Leaderboard (2004 Haru Day 14)

[Naganoyama]

In case this has not been done elsewhere:

How may tsunadori will there be in Natsu Basho?

- Asashoryu beats Chiyotaikai

- Asasekiryu beats Wakanosato

- None?

- Wakanosato beats Asasekiryu

- Chiyotaikai beats Asashoryu and wins play-off

- One?

- Asashoryu beats Chiyotaikai

- Wakanosato beats Asasekiryu

- Kaio beats Musoyama

- Two?

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After day 14, March 2004, Makuuchi division scores are:
Wins	Rikishi	Shikona
14	1	Asashoryu
13	2	Chiyotaikai, Asasekiryu
12	1	Kaio
11	0	-
10	1	Kotonowaka
9	4	Musoyama, Kyokutenho, Hokutoriki, Kaiho
8	6	Miyabiyama, Buyuzan, Kokkai, Takekaze, Toki, Harunoyama
7	8	Wakanosato, Dejima, Tochinonada, Tokitsuumi, Iwakiyama, Takamisakari, Kotoryu, Ushiomaru
6	6	Kotomitsuki, Shimotori, Tochisakae, Futeno, Toyozakura, Yotsukasa
5	4	Kakizoe, Tamanoshima, Takanonami, Asanowaka
4	5	Kyokushuzan, Tosanoumi, Jumonji, Kinkaiyama, Kasuganishiki
3	1	Chiyotenzan
2	2	Aminishiki, Wakanoyama
1	0	-
0	0	-

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After day 14, March 2004, Juryo division scores are:
Wins	Rikishi	Shikona
14	0	-
13	0	-
12	0	-
11	2	Hayateumi, Hakuho
10	0	-
9	4	Takanowaka, Kasugao, Ama, Bushuyama
8	5	Kobo, Kaido, Kitazakura, Takanotsuru, Sumanofuji
7	5	Otsukasa, Tamakasuga, Wakatoba, Gojoro, Tokitenku
6	6	Oikari, Roho, Tamarikido, Hamanishiki, Dewanofuji, Wakakosho
5	2	Daimanazuru, Ichinotani
4	0	-
3	2	Juzan, Masutsuyoshi
2	0	-
1	0	-
0	0	-

< Edited March 27, 2004 by Naganoyama

[Kashunowaka]

In case this has not been done elsewhere:

How may tsunadori will there be in Natsu Basho?

-    Asashoryu beats Chiyotaikai

-    Asasekiryu beats Wakanosato

-        None?

-    Wakanosato beats Asasekiryu

-    Chiyotaikai beats Asashoryu and wins play-off

-        One?

-    Asashoryu beats Chiyotaikai

-    Wakanosato beats Asasekiryu

-        Two?

Tsunatori?

My feeling is that Kaio has no chance of becoming a yokozuna candidate now, even with a 13-2 jun-yusho. He fell from the yusho race too early, and can at best reach a joint jun-yusho two wins behind the winner.

Chiyotaikai loss tomorrow would also mean two wins less than the yusho winner, and I don't think that's good enough. He needs to win against Asashoryu. Playoff win or not, 14-1 would definitely be good enough to be considered a candidate.

[Jesinofuji]

How about if a 13-2 Kaio or Chiyotaikai cranked out a zensho in July? That would have to send the YDC to a meeting.

[Asashosakari]

How about if a 13-2 Kaio or Chiyotaikai cranked out a zensho in July? That would have to send the YDC to a meeting.

In May, you mean? If the 13-2 is a jun-yusho behind a zensho Asashoryu, perhaps...if it's just a third-place finish behind the two Asa's, I doubt it.

[Kintamayama]

How may tsunadori will there be in Natsu Basho?

Straight from the horse's mouth:

"If Chiyotaikai and KaioU (providing he gets his 13th tomorrow) will have better records next basho, the chances of a Yokozuna promotion are very good. Yusho is not a prerequisite", said Kitanoumi Rijicho. The YDC's current standard is consecutive Yusho, or" corresponding results". He even went further to suggest that a 13-2 record is better than a 12-3 yusho, since it is "closer to a zensho", as he put it.

Hmm..

Edited March 27, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Tumppi]

How may tsunadori will there be in Natsu Basho?

