What is wrong with Asashoryu ?

[paolo]

Even if he has no losses, Asashoryu is very far from being the one that we saw in January. He has problems with virtually all his opponents, he is pushed backwards a lot of times, he starts a lot of moves that he does not manage to complete, he had to use three or four different moves in every bout in order to win because the first ones did not succeed. Even today he could not give problems to a weak Aminishiki, and it was Aminishiki who started the final move: Asashoryu used all

his strength to resist, but he was lucky not to fall down the first.... What is going on ? And then if we suppose that Asasekiryu should lose to the Ozekis and consider that Chiyotaikai is fighting a strange kind of sumo that is not his normal one (has he got some physical problems ?) we could think that Kaio is the only one that is really consistent and should win (maybe with a zensho yusho ...). What do you think ?

[QttP]

There's nothing wrong with Asashoryu. It's impossible to always be as dominant as he was last basho.

[aderechelsea]

There's nothing wrong with Asashoryu. It's impossible to always be as dominant as he was last basho.

exactly.....

i think it shows great mentality and skill that you can win bouts even when you are not in top form.Asa is not as dominating as in Hatsu but it is normal.He is constantly compared to his self when he got the zensho-yusho and you know it is a tough comparison.......

After all Haru basho was never his good one.....

At least he is not pulling down his opponents like some other high ranked rikishi......... (Holiday feeling...) (i don't want to hear complaints for Kyokushuzan ever again.....)

[Zuikakuyama]

He looked rather bad today against the aminishki, who is not exactly known for his strength. He almost lost via a shitatenage at the edge.

I would think it is his heavily bandaged left arm that is bothering him.

[Kintamayama]

RANT!!!!!!!

What's all this? He's winning, right? Regardless of an elbow injury or not-he's winning. And what's this "we are not satisfied by Chiyotaiki's Sumo"? What are we, suddenly Oyakatas? Rijicho? HE'S 9-0 for crying out loud!! Who cares if he pulls or pushes or what he has for breakfast?? Or would you rather all see him lose , but do great, offensive Sumo?? The goal, ultimately, is to win. and he's winning, unless I've missed something here. And he's looking good. He's looking calmer than Asa. He's disposing his opponents quicker than Asa.He is luckier than most. So what!!He's hanging in their on a leg he couldn't stand on just two weeks ago!!

Asa himself is constantly saying he is worried and not 100%..you can see the elbow is heavilly taped. He's a warrior, as is Chiyo, and as is KaioU, who at 31 with a chronic lumbago, a ruined tail bone and who knows what else is racking up them wins!! They are all 9-0!!

When we hit money time, we'll have 3 undefeated top-ranked guys and a possible dark horse competing! A dream come true?? Not for some of you.."He's pulling, he's taking too long in winning, he's not bathing regularly"..WHO CARES???? They are winning and making this a really memorable and exciting basho.

Give it a break!! After the yusho, who will remember if he pushed or pulled or ate humus? The yusho will be remembered, that's what will be remembered.

For the life of me, I can't comprehend what some of you people want..

You all sound as if you are disappointed that they are not doing what you told them to do at keiko...

Geez..

PS- Now watch them all crumble from tomorrow..

Edited March 22, 2004 by Kintamayama

[aderechelsea]

Who cares if he pulls or pushes

The goal, ultimately, is to win.

well i don't agree with that.

I personally want an Ozeki like Tainkai to fight according to his rank and not run backwards untill someone falls down. He has 5 hatakikomi wins and a kotenage that was very like a hatakikomi.....I am not enjoying his display of sumo.

I don't care if he wins or loses.I want to see good sumo from him and the rest of the rikishi.

The basho doesn't need 4 undefeated rikishis to be great.It needs guys like Asasekiryu who has 9 wins with 8 different kimarite.It needs two great final days with matches that decide the Yusho and that will be remembered.

At least when the basho ends i would like to remember these things and not only the Yusho winner .......

