Rikishi/Oyakata/YDC reactions to yaocho affair

[Kintamayama]

Even if half of the guys he fingers are legitimate subscribers to Falls Unlimited, there's still no concrete evidence that the fingered were actually involved.

Where can I get this DVD?

Seriously folks, 5 of the 21 are part of the new 14- looking at the list, it is totally believable. Glaringly missing of course are all Mongolians and Russians/Georgians. Only foreigners are a Korean and a Bulgarian.. Fingered indeed..

[Asashosakari]

Seriously folks, 5 of the 21 are part of the new 14

I count 8...

Edit: Among the 5 guys of the 13 sekitori (14 less Enatsukasa) that he didn't mention - Shotenro, YMY, Koryu, Kirinowaka, Wakatenro - Koryu is the only one he faced in a bout. Okay, he also met Kirinowaka, but before his (Wakanoho's) sekitori debut which he says was when his yaocho involvement began.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama]

Seriously folks, 5 of the 21 are part of the new 14

I count 8...

Edit: Among the 5 guys of the 13 sekitori (14 less Enatsukasa) that he didn't mention - Shotenro, YMY, Koryu, Kirinowaka, Wakatenro - Koryu is the only one he faced in a bout. Okay, he also met Kirinowaka, but before his (Wakanoho's) sekitori debut which he says was when his yaocho involvement began.

Yes, 8 is 5 here.

[shumitto]

Good list with very fishy rikishi. I still miss, though, the names of Kyokutenho, Baruto, Aminishiki, Tochiozan and some others... Talking about suspicious, Tochiozan's defeats to Kaio are usually the most derisory. Genki or not he crumbles for nothing and is not the only one in so doing .... What a shame... and now he has a kabu....

[Asashosakari]

Good list with very fishy rikishi. I still miss, though, the names of Kyokutenho, Baruto, Aminishiki, Tochiozan and some others... Talking about suspicious, Tochiozan's defeats to Kaio are usually the most derisory. Genki or not he crumbles for nothing and is not the only one in so doing .... What a shame... and now he has a kabu....

Believe it or not, Aminishiki was listed as one of the minority of gachinko rikishi in Shukan Gendai's 2007 series of stories.

[alpineviolet]

Good list with very fishy rikishi. I still miss, though, the names of Kyokutenho, Baruto, Aminishiki, Tochiozan and some others... Talking about suspicious, Tochiozan's defeats to Kaio are usually the most derisory. Genki or not he crumbles for nothing and is not the only one in so doing .... What a shame... and now he has a kabu....

Believe it or not, Aminishiki was listed as one of the minority of gachinko rikishi in Shukan Gendai's 2007 series of stories.

I was going to mention this, but I figured I'd sound totally biased. *points at userpic*

[Asojima]

Good list with very fishy rikishi. I still miss, though, the names of Kyokutenho, Baruto, Aminishiki, Tochiozan and some others... Talking about suspicious, Tochiozan's defeats to Kaio are usually the most derisory. Genki or not he crumbles for nothing and is not the only one in so doing .... What a shame... and now he has a kabu....

Believe it or not, Aminishiki was listed as one of the minority of gachinko rikishi in Shukan Gendai's 2007 series of stories.

Why would I not believe that?

Also, many have learned from the Toyonoshima setback that it is best for your career to take a bail out when Kaio tries to apply a kotenage. If you check the videos on many of Kaio's wins, they follow soon after an attempted or successful kotenage grip. Yotsu rikishi are particularly vulnerable. One win is not worth a one year healing setback.

[Mintofuji]

Good list with very fishy rikishi. I still miss, though, the names of Kyokutenho, Baruto, Aminishiki, Tochiozan and some others... Talking about suspicious, Tochiozan's defeats to Kaio are usually the most derisory. Genki or not he crumbles for nothing and is not the only one in so doing .... What a shame... and now he has a kabu....

While not having as bad a record against Kaio as Tochiozan, Kisenosato has also had troubles against Kaio, even when genki. He has lost his last 4 bouts against Kaio, including 2 days after stopping Hakuho's long streak, as well as day 14 of last year's Aki basho (which allowed Kaio to escape kadoban). But I think Kisenosato has always been considered to be gachinko, right?