Straight from the horse's mouth:

"If Chiyotaikai and KaioU (providing he gets his 13th tomorrow) will have better records next basho, the chances of a Yokozuna promotion are very good. Yusho is not a prerequisite", said Kitanoumi Rijicho. The YDC's current standard is consecutive Yusho, or" corresponding results". He even went further to suggest that a 13-2 record is better than a 12-3 yusho, since it is "closer to a zensho", as he put it.

Hmm..

Hooray!!!! Go Ozekis!!! That's unusual by Kitanoumi.. He usually slaps everyone down to the ground by his Yokozuna statements.

[Asashosakari]

Hooray!!!! Go Ozekis!!! That's unusual by Kitanoumi.. He usually slaps everyone down to the ground by his Yokozuna statements.

Wait until late April when he'll sing a different tune... At this point I can't get myself to care much about what Kitanoumi says, considering his habit of "clarifying" his own statements later.

[Jesinofuji]

How about if a 13-2 Kaio or Chiyotaikai cranked out a zensho in July?  That would have to send the YDC to a meeting.

In May, you mean? If the 13-2 is a jun-yusho behind a zensho Asashoryu, perhaps...if it's just a third-place finish behind the two Asa's, I doubt it.

(Oops! )

Ummm, yeah, May comes after April thats right...

However, I think that 13-2 will do it regardless of the outcome of the Asasekiryu-Wakanosato match. Here's why:

First, the results of the rikishi in question (Taikai or Kaio) should be the determining factor, the results of other rikishi (Sekiryu in this case) shouldn't matter. I don't think whether Kaio or Taikai are considered for Yokozuna promotion should be left to Wakanosato...

Second, Rijicho of late seems to have made a point of 13 wins being the requirement, regardless of yusho...as Kintamayama has stated above. I don't think the YDC will ignore his opinion.

Third, there are elements of Japanese society, conservative middle-aged people in particular men and women in particular, who both want to see a Japanese Yokozuna, and are especially unhappy with Asashoryu's rapidly improving, but still well remembered, lack of 'hinkaku'. They will be expecting tsunadori after hearing Rijicho's encourageing words and all. Pressure from many of these people will undoubtedly be placed on YDC in the case of a 13-2 followed by another spectacular result.

Fourth, Kaio already has 4 Yusho, no Ozeki has ever won this many without being eventually promoted to Yokozuna. I don't think many people would consider Kaio to be unworthy of the rank (Icertainly wouldn't) even if it does shorten his injury plagued career. Taikai would also have 4 Yusho if he won in Natsu. 4 Yusho is pretty impressive.

So I think Chiyotaikai will be a candidate no matter what happens tomorrow, Kaio however is going to have to...

*Jesinofuji glances at the torikumi chart*

(In a state of confusion...) wait nevermind, Kaio too.

Edited March 27, 2004 by Jesinofuji

[Naganoyama]

Wait until late April when he'll sing a different tune... At this point I can't get myself to care much about what Kitanoumi says, considering his habit of "clarifying" his own statements later.

I seem to remember just such a clarification when Asashoryu was tsunadori. Kitanoumi said that a Yusho with 13 wins would be sufficient. When Shoryu stood at 13-1, Kitanoumi then said that 14 wins would secure it.

(In a state of confusion...)

Edit: fixed the broken quote (Write 300 times: Never edit after you preview. Never edit after you preview...)

Edited March 27, 2004 by Naganoyama

[Asashosakari]

First, the results of the rikishi in question (Taikai or Kaio) should be the determining factor, the results of other rikishi (Sekiryu in this case) shouldn't matter.  I don't think whether Kaio or Taikai are considered for Yokozuna promotion should be left to Wakanosato...

Oh, I definitely agree that it should be handled that way, I just don't think it will be. Ever since the Konishiki matter (remember, the basho between his two yusho was a third place finish), it's been sort-of established by common practice that only a jun-yusho is a yusho equivalent score, no matter the number of wins.

I don't necessarily like it either, and if they're going to use this opportunity to change their handling of it, great, but I'm not too optimistic about it...

Second, Rijicho of late seems to have made a point of 13 wins being the requirement, regardless of yusho...as Kintamayama has stated above.  I don't think the YDC will ignore his opinion.

Rijicho will most likely ignore his own opinion before Natsu basho starts. (In a state of confusion...)

