Ms. Uchidate strikes again

[Kintamayama]

YDC member Ms. Uchidate at the YDC meeting today : "When Asashouryuu took the kensho envelopes when he won (all 214 of them, worth 6,420,000 yen-$60,862..), he always used his left hand to do the "cutting"gesture. That is funny. It is customary to do it with the right. It is part of the tradition. It is as if a woman stood on the dohyo in high heals!" Then, she asked Kitanoumi Rjicho to see to it that Asashouryuu do it right, to which he replied with a "bitter smile"..

"On the dohyo, I'm too busy doing stuff like winning, etc. The motion just comes naturally", said the Yokozuna. He is left-handed, BTW.

Takasago Oyakata:" He's used to using his left. I can understand how he feels. But he isn't just any rikishi-he's a Yokozuna, and everyone is watching him".

Rijicho: "His Oyakata has advised him. He probably should follow this advice".

Asashouryuu:" Why NOW??"

In the past , ex -Sekiwake Sakahoko (Terao's brother and current Izutsu Oyakata) was known to do it with the left.

Former Yokozuna Kotozakura (current Sadogatake Oyakata) changed from left to right while he was Ozeki at the behest of his Oyakata back then.

Looks like a new scandal about nothing is brewing again..

Edited March 30, 2004 by Kintamayama

[aderechelsea]

i cannot argue with Asa on that..........

but i also can understand the problems his action causes to "tradition junkies".

yeah......he is not Japanese too. (that is always a problem........ ;-) )

[sekihiryu]

Let me look in the dictionary for some nice descriptive analysis of this Ms Uchidate. Ms because no man could probably stand living with her....

pedantic : Marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects

Self important : Having or showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride. ditto that desribes arrogant

insatiable : Impossible to satiate or satisfy

hypercritical : Inclined to judge too severely

(Hitting with chair...)

Edited March 30, 2004 by sekihiryu

[Hashira]

i said this on the ml, but i think my message got oshidashied, so ill say it again here.

reading the original quote makes it sound very tongue-in-cheek to me.

It is as if a woman stood on the dohyo in high heals

sounds to me as if she is making a reference to the controversy surrounding the Osaka governer, and saying that if tradition can be broken as far as the kensho taking hand goes, then why can tradition not be broken to allow women on the dohyo. That's the way i read it, and it seems like she's making a very good point. If some traditions can be broken, then why not others?

Edited March 30, 2004 by fukunoyama

[Jesinofuji]

I think Ms. Uchidate is an old bag that needs to be taken out with the rest of the trash. Seriously, she has had it in for Asashoryu for too long and is just looking for any excuse to cause him any trouble she can. She needs to be booted from the YDC as she obviously doesn't understand Sumo in the least bit.

[paolo]

Ms. Uchidate is absolutely right ! Asashoryu should choose whether to retire from

Yokozuna or to have his left hand cut away in order to be sure that he can only use his right hand. By the way this might help YDC in their efforts to have a japanese yokozuna....

[Yubiquitoyama]

i said this on the ml, but i think my message got oshidashied, so ill say it again here.

reading the original quote makes it sound very tongue-in-cheek to me.

It is as if a woman stood on the dohyo in high heals

sounds to me as if she is making a reference to the controversy surrounding the Osaka governer, and saying that if tradition can be broken as far as the kensho taking hand goes, then why can tradition not be broken to allow women on the dohyo. That's the way i read it, and it seems like she's making a very good point. If some traditions can be broken, then why not others?

Yes, that interpretation has some merit. It's far from clear-cut though. Ms Uchidate has made some rather peculiar statements before, so this the most benevolent interpretation might not be the correct one...

[Kashunowaka]

Ms. Uchidate is absolutely right ! Asashoryu should choose whether to retire from

Yokozuna or to have his left hand cut away in order to be sure that he can only use his right hand. By the way this might help  YDC in their efforts to have a japanese yokozuna....

Yes, surely the yusho race would be a little more exciting if Asashoryu fought one-armed? An eye patch would be good too.

[Mark Buckton]

Ms. Uchidate is absolutely right ! Asashoryu should choose whether to retire from

Yokozuna or to have his left hand cut away in order to be sure that he can only use his right hand. By the way this might help  YDC in their efforts to have a japanese yokozuna....

Yes, surely the yusho race would be a little more exciting if Asashoryu fought one-armed? An eye patch would be good too.

Interestingly - Shoryu does fight one armed in keiko with Makushita chaps and below.