[Kintamayama]

So basically, you're saying you don't mind, no, you would prefer Chiyotaikai going kadoban , as long as he displays Sumo to your liking, or what you think is "Ozeki Sumo", whatever that means..

Ok. So we disagree..

[Zenjimoto]

RANT!!!!!!!

What's all this? He's winning, right? Regardles of an elbow injury or not-he's winning. And what's this "we are not satisfied by Chiyotaiki's Sumo"? What are we, suddenly Oyakatas? Rijicho? HE'S 9-0 for crying out loud!! Who cares if he pulls or pushes or what he has for breakfast?? Or would you rather all see him lose , but do great, offensive Sumo?? The goal, ultimately, is to win. and he's winning, unless I've missed something here. And he's looking good. He's looking calmer than Asa. He's disposing his opponents quicker than Asa.He is luckier than most. So what!!He's hanging in their with a leg he couldn't stand on just two weeks ago!!

Asa himself is constantly saying he is worried and not 100%..you can see the elbow is heaviulky taped. He's a warrior, as is Chiyo, and as is KaioU, who at 31 with a chronic lumbago, a ruined tail bone and who knows what else is racking up them wins!! They are all 9-0!!

When we hit money time, we'll have 3 undefeated top-ranked guys and a possible dark horse competing! A dream come true?? Not for some of you.."He's pulling, he's taking too long in winning, he's not bathing regularly"..WHO CARES???? They are winning and making this a really memorable and exciting basho.

Give it a break!! After the yusho, who will remember if he pushed or pulled or ate humus? The yusho will be remembered, that's what will be remembered.

For the life of me, I can't comprehend what some of you people want..

You all sound as if you are disappointed that they are not doing what you told them to do at keiko...

Geez..

PS- Now watch them all crumble from tomorrow..

(Holiday feeling...) (Holiday feeling...) (Enjoying a beer...) Hilarious! (Singing drunk...)

[paolo]

RANT!!!!!!!

What's all this? He's winning, right? Regardles of an elbow injury or not-he's winning. And what's this "we are not satisfied by Chiyotaiki's Sumo"? What are we, suddenly Oyakatas? Rijicho? .....  etc..

Ehi ehi, come on, take it easy ! Actually your reply made me smile ... (Holiday feeling...)

I 'm not angry !!! (Holiday feeling...) I am just trying to understand ! I agree with you: this is the most entertaining and interesting basho I have seen since when I started to watch sumo (a couple of years ), but please let me try to understand what is going on from a technical point of view! Going back to my original questions, for example: I have always seen Asashoryu push his opponents with great strength and speed, and when he allowed them to come ahead it was just to move sideways and throw them (see Iwakiyama bout last basho). Now he is pushed backwards by everybody

even after a first phase when he managed to push (e.g. Shimotori bout), and

even Aminishiki can move him and almost throw him ... Kotomitsuki was almost pathetic in his first days, nevertheless all of a sudden he can keep Asashoryu still for two minutes ... I am interested in understanding whether there is a technical explanation for this. I remember that before January basho everybody said that Asashoryu was not trained, he had a flu and temperature all along the basho; but he won easily, and everybody wrote after the tournament something like "The yokozuna is head and shoulder above all the others" !!

As for Chiyotaikai, I agree on the fact that a win is a win; and that being able to win in different ways is a plus; but I think you will agree that all this pulling is absolutely unusual of him. So I do not see why one should not try to figure out what is going on !!

[Zuikakuyama]

(Holiday feeling...)

Kinta,

Well, I really don't care at the end of a basho what a rikishi did to get his record. So yes you are right in that respect.

But we are still in the middle of a basho, and the best indicator we have of a rikishi's future performance in the next few days is how he has been doing the past few day. And that is why we are speculating on the "problem" that shoryu is having.

I know that sumo requires lots of luck, but sometimes, your luck will run out if you dont do the kind of sumo you are known to do.

[Golynohana]

I have heard before that Taikai and Asa are not 100 % fit, and that they fight with injuries So I have great respekt B-) for them that thay still are able to be without loss so far. And for me they prove that they are great fighters and great rikishi even that they aren't so dominant as usually.

