Yokozuna promotion rules relaxed

[Gaijinohana]

Quoted from MDN Sumo page:

...by being rewarded by the Japan Sumo Association's decision to once again relax the rules for promotion to Yokozuna in a desperate effort to elevate a Japanese grappler to the ancient sport's zenith. The ozeki pair will need to notch only identical records in the May Grand Sumo Tournament to almost guarantee elevation to Yokozuna regardless of whether they win the tourney.

This is so pathetic. I can't believe that they are so desperate to get one of these two choke artists (Kaio/Chiyo) promoted to Yokozuna.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Quoted from MDN Sumo page:

...by being rewarded by the Japan Sumo Association's decision to once again relax the rules for promotion to Yokozuna in a desperate effort to elevate a Japanese grappler to the ancient sport's zenith. The ozeki pair will need to notch only identical records in the May Grand Sumo Tournament to almost guarantee elevation to Yokozuna regardless of whether they win the tourney.

This is so pathetic. I can't believe that they are so desperate to get one of these two choke artists (Kaio/Chiyo) promoted to Yokozuna.

I can't say that it is obvious to me from what I have read of Kitanoumi's various comments that Kaio or Chiyotaikai would be "almost guaranteed" promotion with similar records again. In fact, Kitanoumi pretty much said that at least a better record, that is 14-1 or so, plus more obvious "power sumo" would be needed for promotion. It's not even obvious the new promotion criteria are particularly more lenient than the old ones. Just that they are more based on number of wins and subjective judgment of the actual sumo performed than whether the wins resulted in yusho or not. Kitanoumi has said similar things before, so it's hardly any surprise, although he will no doubt change his mind many times before the end of the next basho comes. It's hardly obvious that he is "desperate" for a new Japanese Yokozuna, despite the fact logic tells us he probably is.

And for that matter: If they choke, they don't get promoted, so then it won't matter anyway. (Applauding...)

Edited March 28, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Tenkashoryu]

Yes, indeed. I feel the same way you feel. (Applauding...)

On the other hand, I feel really bad for japanese that nowadays they are becoming incapable of gaining yokozuna status in a normal way it used to be. What if any of these two becomes yokozuna in next basho with 13 wins and "without yusho". This is gonna be just pathetic that u gonna have yokozuna born not from yusho. (Censored)

[Zentoryu]

Never take anything Kitanoumi says at face value. This guy has already jumped the fence on this issue, and it took him less than 24 hours to do so. (Applauding...)

[Tumppi]

This is so pathetic. I can't believe that they are so desperate to get one of these two choke artists (Kaio/Chiyo) promoted to Yokozuna.

You're clearly a Takasago-/Asa*- fan. I wish you'd show some respect to others as well.

And Kintamayama just posted a thread about this.

[Tumppi]

Yes, indeed. I feel the same way you feel.

Edited March 28, 2004 by Tumppi

[aderechelsea]

edit: If you remember, almost every Ozeki and Yokozuna was absent when Asashoryu was promoted, would you call that pathetic? Shoryu has proved his Yokozunaness since then, but if you didn't find that "pathetic" at that time I'm surprised.

The lack of great competition back then was not his fault......

he DID get the Yushos that ensured his promotion.

The case nowadays is that the Yokozuna candidates cannot get a yusho and then have a solid performance next basho.Thats entirely their fault.........

they have to beat ONLY one man and none of them can do it.They deserve their eternal Ozekiness.......

and frankly the only one that could possibly become Yokozuna and have a good career after that is Taikai.But he lacks the consistency that is needed.....

[Gaijinohana]

Chiyo and Kaio had the same environment of 'weakness' to excel in like Asa did meaning that they were competing at the time when Taka was out and the Moose was either out or weakened too. The difference is that Asa took the opportunity and became Yokozuna. Those two didn't. They make good Ozeki in the sense that they aren't quite good enough to make it to the very top, but they are good enough to keep most people below them from winning too.

I am not a Takasago fan in particular, but I am very impressed with Asa's dominance lately. His sumo has been great at times, but he has also been pushed to the edge a couple times and still won. He has been awesome to watch. Like this whole past tournament. What a blast to tune into every night.

[Zuikakuyama]

This yusho promotional requirement, if I understand the situtation correctly, is actually relatively recent (in the last 15 years). They can always decide to go back to the old ways.