Always wins funny enough - that I've seen

[Amanogawa]

Here's a post from Abe-san ( aka Toshiyori Masumiriki ) on the Sumo ML.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Sumoans:

Actually, she is not the only one felt "different" from Asashoryu's

"south-paw" style.

I've decided to be more honest than before and I say that even before Ms.

Uchidate mentioned, I felt "different".

It's true.

Sumo is stylized Japanese tradition and I feel very strange if I see a gyoji

holding the gumbai fan in his left hand.

I also feel it is very strange to see if a gyoji facing West, instead of

East, when he is between two rikishi in shikiri motion.

I feel it is very strange to see if Sumo Kyokai decide to put the only

yokozuna in my right hand side and call it East side.

I'm sorry to say that type of things and upset all foreign sumo fans, but

that's my own feeling.

I really felt kind of uneasiness in Asashoryu's left hand grabbing the stack

of envelopes.

That might be because gyoji is holding the fan with his right hand and I

feel natural to receive the envelope(s) from the tip side of the fan,

instead of the gyoji's holding hand side.

For me, it's NOT the issue of descrimination of left hand people.

If you insist that it's actually the descrimination of left hand people, I

feel that you are taking this issue totally wrong.

That's my honest feeling. It's NOT the issue of "right or left", but

actually "right or wrong".

It's the issue of stylized beaty, in my own opinion.

I don't think it's a huge issue, but I felt that it's not right. It does not

sit well with me.

If you ask me my own opinion on the female on the dohyo after the very last

match of hon-basho, I have no problem with it.

Either case, for some reason, Sumo Kyokai conducts Dohyo-Matsuri to purify

and dedicate the dohyo to gods.

I probably feel uneasiness if a female get on the dohyo for any reason,

during the hon-basho tournament before the very last match.

Those are my personal opinion and I won't force anyone to feel the same way

I do.

Toshiyori Masumiriki

-----------------------------------------------------------------

And it's not only Ms. Uchidate or Abe-san. Asashoryu's "cutting" action felt very

uncomfortable to me actually.... no, I never mean to offend anyone, any

Asashoryu fans, but it just felt "different". I gladly admit that Asashoryu

is an amazingly strong yokozuna who's powerful, skillful, and determinded,

who's got that great fire in the belly.. and his "new" sumo has blazed a chance

for sumo.

One thing which is making me a bit annoyed is the fact that Asashoryu

had been doing this "cutting" action with his right hand up to 2002

Hatsu ( at least ), if I remember correctly -- which I assume, that he

knows the right manner but has changed it at one point for some reason..

Asashoryu is not just another rikishi any longer but the official figure.

And people expect yokozuna to be a beautiful role model... and I

expect him so much too. That a rikishi is Japanese or not does not matter

to me actually, for I believe eveyone is equally only a rikishi once he joins

sumo. The point is, that yokozuna should act like yokozuna. That's what

I want to see.

Just my thought. And I don't mean to force anyone to feel the same way

as I do - as Abe-san wrote above. This is our sumo forum where we can

state our thoughts freely, so I just did. Sorry if I sound a bit preachy here.

[Jesinofuji]

This means he's been using his left for over 2 years already. I'm surprised no one has said anything to him until now. Is it conicidence that the one who is bringing this up is Ms. Uchidate. She has it in for Asashoryu. She's the one who complained about his 'behavior' after his last zensho while the other YDC members lauded him on his impressive performance, dispite the fact that his behavior issues seemed to have disappeared. She's just out to get him however she can, and now shes resorting to something as trivial as which hand he takes kensho envalopes from. Hmmm, I wonder what she'll come up with after next basho? Maybe she'll say that he blinks too many times before each match...

[Yoavoshimaru]

Is the right-hand approach only a tradition because a majority of winners (a majority of rikishi, a majority of people) are right-handed? If that's the only reason, then this is a waste of time. If there's another, more reasoned, root to this tradition, then let's hear it. And if she's equating this with the female on the dohyo issue, come out and say that (Laughing...)

[Doitsuyama]

This means he's been using his left for over 2 years already. I'm surprised no one has said anything to him until now.

From whom do you know this? Perhaps it just means that nothing was written in the media about it. For all I know, the whole YDC, Kitanoumi and his Oyakata could have spoken every day for the last two years to him about this. So what do you say to refute this theory?

[paolo]

I think that if it is just "customary", this means that a right handed rikishi will take the envelope with his right because it is natural to him, and the other way around is true for a left handed rikishi, and that's it. In this case it is very hard to believe that this can be a problem whatsoever ! But if the "cutting the air" movement must be performed with the right hand for traditional / religious reasons, then the move with the right hand is part of sumo rituals like raising legs, throwing salt, going to your corner three times and so on, and in that case Asashoryu should get accustomed to use his right hand.

