higher than mid-makushita? I'm sure not interested in seeing hundreds of lopsided matches on the off-chance of seeing four or five upsets at some point. Uninteresting early-round games are banished to the small courts for a reason in tennis.)

The sumo equivalent to a 128-player Grand Slam field might be a tournament with makuuchi and juryo combined (70 rikishi), but even there I think the difference between top and bottom (after removing extreme outliers like Nadal, Federer and Hakuho) would still be smaller in the tennis bracket despite featuring nearly twice as many players.

The whole point about how Ozumo tournaments are structured is that, somehow, it has stood the test of time with relatively few changes over the last 100+ years. (After the expanded acknowledgement of individual performance via the yusho prize back in 1909, the biggest change might well have been the removal of draws, and even that didn't change anything fundamentally.) Grand concepts that might sound good on paper but would get old really fast in practice aren't a suitable replacement. The Tenryu group tried a fairly different setup (I should find the article again...) in the 1930s but they couldn't sustain interest.

Edit: In any case, Zenjimoto's expanded idea about having losers fight on for lower stakes really isn't far removed from how the divisions below juryo already work. As I mentioned on Sumotalk a week or so ago, the reason it's not done in makuuchi and juryo is that there are simply not enough rikishi to make a "matching by record/prior bout result" structure work to any greater extent than what they do already (unless you're in favour of shortening the basho to less than 10 days). And expanding the field of eligible rikishi won't do anything good for all the reasons outlined above.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Yubinhaad]

Give me a break. It's 2011. Not allowing cell phones is like not allowing indoor plumbing or food refrigeration. Besides, a ban would be completely un-enforceable. Even prisoners regularly have cellphones at their disposal, and they are in... well... prison!

Indoor plumbing isn't likely to be used to arrange yaocho, unless the rikishi are smart enough to tap out morse code on the pipes.

A few years ago the Jockey Club tried to ban jockeys from using cellphones at racecourses, to try and prevent fixing of races. I don't follow that sport in the slightest so I have no idea if it worked or is still in place.

The multiple elimination bracket I had in mind would be such that once you lose, you maybe get another shot at the big prize through the one-time losers' bracket.

Such repechage formats are used in rowing events, I believe, among other sports.

[Otokonoyama]

Here's an example of how one sport in Japan has tried to stop a fixing problem:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/lockdo...0903-14ugl.html

[alpineviolet]

Here's an example of how one sport in Japan has tried to stop a fixing problem:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/lockdo...0903-14ugl.html

Maybe they should just threaten the rikishi with that article. "This is what will happen to you if you don't behave..." Yikes. (Flying a plane...)

[Otokonoyama]

I have it on good authority that in horse racing the JRA does the same with jockeys. When the weekend races are set on Friday, the jockeys must be in the venue's jockey room by 4 p.m. the same day. They can't leave until the final race is run on Sunday. The have no contact with the outside world, except in the case of an emergency. No cell phones, email, or any other form of communication.

[alpineviolet]

I have it on good authority that in horse racing the JRA does the same with jockeys. When the weekend races are set on Friday, the jockeys must be in the venue's jockey room by 4 p.m. the same day. They can't leave until the final race is run on Sunday. The have no contact with the outside world, except in the case of an emergency. No cell phones, email, or any other form of communication.

Isn't gambling on both of these sports legal in Japan? In that case, restrictions like these would make sense in a way, to make sure that everything is tightly controlled and fair.

[wanderer]

It is both shocking and devastating, but not surprising to learn that 2 consecutive bashos are canceled. I don't know what I will be doing until July.

I think, everybody saw it coming. Now everybody is discussing how to repair sumo. Well here is my two cents.

No little trickeries such as banning cellular phone, or putting the rikishi into house arrest will do much difference, really. Not even having a yacho prevention committee will help. To save sumo, the way of professional sumo needs to be changed fundamentally.

We all know that sumo is currently ran literally in middle ages. Some self claimed purists in this forum will say that this is a cultural thing and pretend to be in deep and cordial understanding with sumo traditions. They will come blazing on me in just few seconds after I post this message, and their names are big in this forum. I know that. Well, Japanese public have spoken now that things do change.

Sumo is basically ran by sumo elders, who have been the part of the problem for their entire life. Don't tell me that they don't tell their students "how things are done". This is a very closed community, where "inbreeding" inevitably takes place. "Returning a favor" has to be the way of life, or it can not be the other way around in this feudalistic community.

Back then, I used to wonder why stables keep some hopeless people. Well, they need them for everything from housekeeping to as yachoo messengers.

Yachoo is not only part of the sumo traditions, it IS THE CULTURE. Rikishi don't have even the basic rights that will help them to be independent, such as running a business or earning some extra on their own. So what they do? They will either bet on baseball matches or trade their wins. To be frank, they are not allowed to do anything else.

There are many sports that are ran successfully, profitably by professionals. Japanese are among the best in running professional sports yet keeping their traditions safe and sound. The greatest example is Judo. There were times when Judo had just few beyas around and few masters minding their schools. Look at it now, it is a world sport and Japan's greatest cultural export. But this is not important. The important thing is the level of competition in today's Judo world. It is incomparable to professional sumo: brilliant young judoka come from all over the world, the fight is endless. It is common that reining olympic champion gets ipponed by completely unknown youngster.

Yet Japanese excel in their national sport, bringing up legendary masters one after another, again and again.

I think Sumo needs to be changed not unlike the Judo, or it will become a circus. I am sure some people will still love the circus.

[Peterao]

It is both shocking and devastating, but not surprising to learn that 2 consecutive bashos are canceled. I don't know what I will be doing until July.

I may have missed something recently, but I don't think that anybody has said that the May basho is canceled...