Besides, It's interesting for me to see that thay can use other techniques than they are used to do when they are 100% healthy.

(sorry for my english, i hope you understood me ... B-) )

[aderechelsea]

So basically, you're saying you don't mind, no, you would prefer Chiyotaikai going kadoban , as long as he displays Sumo to your liking, or what you think is "Ozeki Sumo", whatever that means..

Ok. So we disagree..

yeah ok....nothing wrong in disagreement.... B-)

what i call "ozeki sumo" :

i think and Ozeki should take initiative in fights and prove his superiority (as his rank indicates) over his opponents. I understand that in sumo you have to use all the weapons you have in a fight to get the win , but i prefer from Ozeki and Yokozuna to try moving forward first and if that doesn't work then try the pull down. Asashoryu does that from time to time and i have no problem with it ......

In this basho Taikai is imitating Kyokushuzan (a far better version of him.... B-) ) but he showed against Shimotori and Tochinonada that he CAN move forward if he wants to. I think that he just found an easy way to win bouts and i don't have to like that.Good for him being at 9-0 but i if he continues fighting like that i will remember his performance for the bad reasons.

Although it would be fun to see him try the "pull-down" to Kaio....... :-)

[Asashosakari]

In this basho Taikai is imitating Kyokushuzan (a far better version of him.... B-) ) but he showed against Shimotori and Tochinonada that he CAN move forward if he wants to. I think that he just found an easy way to win bouts and i don't have to like that.

True, you don't have to like it, but...how about putting some blame on Taikai's opponents who enable him to win like that in the first place? We're on Day 9 now, and by now every single one of them should know that Chiyotaikai does a lot of pulling sumo this basho (whether because of injuries or something else is irrelevent for now)...since I don't believe that all of Taikai's opponents are exceptional morons who just don't see the pulldown coming, maybe we could give Taikai some credit for achieving wins through techniques that he normally doesn't employ and probably doesn't train as much?

True, it's not always pretty, but as Moti already pointed out, what's the alternative? Attempts at forward sumo and a 6-9 record? Watch people complain immediately afterwards about how Taikai's a miserable failure and a one-trick pony whose oshi sumo is completely worthless if he's not at 100%. I think I'll take the ugly sumo and the 9-0 record for now...

For a comparison, let's take, say, Toki, who is a one-trick pony that isn't at 100% this basho. What's his record again? Right, 5-4 at the bottom of Makuuchi, way below his usual level.

As for Asashoryu...I understand that some people would like nothing better than seeing him utterly demolish the competition in every single bout for the next 15 years, but that's not terribly realistic. As far as I'm concerned, the mark of a great Yokozuna isn't that he's winning every bout in 0.27 seconds, but that he can still demonstrate strong sumo and win his bouts even if his opponents manage to put him in a crunch. So his first line of attack isn't getting him the wins this time...so what. B-) At least he actually does have a backup plan (multiple, even), enabling him to still win.

My respect for his skills have actually grown during the last few days...he's a bit injured, his opponents are more cautious now after last basho's zensho, and he still keeps on winning. That's what a future dai-yokozuna looks like, and it's probably a good idea to understand that he's still delivering great sumo right now, because much of his career will look like the current basho, not like Hatsu 2004. Otherwise you'll be perennially disappointed by his performances in future years.

Even Takanohana had plenty of close bouts in his career, which didn't stop him from winning 22 yusho, after all.

Edited March 22, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Tokimori]

I agree 100% with Asashosakari!

[aderechelsea]

As for Asashoryu...I understand that some people would like nothing better than seeing him utterly demolish the competition in every single bout for the next 15 years, but that's not terribly realistic. As far as I'm concerned, the mark of a great Yokozuna isn't that he's winning every bout in 0.27 seconds, but that he can still demonstrate strong sumo and win his bouts even if his opponents manage to put him in a crunch. So his first line of attack isn't getting him the wins this time...so what. B-) At least he actually does have a backup plan (multiple, even), enabling him to still win.

