New restriction proposal

[Chinonofuji]

Limiting the number of college rikishi per heya could discourage them from getting an education, which would be bad, I think (i.e. "I have to start early, or I'll be fighting for one of just a few spaces...).

For those wrestlers who don't have a very successful career, it would be good to have a fallback degree. I imagine those who join at 15 or so don't have as many options (stay in sumo in some capacity or open a chanko restaurant, etc.).

Compared to the U.S. (where I am), going into such an intense sport at such a young age is seen as a bit excessive.

OTOH, I have no knowledge of what any rikishi does if he doesn't stay in sumo or open a restaurant, degree or no degree. Security? Bodyguard? Anyone know if those with degrees use them at all?

Anyway, just my opinion that sumo should be doing as much as possible to encourage more education, not less.

Edited February 21, 2004 by Chinonofuji

[Doitsuyama]

I don't think college education would be really limited. I understood the original proposal rather that way that each heya shall have a limited number of TSUKEDASHI rikishi from college. Why should there be any limit of deshi starting at mae-zumō?

[Chinonofuji]

I don't think college education would be really limited. I understood the original proposal rather that way that each heya shall have a limited number of TSUKEDASHI rikishi from college. Why should there be any limit of deshi starting at mae-zum??

Aaaaah, I see. Thanks. Obviously I didn't get that. (Sigh...)

Oh well, chalk another one up to learning the intracacies of sumo.

[Muhomatsu]

Kintamayama:

"With all due respect to the esteemed views voiced here, I think if you are good enough, it's not that important if you have a lot of high-ranking heya mates-you can always do de-geiko..Rohou from Odake, Kokkai from Oitekaze, are two of many that come to mind. Hakuhou has been doing pretty well out of Miyagino. Tochiazuma had no-one to go against when he was coming up in Tamanoi. Neither did Taikai, with all due resopect to Kokonoe."

The first few examples you give are of foreigners (Kokkai, Roho, Hakuho) who have to deal with the restriction on foreigners - so it is not like they had much choice to begin with when being recruited. They had to go where the slots are available - famous heya-mates or not.

Even Tochiazuma had little choice about what stable he would enter. Do you honestly think he would have chosen a stable other than the one run by his father?

Of course, a great wrestler can come out of a small stable. It has happened many times in the past. The question at hand is, does a college graduate WANT to join a small stable versus a larger one? Look at Takekaze - he joined Oguruma - why? He was actively recruited by Kotokaze. That is EXACTLY what needs to occur in other stables. If the Oyakata DO their job as stable masters - improve living conditions, develop talent, get modern facilities - then they should have little problem attracting good talent.

Mohomatsu

[Yubiquitoyama]

Of course, a great wrestler can come out of a small stable.

Edited February 24, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Yoavoshimaru]

Compared to the U.S. (where I am), going into such an intense sport at such a young age is seen as a bit excessive.

We must be living in a different US, Chinonofuji-zeki (Laughing...) See Freddie Adu, Michelle Wie, IMG Academies, major sport (basketball, football) scouting from 6th grade on, any number of racing drivers in various prep leagues in their early teens, there are too many examples to count...

[Chinonofuji]

Compared to the U.S. (where I am), going into such an intense sport at such a young age is seen as a bit excessive.

We must be living in a different US, Chinonofuji-zeki :-( See Freddie Adu, Michelle Wie, IMG Academies, major sport (basketball, football) scouting from 6th grade on, any number of racing drivers in various prep leagues in their early teens, there are too many examples to count...

Ahh, true indeed. But there are always schools built into these academies, and young athletes have tutors travel with them until they finish their schooling through 18-year old requirements.

Does this kind of alternative tutoring and schooling exist in ozumo? Do the 15-year old rikishi have a schooling part to their day? I had gotten the impression that life in the heya was pretty much eat, sleep, train, cook, and clean.

I'm more of a novice sumo fan, so I could be wrong, but I've often worried that ozumo forces kids to choose a path at a young age that limits their schooling. If they wear out and don't make it to sekitori status, I worry that they're left doing more menial work.

Best,

Chino the "Social Crusader" (Laughing...)

[Zentoryu]

I know they go through some schooling during the months that they are in mae-zumo. But how long this lasts after they get ranked on the banzuke, I have no idea.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

I've understood the sumo school lasts for only about six months and that it consists only subjects related to sumo like calligraphy, sumo jinku (singing), etc.

[Yubiquitoyama]

I'm more of a novice sumo fan, so I could be wrong, but I've often worried that ozumo forces kids to choose a path at a young age that limits their schooling.  If they wear out and don't make it to sekitori status, I worry that they're left doing more menial work.