It may be wishful thinking, but I'd like to think that Tochiozan just hasn't figured out what to do against Kaio, and has a psychological problem against him.

Another thing I noticed is that Wakanoho faced Tochiozan twice as a sekitori. They were consecutive tournaments, and Wakanoho won both times, which seems a little unusual if they had an agreement between them.

[Asashosakari]

But I think Kisenosato has always been considered to be gachinko, right?

Yes. I think people underestimate Kaio - don't forget the adage that a yaocho rikishi does need to be good enough to beat gachinko opponents, both because you can't survive only on fixed bouts, and because your fellow yaocho people will stop playing along with you if they figure you're no longer threatening enough to be worth protecting. (Granted, Kaio's special stature may make #2 less of an issue for him, and as Asojima says that Kaionage is pretty threatening independent of Kaio's actual bout-winning skills.)

Another thing I noticed is that Wakanoho faced Tochiozan twice as a sekitori. They were consecutive tournaments, and Wakanoho won both times, which seems a little unusual if they had an agreement between them.

On the other hand, there are situations like that even among the opponents Wakanoho has named: 2-0 for him against Kaiho and Toyozakura, each in back-to-back tournaments (2007.07/09 for Toyo, 2007.11/2008.01 for Kaiho), 2-0 against Kyokunankai and 0-2 against Tamarikido (each pair of bouts in 2007.01 and 2007.05), and three consecutive wins for Wakanoho against Shunketsu (2007.05-09). Of course, we've learnt that debts need not always be paid back against the exact same rikishi...

And while I'm looking at Wakanoho's opponents, notably not mentioned as yaocho rikishi: Wakakirin. (Blushing...) Maybe they were both too stoned to work out an arrangement. (Sorry for the snark.)

Believe it or not, Aminishiki was listed as one of the minority of gachinko rikishi in Shukan Gendai's 2007 series of stories.

Why would I not believe that?

Well, you and I might, but shumitto apparently isn't so inclined. Which just goes to show that it's very tough to figure out who's just very protective of his body and has decided that going all-out all the time isn't worth it even if he could have much better results if he did (Kyokutenho might be in that category as well), and who is protecting their body and their position through outright yaocho. The distinction between yaocho and mere "feeble" sumo is made for a reason. (Well, except by people who believe that any bout they find looking remotely suspicious must have been fixed...)

Edited February 21, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Mintofuji]

Another thing I noticed is that Wakanoho faced Tochiozan twice as a sekitori. They were consecutive tournaments, and Wakanoho won both times, which seems a little unusual if they had an agreement between them.

On the other hand, there are situations like that even among the opponents Wakanoho has named: 2-0 for him against Kaiho and Toyozakura, each in back-to-back tournaments (2007.07/09 for Toyo, 2007.11/2008.01 for Kaiho), 2-0 against Kyokunankai and 0-2 against Tamarikido (each pair of bouts in 2007.01 and 2007.05), and three consecutive wins for Wakanoho against Shunketsu (2007.05-09). Of course, we've learnt that debts need not always be paid back against the exact same rikishi...

Good point. So my observation of Wakanoho's record against Tochiozan doesn't really indicate anything. I would be interested to know more details of the arrangements that Wakanoho had with these rikishi in particular.

[Kintamayama]

The YDC will convene on March 10th. They usually meet after senshuraku, but since there won't be any in March, they will convene on the 10th. Chairman Tsuruta said this today: "We ask two things of the Kyokai- One, to definitely hold the May Basho, and two-punish all 14 mentioned in the mails-the four that admitted should be excommunicated, the other 10 should be demoted. " This, even though there may be totally innocent people among the ten. "My view is that half of the population are sumo fans. We cannot let them down. If we cancel May too, sumo will be forgotten," he added. Member Mr. Sawamura from Kabuki: "I would like to see at least one of us on the new committee to be established (slated to be made up of 5 inside people, 3 outside people and 5 Oyakata). It doesn't have to be me, as long as we have one of us inside. The Kyokai are having trouble finding any outsider willing to be part of this at present, which is understandable. So at this time, we, as insiders, would like the Kyokai to make use of us.."

Edited February 21, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama]

I would be interested to know more details of the arrangements that Wakanoho had with these rikishi in particular.

Maybe it would also be interesting to know more details of the arrangements Wakanohou had with the weekly.