My respect for his skills have actually grown during the last few days...he's a bit injured, his opponents are more cautious now after last basho's zensho, and he still keeps on winning. That's what a future dai-yokozuna looks like, and it's probably a good idea to understand that he's still delivering great sumo right now, because much of his career will look like the current basho, not like Hatsu 2004. Otherwise you'll be perennially disappointed by his performances in future years.

Even Takanohana had plenty of close bouts in his career, which didn't stop him from winning 22 yusho, after all.

I agree on that 100% ........ :-)

EDIT: i will prefer my opinion on Taikai though ..... B-)

Edited March 22, 2004 by aderechelsea

[Kintamayama]

In this basho Taikai is imitating Kyokushuzan (a far better version of him.... ;-) ) but he showed against Shimotori and Tochinonada that he CAN move forward if he wants to. I think that he just found an easy way to win bouts and i don't have to like that.

True, you don't have to like it, but...how about putting some blame on Taikai's opponents who enable him to win like that in the first place? We're on Day 9 now, and by now every single one of them should know that Chiyotaikai does a lot of pulling sumo this basho (whether because of injuries or something else is irrelevent for now)...since I don't believe that all of Taikai's opponents are exceptional morons who just don't see the pulldown coming, maybe we could give Taikai some credit for achieving wins through techniques that he normally doesn't employ and probably doesn't train as much?

etc..

I couldn't (and didn't) give a better explanation.

B-) B-) :-) (I am not worthy...) (I am not worthy...)

[Kintamayama]

Ehi ehi, come on, take it easy ! Actually your reply made me smile ... B-)

That was exactly my intention..

Edited March 22, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Manekineko]

Actually, the very fact that Shoryu (and Taikai, and KaioU) keep winning and winning in spite of everything *is* the sign of Ozeki/yokozuna sumo. Frankly, I respect Asashoryu even more now then after the last basho. B-)

KaioU also, who always shows his best when you'd expect him to crumble (and then crumbles when you expect him to grab the tsuna, but hey...) - that's the spirit of champions.

I don't like Taikai. :-) But I like when guys I don't like win, so I can not-like them even more! B-) It's no fun not-liking 'Nami now, for example...

Kinta-zeki: (Sign of approval)

[Yoavoshimaru]

After the yusho, who will remember if he pushed or pulled or ate humus?

Well, hummus can have devastating effects. And we're hearing rumors about loose mawashi, leverage from loose mawashi.... Just kidding of course B-)

[QttP]

At least he is not pulling down his opponents like some other high ranked rikishi.........  (i don't want to hear complaints for Kyokushuzan ever again.....)

Neither do I, but I'm pretty darn sick of the complaints against Chiyotaikai either.

I personally want an Ozeki like Tainkai to fight according to his rank and not run backwards untill someone falls down. He has 5 hatakikomi wins and a kotenage that was very like a hatakikomi.....I am not enjoying his display of sumo.

And I am enjoying it. I most certainly would prefer him to win like he beat Miyabiyama and Tamanoshima than to lose like they lost to him (which he did a few bashos ago - had lost two matches that he was holding in both hands already, and lost the yusho because of that). Sorry, at this point I prefer him to win. I already know that he's capable of demolishing anyone at any given time with no exceptions, but lately he has not been doing it much. It's still very early, he may not get the yusho, and in fact the basho may turn out a disaster for him (like if he goes 9-6), but for now - he's doing what he's getting paid to do - winning.

The basho doesn't need 4 undefeated rikishis to be great.It needs guys like Asasekiryu who has 9 wins with 8 different kimarite.It needs two great final days with matches that decide the Yusho and that will be remembered.

What do I care for 100 different kimarite? I grew attached to Taikai following his devastating, ultra-dominant performance in Nagoya 2002, where he went 14-1, with most of the wins being straight out blasting oshi/tsuki. To me, 10 oshidashi is worth much more than a mix of uchigake, okurihikiotoshi, uwatedashihineri (yeah, I know there's no such thing), and what not. Because 10 oshidashi is a demonstration of power, and that's what I like to see. It's all opinion, but the tournament needs Chiyotaikai as much as it needs Asasekiryu, and I dare say, even more so.

