Why foreigners do well in sumo?

[Asashosakari]

It is fairly true

Edited May 28, 2004 by Asashosakari

[AOZORA]

Only the 100 or so who joined Ozumo during the last three basho and have made 2004 the most successful year for new applications in years, even without counting the foreign applicants. You appear to be about 2 years too late with your "the sky is falling" assertion...

(Licking lips...) True. there was little improvement in this year's recruit. BUT, it means nothing good about sumo's popularism. See the empty seats in every basho, and see who are buying these seats. All grandmas and grandfas. After their time is gone, there will be no one to watch sumo in Japan. Believe me, 98% of young Japanese have no interest in sumo and don't think they would have when they getting old.

If you say those young Japanese that you are fan of sumo, most probably they will laugh at you. Sadly, this is the fact.

You may want to note that there are quite a few foreigners who are ranked in the lower divisions. Not everyone is Asashoryu or Kotooshu or Tokitenku.

Unless you're meaning to say that getting into Ozumo is less risky for foreigners than it is for Japanese? That would seem a rather puzzling statement to me.

I mean it is more risky for Japanese to become sumotori than foreigners do. Be realistic!

Averege Japanese can gain enough money from being employed anywhere in Japan. And this is almost equal or more than average sekitori's gaining in total. I mean as a total!! Sekitori, of course will be paid more than average salaryman, but it is for very short time. There is of course some pension after they intai, but in other side salaryman can get every year increasing salary until they get retired.

So in total, way of slaryman or blue-collar worker is less risky even than becoming sekitori. Not saying even sumotori!!.

But see foreigners. Most of the foreign sumotoris are from developing country, Mongolia, Georgia, Russia, Bulgaria, China, Korea, Argentina and Tonga where average income is much less than Japanese. Is there any sekitori from developed countries, except US???. Think WHY?

Even though, these foreigners fail to become sekitori, at least they learn some Japanese, its culture and get contacts here.

Now think who is in (In a state of confusion...) bigger risk.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Asashoryu1

[Lucius Flavonius]

[Moderator mode]

Lucius, you have come dangerously close to breaking one of Forum rules, insulting a member becuase of his/hers nationality. Please, refrain from such outbursts in the future, or at least substantiate them with some fact.

Thank you.

[/Moderator mode]

I bring my apologies to moderators and members of the forum.

I didn't mean any insult based on nationality. It was just a remark.

My recent post was grounded on the fact that Mongolians like to exaggerate a bit. I am deeply sorry that my remark caused this negative response.

[Mark Buckton]

My recent post was grounded on the fact that Mongolians like to exaggerate a bit.

Grounded on the fact (Enjoying a beer...)

Show me the fact and tell me how many Mongolians do you actually know LF? :-/

May be your opinion but that hardly makes it a fact - and the error on your part (of including the fact comment in an apology) - whasatabout? Can't hesitate in trying to have a dig? (Sign of disapproval)

Presumably these 'facts' are also acceptable for yourself:

All Brits drink tea, speak the queen's English and wear bowler hats.

All Americans eat hamburgers whilst watching baseball.

All Germans wear the traditional style of clothing (whose name I have just forgotten) whilst swigging beer by the bucket load. :-) - not that that is a bad thing.

All Japanese wear kimonos and the men swords too.

Stereotypes these are. Stupid they are indeed. Facts they are not. And all but the most unintelligent of folks around the planet know this.

Let us know your nationality so we can make the same 'factually' ignorant assumptions about you.

[BuBa]

Hmm.. Let me guess. Oh you are my fellow Mongolian, aren't you?

[Asashosakari]

(Licking lips...)

Edited May 29, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Zuikakuyama]

Asashosakari, your statements regarding the popularity of sumo, frankly surprised me.

I remember we just had a discussion thread earlier this month where everyone here put their heads together to try to think of ways of increasing sumo's popularity. Unless everyone there was working under a mistaken assumption,

In my mind, Kensho are not really indicative of the popularity of sumo. Attendance and TV viewership are (does anyone have data on NHK rating viewerships?). Kenshos are so cheap to buy and it may just be the case that advertisers are just waking up to its cost-effectiveness.

If attendance (and possibly viewership) are really down, then it is a cause for concern. Just because in the past sumo has bounced back from a bad spell does not mean that it will do so again. We are in a totally different environment now, and there are just much more sports choices out there now compared to 20 30 years ago (plus alternatives such as surfing the net, etc. other modern distractions not present in the past).