Prior to that, I belive lots of yokozuna were promoted without winning 2 straight clean yushos. Someone can probably paste up the yusho-, jun-yusho charts of the actual promotions, but guys like onokumi, hokutoumi, futahaguro!!, and even chiyonofuji and kitanoumi, were not promoted on 2 yushos but on 13-2 or even 12-3 records.

[QttP]

I would NOT be happy to see Chiyotaikai get promoted to yokozuna even with a 14-1 jun-yusho next time. Then again, 14-1 next time will guarantee yusho, so...

It may seem strange to promote an ozeki to yokozuna after a non-yusho performance, but there is also the fact that Chiyotaikai has already won 3 yusho and Kaio has won 4. So at least their ability to win some yusho is unquestioned. Certain yokozuna in history have won less than that, and Asashoryu at the time of his promotion only had two, so what if they came in a row? Some may say it's a crucial factor, others may claim it's unimportant.

You never know what you're gonna get when you promote someone. Chiyotaikai was promoted to ozeki following a playoff yusho against Wakanohana. Afterwards it took him a long time to finally start showing ozeki level of sumo consistently. If he hadn't been promoted then, who's to say how long it would have taken him? How it would have affected him? Asashoryu was promoted in a streak of two of the weakest basho in terms of highest level competition. Afterwards he has more than proven worthy of the rank. What would have happened to him if he hadn't been promoted at that time? We can speculate, but we can't know for sure.

Bottom line, for me, as a Taikai fan, is that I want to see him win. Promotion will come if he keeps on winning. This basho I've seen progress - for the first time in his career he has beaten everyone, except his two toughest opponents, Kaio and Asashoryu. He made them unbeatable for himself, now he must make them beatable again. If he can, he'll get where he's heading to.

[Naganoyama]

This does seem like a sort of scam to get a Japanese Yokozuna. What is the likelihood that neither Kaio nor Chiyotaikai gets at least Jun-Yusho and 13 wins next time? Reasonably low I would say. The NSK can't make a Yokozuna promotion for a Japanese Ozeki a dead cert but they can try and improve their chances.

Also making the criteria a bit more woolly allows them to decide what they want rather than allowing it to be an automatic Yes/No. Are they trying to pull back a bit of power from the Yokoshin?

[Doitsuyama]

This does seem like a sort of scam to get a Japanese Yokozuna. What is the likelihood that neither Kaio nor Chiyotaikai gets at least Jun-Yusho and 13 wins next time? Reasonably low I would say. The NSK can't make a Yokozuna promotion for a Japanese Ozeki a dead cert but they can try and improve their chances.

Also making the criteria a bit more woolly allows them to decide what they want rather than allowing it to be an automatic Yes/No. Are they trying to pull back a bit of power from the Yokoshin?

Do I understand you saying that it is rather "normal" or "expected" that Kaiō or Chiyotaikai finishes 13-2? Go, do your homework then, and look how often they had a 13-2 in the last two years... I bet it's been less than 50%. B-)

I agree though that a 13-2 finish most likely means a jun-yūshō, but it already did this basho. And didn't Kitanoumi say it has to be something better in Haru even if it isn't the yūshō? So another 13-2 jun-yūshō wouldn't be enough or?

[Naganoyama]

Perhaps what I said was not very clear. I wasn't trying to imply that it was definite or hugely likely that either Kaio or Chiyotaikai was going to get 13+ wins with the level of power or whatever that Kitanoumi wants. I was only trying to say that if both rikishi were in the promotion race at the same time, given that they are the strongest Ozeki most of the time (no disrespect to Tochiazuma), it seems that the odds are improved that one of them can make the grade.

Kitanoumi seems on the face of it to be trying to encourage them. (Although perhaps one needs to treat his statements with caution).

(Incidentally, I had done my homework and was well aware that the two rikishi betwwen them have less than a handful of 13+ win basho since January 2002. B-) . Your 50% figure was, as you know, generous in the extreme!)

[Yoavoshimaru]

I would NOT be happy to see Chiyotaikai get promoted to yokozuna even with a 14-1 jun-yusho next time. Then again, 14-1 next time will guarantee yusho, so...