And how exactly 4 undefeated rikishi by day 9 contradicts your idea of bliss of two great final days which decide the yusho?

I have always seen Asashoryu push his opponents with great strength and speed

No, you haven't, unless you have only been following sumo recently. Prior to his yokozuna promotion and in its early days, Asashoryu wasn't nearly as strong and as dominant as he was during the last couple of tourneys. Back then, speed, technique, agility and tremendous fighting spirit were his cards, they brought him his rank, and ultimately, they are going to keep him on this level.

Now he is pushed backwards by everybody

even after a first phase when he managed to push (e.g. Shimotori bout), and

even Aminishiki can move him and almost throw him ... Kotomitsuki was almost pathetic in his first days, nevertheless all of a sudden he can keep Asashoryu still for two minutes ... I am interested in understanding whether there is a technical explanation for this. I remember that before January basho everybody said that Asashoryu was not trained, he had a flu and temperature all along the basho; but he won easily, and everybody wrote after the tournament something like "The yokozuna is head and shoulder above all the others" !!

Pushed backwards a bit, yes, but still wins, doesn't he? In fact today was the first time he was in any kind of trouble and had an actual chance to lose. The explanation is pretty simple - you just CAN'T be always head and shoulders above everyone else. Nothing technical, no injuries. You just can't. You can't always be in top form. In Hatsu, he really was head and shoulders above everyone, there was no question there, and sometimes it seems natural to think that it's gonna carry on like that, but experience tells it never does.

As for Chiyotaikai, I agree on the fact that a win is a win; and that being able to win in different ways is a plus; but I think you will agree that all this pulling is absolutely unusual of him. So I do not see why one should not try to figure out what is going on !!

Not completely unusual. Take a look at Taikai's first yusho in January 1999 - 13 wins, 6 hatakikomi. Of course he was younger and not as strong back then, but throughout his career he was always criticized for pulling too much when he can't push. Sometimes it brought him embarassing or unnecessary losses. This time it worked for now. Why he can't push is pretty clear - injured leg doesn't allow the generation of pushing power at tachiai. It's enough against weak guys like Shuzan or Shimotori, and against Nada it probably just came out just right in the right moment (perhaps Nada wasn't expecting it so he surrendered easily). But no mystery here.

i think and Ozeki should take initiative in fights and prove his superiority (as his rank indicates) over his opponents. I understand that in sumo you have to use all the weapons you have in a fight to get the win , but i prefer from Ozeki and Yokozuna to try moving forward first and if that doesn't work then try the pull down. Asashoryu does that from time to time and i have no problem with it ......

Kyokushuzan usually henkas or jumps back at the tachiai. Taikai did no such thing in any of his pulldown wins. He went forward first, and probably felt that he can't push, so he pulled.

Do you think pulling is easier than pushing? Try to slap down a man the size of Miyabiyama with just one hand to the back of the neck.

I don't like Taikai.  But I like when guys I don't like win, so I can not-like them even more!

My mom doesn't like him so much too. What she mostly doesn't like is the hand-to-the-throat attitude. She was furious when he stuck a couple of fingers in Kotonowaka's Adam's apple last year. But, what does she know?

OK, I think I'm done defending C and A (mostly C) here.

[aderechelsea]

What do I care for 100 different kimarite? I grew attached to Taikai following his devastating, ultra-dominant performance in Nagoya 2002, where he went 14-1, with most of the wins being straight out blasting oshi/tsuki. To me, 10 oshidashi is worth much more than a mix of uchigake, okurihikiotoshi, uwatedashihineri (yeah, I know there's no such thing), and what not. Because 10 oshidashi is a demonstration of power, and that's what I like to see. It's all opinion, but the tournament needs Chiyotaikai as much as it needs Asasekiryu, and I dare say, even more so.