[Doitsuyama]

To say something on this (not so important) matter: I have seen that too, and found it not natural, since accepting the kensho is one of the rituals. How far can one go in changing the rituals of Sumo? Imagine Asashoryu performing the Yokozuna dohyo-iri with left and right switched where it matters. Unimportant? Important? I wouldn't like that...

[Jesinofuji]

This means he's been using his left for over 2 years already.  I'm surprised no one has said anything to him until now.

From whom do you know this? Perhaps it just means that nothing was written in the media about it. For all I know, the whole YDC, Kitanoumi and his Oyakata could have spoken every day for the last two years to him about this. So what do you say to refute this theory?

I got that he had been using his left for 2 years from Amanogawa's post. I assume the point was not made to Asashoryu previously because when he first heard of Ms. Uchidate's comment, he responded with 'Why NOW??' stated in Kintamayama's first post.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Personally I kind of think that if it's done with the right hand it should be done with the right hand, and Asashoryu hasn't given any reason why he should do it differently from everybody else. I don't think this tradition is so extremely old though. It might well have been part of Tokitsukaze-rijicho (ex-Futabayama) standardizing the motions made when accepting kensho money and thanking the gods, which he did during the 1960s.

However, what I am mostly irritated about here is that, as many others have said, the timing is rather peculiar. Even if Ms Uchidate necessarily felt it had to go public (because who knows how long she has tried to point this out quietly), she should reasonably have been able to do it pretty much at any time a couple of weeks or more from now, when it wouldn't take anything away from Asashoryu's performance on the dohyo.

But that's what I think. (Laughing...)

Edited March 30, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Yoavoshimaru]

Unless of course she's on a vendetta against Asashoryu, in which case this timing is great, possibly second only to doing it on day 12/13 of the basho.

[Doyobi]

I wonder: did anyone talk to Asashoryu in private about this? It seems the right way to do it.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

It is a known fact that in Japan left-handedness has been a sort of taboo for a long time and I guess partly still is although in lesser degree. In Mali (Africa) it is VERY impolite to eat with left hand. They eat so that big dish is in the middle and eaters sit around it and everyone takes food out of it using bare right hand (even if it is like mashed potatoes kind of food). The reason why left hand is very much a no-no in this activity is that left hand is reserved for toilet visits and hand hygiene after toilet visits isn't exactly high class always in that culture. Actually I am not 100% sure if it was that way around but in any case hand A is used for eating and hand B for toilets/personal waste product hygiene in general. Whether everyone obeys this rule in personal waste product hygiene is unknown.

I wonder: did anyone talk to Asashoryu in private about this? It seems the right way to do it.

It has been established in the past that Takasago-oyakata doesn't know how to handle his yokozuna. Too many "missunderstandings" with funeral schedules, keiko absence, hair-do stuff etc. Maybe the lack of communication is a problem between Asashoryu and his oyakata? Maybe Takasago is one of these silent type leaders who never say anything and have very hierarchial relationship with his rikishi including the yokozuna. Why doesn't an oyakata invest more effort in his golden star? If he would have good relations with Asashoryu and supportive and guiding attitude, would Asa cause him grey hair so often? Somehow I wonder if Shoryu is being left on his own a bit with these kind of matters. Less orders and reprimanding and more discussion and honest support to the guy. Maybe I am totally off-track.

[Naganoyama]

For all I know, the whole YDC, Kitanoumi and his Oyakata could have spoken every day for the last two years to him about this. So what do you say to refute this theory?

I say that if they have been nagging at Asashoryu for two years about this, then Ms Uchidate would have said that in her statement. Surely she wouldn't have refrained from commenting on such obvious misbehaviour?

[Naganoyama]

Somehow I wonder if Shoryu is being left on his own a bit with these kind of matters. Less orders and reprimanding and more discussion and honest support to the guy. Maybe I am totally off-track.

It must be very difficult, at a young age, to go from being just a sportsman/athlete (which is an easy and natural role for a young person and for which there are role models all over the world) to

- being a sort of 'religious symbol'

- being addressed as Yokozuna

- being constantly deferred to as the most important person

- bathing first, eating first, entering first, leaving first

- having your bottom wiped with the best silk :-P

etc

Suddenly he is expected to know how to behave in every circumstance. I don't think you are off-track at all Kai-san.

[ilovesumo]

traditions......

This story is (Laughing...) ..... If such "Schikanen" will go on,Asashoryu will "retire with a very big scandal"...