So you don't think another zensho yusho can happen next time, QttP-zeki? B-)

[Jesinofuji]

Firstly, I don't think this is a scam to get a Japanese Yokozuna. The same Kitanoumi once suggested that a 12-3 yusho by Kaio was not enough to start a Yokozuna run. He did later say that a zensho might be enough to earn it. He also suggested Chiyotaikai be a Yokozuna candidate after he went 13-2 and lost in a playoff to Azuma. Takanohana was still active then, so it doesn't look to me like the fact that the only Yokozuna is foreign is the reason that Kaio and Taikai are being considered in Natsu. 13-2 yushos are common. Its not Kaio or Taikai's fault that Asashoryu went 15-0. They only had one match vs. him each. IMHO if either could pull off 13+ wins again, they'd be deserving of the tsuna.

And no, Chiyo going 14-1 won't guarentee yusho. Asashoryu will get another zensho. And even if he doesn't Asa going 14-1 would be no anomaly.

[Yoavoshimaru]

Its not Kaio or Taikai's fault that Asashoryu went 15-0

Say what? Of course it's their fault, 1/15 each. Each rikishi Asashoryu defeated has a 1/15 part in his 15-0 record by definition. If Kaio and Chiyo beat Asashoryu, then we have a different basho.

[Jesinofuji]

Its not Kaio or Taikai's fault that Asashoryu went 15-0

Say what? Of course it's their fault, 1/15 each. Each rikishi Asashoryu defeated has a 1/15 part in his 15-0 record by definition. If Kaio and Chiyo beat Asashoryu, then we have a different basho.

My point is that Asashoryu had an extremely successful basho. And I don't think Asashoryu's success should be held against Kaio and Taikai. Dispite losing to him, they both still went 13-1 in the rest of their matches. If you just look as the jun-yusho Ozeki, and their matches alone, not taking into consideration the records of other rikishi, it looks to me like a yokozuna worthy performance.

Kitanoumi said that a 13-2 non-yusho might even be better than a 12-3 yusho. I think so too, because 13-2 is a better performance than 12-3. A 12-3 yusho would just be a case of good luck that no one else happened to perform well that basho, and not an exceptional performance by an Ozeki.

[QttP]

I would NOT be happy to see Chiyotaikai get promoted to yokozuna even with a 14-1 jun-yusho next time. Then again, 14-1 next time will guarantee yusho, so...

So you don't think another zensho yusho can happen next time, QttP-zeki? (Laughing...)

Well, strictly speaking, my comment means is that I don't expect to see two or more guys with 14-1 or better. This time it almost happened, but it's generally pretty rare.

A Kokkai zensho yusho? Why not?

[Gaijinohana]

I don't think that the biggest issue is whether or not Chiyo and Kaio are good rikishi, but whether or not they have the consistency that a Yokozuna is expected to display. Asa seems to get better every basho. Even between the last tournament and this one he seems to have grown. He seemed more at ease and more in control in his wins this time although in some it seemed a bit of luck was on his side like when Chiyo had the upper hand initially. I think that it's the Ozeki pair's lack of consistency that would seem to not warrant them making Yokozuna even if they had a losing 14-1 record next basho. And all this talk about what a 13-2 non-yusho means compared to a 12-3 yusho is moot. These two have had their chances and have shared the same competitive/non-competitive environment as everyone else. They just don't get it done on a regular basis and haven't seemed to have grown much skill-wise. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Chiyo is not a Yokozuna and that a common complaint about him is that he is one-dimensional in his style. For instance, Asa used to rely a lot of leg trips and a bit of trickery, while now he seems to combine more power and speed in with technique.

[Naganoyama]

He seemed more at ease and more in control in his wins this time although in some it seemed a bit of luck was on his side like when Chiyo had the upper hand initially.

I don't think it was purely luck (although luck certainly played a part). Watching Asashoryu's bouts from this basho, there were quite a few (in contrast to the Hatsu Basho) in which his aite was able to make the first attacking move and in some cases move Asashoryu right back towards the tawara.

Somehow he looks like he has lots of time, as if the other rikishi is operating in slow-motion. He is definitely able to "think on his feet" (i.e. work out what to do in real-time).

For me, he developed as much during this basho as he did in the last. It is quite a test of character to come through in such style when not on the same sparkling form he displayed in Hatsu Basho. Hatsu looked easy. This was in some ways more impressive.

Sorry, I see that I have moved off the topic.

[Zentoryu]

I agree, his reaction time is so incredibly phenomenal. Last basho was pure domination, this basho was more of a showcase of his vast skills. Where most rikishi have only one or two weapons, Shoryu seems to have 5 or 6 or 7. Add his killer speed to the mix and he is one tough rikishi to beat, even when you have him on the edge.