10 oshidashi in a basho shows strength and i have to like them even if it is one-dimensional sumo.Believe me..... Taikai is one of my favourite rikishi.

I like him for his unique style in "powerfull sumo" and i cannot adopt the opinion of "a win is a win by any means".

I want him to get the yusho but to enjoy his bouts too.I won't be sad if he ends up with 10-5 but his 10 wins are "Taikai style". Someone else will get it for sure and that would be fun too ......

As you said Chiyo is necessary to the basho but i think it needs more the "Taikai style" and not "Taikai himself".

I am not a Taikai hater and my opinion is not based on prejudice against him.

I understand your view on this matter though , because you are an avid Taikai fan. You want (as does he) wins and Yushos.

(the same goes for me in the case of Kaiho. I don't mind if he makes KK with 8 hatakikomi as long as he gets it ................ ;-) . But i have little expectations from him compared to Taikai.........)

As for Asashoryu i have no complain from him.He is doing great and even if he loses a bout or two he would have given a good fight for it......

As Asashosakari-san said before , the Yokozuna doesn't have to win all the time but to give all he got and provide good,strong sumo.

[Mikiro]

Thank you all for your enlightening comments. I do not remember in my time of watching Sumo an occasion when there were four men with 9-0 records so this experience is new ground for me. Many times in the past I have read grousing about weak Ozeki performance so I would think all those who want to see "Ozeki like" performances from Ozekis should certainly be happy with a combined record of 25-2. I have witnessed many times in my life great performances from athletes who were injured and it is indeed sometimes these achievements which are remembered over ones where utter domination was the rule. An example here would be Takanohana's last Yusho when he had suffered as time would prove a career ending injury. I remember a Japanese gymnast competing in the Olympics on the rings and sticking a landing even though he had a cracked Tibia. Regardless of the sport it is consistency over time which marks greatness, so if Asashoryu and Chiyotaikai are not 100%, yet still can win it is kudos to them and I thank them all for this enjoyable experience of athletic acumen so far this Basho.

[Takanobaka]

Many times in the past I have read grousing about weak Ozeki performance so I would think all those who want to see "Ozeki like" performances from Ozekis should certainly be happy with a combined record of 25-2. I have witnessed many times in my life great performances from athletes who were injured and it is indeed sometimes these achievements which are remembered over ones where utter domination was the rule. An example here would be Takanohana's last Yusho when he had suffered as time would prove a career ending injury. I remember a Japanese gymnast competing in the Olympics on the rings and sticking a landing even though he had a cracked Tibia. Regardless of the sport it is consistency over time which marks greatness, so if Asashoryu and Chiyotaikai are not 100%, yet still can win it is kudos to them and I thank them all for this enjoyable experience of athletic acumen so far this Basho.

Here here ;-)

[Yubiquitoyama]

It does feel like we are arguing about the kind of sumo we enjoy, and how the tournament should play out to give us the most. Fact is, we will all have different opinions on this based on a number of different reasons. I strongly doubt any argument will make us change our own mind about what we like and don't like.

This is a forum, so there isn't really anything wrong with that, but I hope noone thinks he can actually explain to someone else why straight forward strong sumo is "better" than technical backstepping sumo (or whatever) and expect that he or she understands and agrees. They won't. It's opinion... :-D

PS. I can say this: Hatakikomi-wins for Chiyotaikai is nothing new. I defended him for doing that on the sumo mailing list at least 5 years ago, so it's not that has just entered into his sumo... ;-)

Edited March 22, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[MongolPower]

Who said an ozeki has to go forward and be on offensive at all times? I totally disagree with that. In every competative spots game those who are smarter than their opponenets besides being stronger win. Being smart means having superior technique and strategy. Offense and diffense goes hand in hand! This is I don't like Kokkai. He has no strategy. He is like a freaking bulldozer. Sumo is not a just game that bigger ones push the other one out of a circle. I like sumo because I often see lighter8 weaker guys out manuevering heavier and stronger guys. That is just fantastic! ;-)