They just want to kick him out.....but he is there and he is best-that's it!

[Yoavoshimaru]

It has been established in the past that Takasago-oyakata doesn't know how to handle his yokozuna. Too many "missunderstandings" with funeral schedules, keiko absence, hair-do stuff etc. Maybe the lack of communication is a problem between Asashoryu and his oyakata? Maybe Takasago is one of these silent type leaders who never say anything and have very hierarchial relationship with his rikishi including the yokozuna. Why doesn't an oyakata invest more effort in his golden star?

Hmm. I would say Takasago-oyakata has done a superb job in at least one critical area: teaching his rikishi how to do sumo. Communications mishaps occur.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Hmm. I would say Takasago-oyakata has done a superb job in at least one critical area: teaching his rikishi how to do sumo. Communications mishaps occur

Well, do you think Takasago-oyakata is a big factor in Asashoryu's success? I seriously doubt that. Asashoryu developed himself and especially now as a yokozuna, his oyakata's role is in totally different areas than sumo keiko as such. I wonder when was the last time Takasago-oyakata actually gave Shoryu any advice in keiko? Do you think Asashoryu would be worse rikishi without Takasago-oyakata's efforts whatever they might have been? Shoryu is a natural talent whom nobody has to encourage to train hard. He also had good tools already before entering ozumo and refining his skills with his talent, perservation. keiko madness comes quite automatically etc. These kinds of talents can't be killed in ozumo. They come through on their own. The real work is in guiding lazy rikishi with massive talent and rikishi with bad technical shortcomings in their sumo and perhaps in creating optimal circumstances on personal level ie. supporting rikishi THE WAY that benefits them. For some it can whacking them with a cane 100 times whenever they do bad sumo, for some that can kill all will to do sumo and it doesn't mean they are "soft". For some it can be acknowladgement of improvements, supportive words in right moments etc. There is no one way to approach an athlete. Skill in personal coaching is largely in knowing the athlete and being able to contribute to his success through means suitable to him particularly. Asashoryu may have needed enough foes to head bump and manhandle in keiko and he was happy then and progressed with his own desire to rule ozumo. Good for him.

No football coach can teach to Romario how to play soccer. He knows how to play and doesn't need advice but coach can guide him in other areas of being a star. Same goes for Asashoryu. He needs most guidance in factors outside that actual sumo action. If he is constantly in trouble in various ways and in ways that his oyakata as an experienced Japanese ex-rikishi should be able to guide him at, then "little" communication problems are a big deal.

Ok, Japanese culture is special and teacher-student relationship can without a doubt be very unpersonal. Maybe Chiyonofuji beats the crap out of every deshi because he thinks that is the way to deal with deshi and nobody is an exception except Taikai maybe who might hit back hard, or maybe not? Maybe Takasago-oyakata believes in silent observing and considers advice and support to rikishi waste of time as they learn by doing keiko anyway as well?

I do not understand why some people defend Shoryu's character so much. Do we need a psychology degree to see he is arrogant as hell, likes to punish heya-mates who dare to beat him, is a man who considers him the superstar that can do pretty much whatever he pleases? All reports indicate he is not dumb so why does he do these things like left-handed kensho grapping, pony-tail public wear, suit wearing, mirror breaking, silence to reporters (ok, Takanohana set up a bad example in this) when things go badly, funeral "missunderstandings", uninformed keiko absences which become public due to reporters at scene etc. which all undermine yokozuna as a status? Could the answer be: He couldn't care less. After all he is yokozuna, he is untouchable and does his primary job on the dohyo brilliantly.

He is brilliant as a yokozuna on the dohyo (before the kensho are handed heheh) but outside...

Takasago-oyakata must have alienated him or something, they have bad blood between them or Shoryu is dumb and can't fix his behaviour despite good advice from his oyakata. Combination of "Oyakata guides him well and discusses these matters in constructive manner and Shoryu understands fully and acknowladges his shortcomings in yokozuna demeanor and traditions but yet decides to ignore those and does things his way" is a strange idea but possible I guess. Shoryu isn't dumb either.

Should Kyokai just accept him as he is because he is a yokozuna and good for Kyokai? Strange thought. Send a message : Once you become a brilliant yokozuna, you can be da man and be beyond the traditions or rules just because you are a kick-ass yokozuna!!! Why can't he be critizised STRONGLY even after two zensho yusho? Uchidate may go overboard and Shoryu may be disliked also because of his origin but still, yokozuna should really be a role model and hence he is in the spotlight all the time. He doesn't need to given a break if he doesn't deserve it.

He may have improved lately a lot. That is good.