Third, there are elements of Japanese society, conservative middle-aged people in particular men and women in particular, who both want to see a Japanese Yokozuna, and are especially unhappy with Asashoryu's rapidly improving, but still well remembered, lack of 'hinkaku'.  They will be expecting tsunadori after hearing Rijicho's encourageing words and all.  Pressure from many of these people will undoubtedly be placed on YDC in the case of a 13-2 followed by another spectacular result.

I agree, public pressure could well be the biggest deciding factor here. (Especially since I think people are catching on right about now that there are even more talented foreigners coming to the upper ranks soon...Kokkai, Hakuho, Kotooshu, ...) There might be pressure to seize the chance of a Japanese Yokozuna while it presents itself.

However, two points...

Fourth, Kaio already has 4 Yusho, no Ozeki has ever won this many without being eventually promoted to Yokozuna.  I don't think many people would consider Kaio to be unworthy of the rank (Icertainly wouldn't) even if it does shorten his injury plagued career.

But I can already see the potential comments a few years from now, comparing him to Wakanohana. You know, "great Ozeki, mediocre Yokozuna", due to their injuries. I'd love to see a Yokozuna Kaio (and I wouldn't mind a Yokozuna Chiyotaikai either), but I can't help but wonder what a promotion would do to the perception of his career. Still, he'd have been a Yokozuna which is something special in its own right, and that will probably trump those worries for me, as well as many other people. :-)

The other thing is...if the promotion rules for Kaio and Taikai are perceived to be less strict than what other recent Yokozuna (especially Maru and Asashoryu as they're foreigners) had to put up with, could this lead to a perception that they weren't really worthy of being up there? This isn't a rhetorical question...I genuinely have no idea what the Japanese public might think about it in the long run, so if somebody cares to speculate, please do. (Applauding...)

[Yubiquitoyama]

First, the results of the rikishi in question (Taikai or Kaio) should be the determining factor, the results of other rikishi (Sekiryu in this case) shouldn't matter.

Edited March 27, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Asashosakari]

I disagree somewhat on that interpretation of NSK Yokozuna promotion policy of late. Ever since the Futahaguro scandal, although more expressively in the beginning, only a YUSHO has been considered yusho equivalent as far as I can see.

Well, there was that 13-2 playoff between Tochiazuma and Chiyotaikai two years ago, which resulted in both of them being considered for a tsuna. Whether the Kyokai and the YDC actually would have followed through with it if Taikai had won the following basho is a different question of course. Since he went 7-8, they weren't forced to stick to their word.

At any rate, in light of that, perhaps Kitanoumi's recent insistence on 13 wins instead of yusho/jun-yusho is just the logical extension of a process that's been going on for a few years (emphasizing wins over titles), and it just wasn't really noticeable until now... (In a state of confusion...)

Edit: Did I really just write that there might be logic to be found in Kitanoumi's statements?

Edited March 27, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Yubiquitoyama]

I disagree somewhat on that interpretation of NSK Yokozuna promotion policy of late. Ever since the Futahaguro scandal, although more expressively in the beginning, only a YUSHO has been considered yusho equivalent as far as I can see.

Well, there was that 13-2 playoff between Tochiazuma and Chiyotaikai two years ago, which resulted in both of them being considered for a tsuna. Whether the Kyokai and the YDC actually would have followed through with it if Taikai had won the following basho is a different question of course. Since he went 7-8, they weren't forced to stick to their word.

At any rate, in light of that, perhaps Kitanoumi's recent insistence on 13 wins instead of yusho/jun-yusho is just the logical extension of a process that's been going on for a few years (emphasizing wins over titles), and it just wasn't really noticeable until now... (In a state of confusion...)

Yes, that's about the way I have interpreted it. At first I just thought it was Kitanoumi being somewhat strange, but it more and more looks as if it is something of a change in direction regarding Yokozuna promotions. 13 wins could get really important in the future. :-)

[Kashunowaka]

Is it tsunadori or tsunatori, or both?

[Kintamayama]

The way I interpret it ("If they get a BETTER score next Basho"), Kitanoumi wants Chiyotaikai and KaioU to follow up their 13-2 (if that happens) with a 14-1 at least.. Tall, tall order, considering the fact that Chiyotaikai has only been 14-1 once so far in his Sekitori career, and KaioU also, at the rank of Komusubi 4 years ago, and neither has ever zensho-ed. So if anyone thought this is some kind of leniency, I suggest he think again..

And as far as I know, it's Tsunatori-"The taking of the tsuna."

Edited March 27, 2004 by Kintamayama