[shumitto]

While not having as bad a record against Kaio as Tochiozan

My point here is not the bad record alone, but rather how those losses happen. I know many rikishi do have their nemesis but in this case it can also mean Tochiozan is protecting the veteranor some kind of favour. Anyway it's is just speculation.

Which just goes to show that it's very tough to figure out who's just very protective of his body and has decided that going all-out all the time isn't worth it even if he could have much better results if he did...

Kyokutenho specially has always given me the impression he was "managing" his bashos, counting the bouts he could throw and the ones he couldn't. But then again, it is pure speculation and it is really hard to figure. IF he is gachinko and I am wrong, way better this way.

[Asojima]

Kyokutenho specially has always given me the impression he was "managing" his bashos, counting the bouts he could throw and the ones he couldn't. But then again, it is pure speculation and it is really hard to figure. IF he is gachinko and I am wrong, way better this way.

Kyokutenho is waiting for his shisho's retirement to acquire his kabu. He has retired in place. He wins those matches that he must to stay in makuuchi. He is doing "risk management" in the matches that he does not have to win by avoiding unnecessary injuries. If he can get a safe win, he will take it. He does not intentionally "throw" matches.

[Asashosakari]

Kyokutenho is waiting for his shisho's retirement to acquire his kabu. He has retired in place. He wins those matches that he must to stay in makuuchi. He is doing "risk management" in the matches that he does not have to win by avoiding unnecessary injuries. If he can get a safe win, he will take it. He does not intentionally "throw" matches.

In fairness, based on exactly the same visual evidence one can reach the conclusion that he might be selling wins in "unneeded" bouts for extra money. And that's the whole problem here - it's perfectly possible to be a low-effort gachinko rikishi*, but unless doing yaocho is considered societally taboo, it's simply impossible to tell the difference between a guy who's low-effort for reasons of self-preservation (which simply makes it torikumi luck for his opponent to be facing him on that particular day), and somebody who's low-effort because his opponent has already promised him 800,000 yen for an intentional loss. As a Kyokutenho fan I'm of course hoping he's in the first camp, but I really have no idea.

To get away from the contentious names of Aminishiki and Kyokutenho - Tamanoshima was also listed among the 12 gachinko rikishi in the 2007 Gendai articles and he (at least since Jumonji exited makuuchi for good) is pretty much the reigning king of one-sided bouts, both in his wins as well as his losses. Based on what some people consider suspicious about rikishi's on-dohyo behaviour, you could probably name half his bouts as potential yaocho. (And I'm talking about both 2007 and today, in case somebody wants to object that maybe he's no longer gachinko now three years later and that's why his bouts look that way.)

* Perhaps not desirable from a fan's point of view, but that's a whole different issue.

Edit: I don't even mind if a guy who's normally "low-effort gachinko" is shown to be particularly low-effort against certain opponents or in certain situations (whether consciously or subconsciously)...charity losses are never gonna disappear from Ozumo simply because human nature isn't going away, and if somebody wants to lose particular bouts without premeditating it and without asking for any return favours or monetary compensation, I'm honestly okay with it. The Kyokai as the governing body will likely feel differently (at least officially) about it if they actually get tough on yaocho, though.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari]

The YDC will convene on March 10th. They usually meet after senshuraku, but since there won't be any in March, they will convene on the 10th. Chairman Tsuruta said this today: "We ask two things of the Kyokai- One, to definitely hold the May Basho, and two-punish all 14 mentioned in the mails-the four that admitted should be excommunicated, the other 10 should be demoted. " This, even though there may be totally innocent people among the ten. "My view is that half of the population are sumo fans. We cannot let them down. If we cancel May too, sumo will be forgotten," he added. Member Mr. Sawamura from Kabuki: "I would like to see at least one of us on the new committee to be established (slated to be made up of 5 inside people, 3 outside people and 5 Oyakata). It doesn't have to be me, as long as we have one of us inside. The Kyokai are having trouble finding any outsider willing to be part of this at present, which is understandable. So at this time, we, as insiders, would like the Kyokai to make use of us.."

I suppose he never accepted the YDC position he was offered last spring so he's not who Sawamura is talking about, but I'd enjoy seeing Mitsuru Yaku on the beefed-up yaocho spotting committee for many, many reasons.