Now regarding foreign sumotories, I believe there is a lower risk for them to join sumo compared to staying in their own country, and a lower risk compared to Japanese recruits. Just because there is a 1 foreigner per heya rule means that coaches are going to be much more choosy on who that 1 foreigner is. There is already a stamp of approval that physically you have what it takes to make it to the top ranks and earn fame and fortune for your heya. So from the start, if you are recruited, then you will have a better than average chance (compared to native Japanese) of making the sekitori ranks.

[Asashosakari]

I remember we just had a discussion thread earlier this month where everyone here put their heads together to try to think of ways of increasing sumo's popularity.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Asashosakari

[AOZORA]

I'm not dismissing that; just the notion that doom saying is the correct answer right now, when things have actually started to improve already.

Just to make it short, come to Japan and try to spend at least a year and you will understand the real situation.

Only a little improvement in shin-deshi in one year and increase in cheap kenshos cannot be real signs of improvement at all. (Enjoying a beer...)

If new recruitment is increasing constantly for at least 2 consecutive years, OK I understand what you are trying to say.

About growth in cheap kenshos paid by again grandfa shachos, believe me it is just one result of Kyokai's short sighted policies.

I don't wanna be dessimistic, and not saying that there are no chances for sumo's revival. Unfortunately, if everything continues like this, there is ????

Regarding foreigners dominance in sumo, definately one reason is that tousands of Japanese young talents and hidden-capabilities don't want to enter to sumo world.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Asashoryu1

[Zuikakuyama]

Kensho have been around for what, decades? And their price hasn't changed in quite a while, either. So that must mean advertising agencies were either asleep at the wheel for too long to still be in business, or "cost-effectiveness" must have improved recently. I wonder why that would be?

Making a totally wild guess, I would say that the tight budgetary situation make Kensho advertising more effective than a big TV campaign or sports sponsorships. Perhaps now that the sumo audience is so uniform (ie., 50 or over), they form a more targeted demographic graphic, so those advertisers that want to reach that target audience (that rich, affluent segment of society), would find it more cost effective than the typical wide-footprint advertising campaign.

Will sumo ever get back to 60+% TV ratings? I doubt it. Will sumo ever get back to be Japan's most popular sport? I doubt that, too. Doesn't matter though, unless the fact that sumo's next boom probably won't be as big as its previous booms is already reason in itself to proclaim sumo a failure. I don't agree with that.

If there is indeed a real small upward trend at this point, then that is a positive sign. But a short upward tick this year, if there is one, does not reverse the general trend. I think we can agree that sumo is on a general downward trend. The question is whether the general trend continues at an alarming level, and only time will tell. And I am not entirely convinced that we can reverse the trend without doing some different.

Does that mean the average foreigner who would want to join Ozumo if there was no pre-selection has a lower risk? I don't see it.

If the emphasis is on "WANT" then I agree that you are right. But to me that is all rather academic, and does not come to the heart of the question. I really dont care whether there is a generally more foreigner who WANT to enter sumo. The real question, to my mind, is whether the foreigners actually WANTED by the heyas find life in Japan less risky, since in the end it is only those that are WANTED gets to come to Japan. So it is necessary to compare apples and oranges, as you put it, since that is the practical effect.

Treating strong foreign deshi as though Ozumo is their only avenue out of assured poverty would be rather condescending to them, IMHO. I know you didn't do that; I'm just extrapolating the argument that the current crop of foreign deshi faced some big risk by staying home, and managed to reduce it by going to Japan.

People are rational beings, and they would want to act in their own best interest. So I would guess that these foreign rikishi indeed sees more chance for them to attain fame and fortune in Japan compared to life back home. But of course I am not discounting that there are some that simply want an adventurous life, and would be predisposed to want to live in foreign countries, and not weigh the financial aspects so heavily. But I think in general, they do believe that life in Japan is going to be better.

[Zentoryu]

In my mind, Kensho are not really indicative of the popularity of sumo. Attendance and TV viewership are (does anyone have data on NHK rating viewerships?).

I don't have any hard data in front of me but TV viewership is up, not way up, but it has risen from the lows that were experienced in 2001-2002. They have gone up steadily for the last year and a half (at least according to a post by Joe Kuroda to the SML a while back).

Oddly enough the spike in viewership has corresponded with the rise, and somewhat controversial nature, of Asashoryu.

While the number of deshi entering the sport has indeed risen for the better part of last two years (certainly in comparison to 2000-2002), I do agree that, for the moment, there is not much appeal in entering this sport for the common Japanese youth.