The only requirement for entering sumo is to have finished junior high, but high school isn't mandatory for anyone, so they won't be alone in going that way, and I suspect a large degree of them wouldn't enter high school even if they did not enter sumo. No requirements for anything more although it's not uncommon for youngsters to enter sumo after high school instead of entering at 15. During the 1970s and earlier, even junior high was not a requirement and it was not uncommon for youngsters tired of school to enter sumo as early as at 13 or 14.

As a side-note, the current chairman of the board, Kitanoumi, dropped junior high and entered sumo at 13. (Laughing...)

Edited February 24, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Yoavoshimaru]

Compared to the U.S. (where I am), going into such an intense sport at such a young age is seen as a bit excessive.

We must be living in a different US, Chinonofuji-zeki :-/ See Freddie Adu, Michelle Wie, IMG Academies, major sport (basketball, football) scouting from 6th grade on, any number of racing drivers in various prep leagues in their early teens, there are too many examples to count...

Ahh, true indeed. But there are always schools built into these academies, and young athletes have tutors travel with them until they finish their schooling through 18-year old requirements.

Does this kind of alternative tutoring and schooling exist in ozumo? Do the 15-year old rikishi have a schooling part to their day? I had gotten the impression that life in the heya was pretty much eat, sleep, train, cook, and clean.

I'm more of a novice sumo fan, so I could be wrong, but I've often worried that ozumo forces kids to choose a path at a young age that limits their schooling. If they wear out and don't make it to sekitori status, I worry that they're left doing more menial work.

Best,

Chino the "Social Crusader" (Laughing...)

Good points all. I didn't consider the academic part, only the sport part.

[Muhomatsu]

Think of it this way:

There is Microsoft and a small software firm. What the proposal does is tell Microsoft that it can no longer hire engineers and designers from the best colleges. First, let us say that this clearly limits the opening salary and final pensions of new engineers. Second, it clearly restricts the freedom of both engineers to choose where they want to work and where they want to live and what sort of projects they want to work on. It also limits the freedom of both Microsoft and the small companies to hire whom they want. Clearly this is not good for commerce, not good for consumers, and not good for any individual. (Look at it from this standpoint - some bureaucrat decides where you work, what salary you get, and what your pensionable retirement will eventually be without consulting you at all).

This is the same case as the proposal. There is de-geiko - but that is a totally different situation than heya life. Living with and practicing daily with the best people in the sport is totally different than visiting them from time to time - and it can have an affect on the first few basho in sumo as well as throughout the career.

If the Oyakata are only thinking about the short run ("other than the long run" to use a quote) - then they should not be operating a stable. Careers of wrestlers are often 10-15 years - not a short run at all. The bottom line is that we should not be telling these potential wrestlers who their boss will be, where they will live, and what their training schedules will be. They should be able to decide for themselves. This is their career after all. They are the one who has to live there 24/7/365. If they decide based on advice from their coach (a brother-in-law of an Oyakata) - then they had additional information on which to make THEIR own decision. Some other Oyakata or even Sumo fans have no right to make that decision for them.

If you are looking for "fairness" - then the proposal should be to make sumo a 16 day basho with each wrestler going 8-8 over the tournament and all sharing the emperor's cup. That is what would be "fair". However, sumo is a competitive sport (Unfair by definition). That means that there will be competitive heya and uncompetitive heya. It is a fact and it is good for the sport.

Muhomatsu

[Yubiquitoyama]

If you are looking for "fairness" - then the proposal should be to make sumo a 16 day basho with each wrestler going 8-8 over the tournament and all sharing the emperor's cup.

Edited February 25, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Asashosakari]

The bottom line is that we should not be telling these potential wrestlers who their boss will be, where they will live, and what their training schedules will be.

Edited February 25, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Yubiquitoyama]

I realize I probably should specify what kind of rule I personally believe could have some merit on this: I don't particularly think hindering college rikishi from going to the same stable will be a good thing to do. Just being college rikishi only means you have been taught a lot of the basic sumo elsewhere and although a college rikishi will excel quickly through the ranks, he might not necessarily, even uninjured, make it to Juryo. I applaude the oyakata who manages to spot the college rikishi who despite average amateur results makes good in the pros, or the oyakata who can make an average college kid go far when starting from mae-zumo.

However, the current rules for tsukedashi starters practically DOES guarantee a perennial sekitori barring injuries, and can generally be seen as an easy way to get another sekitori quickly (since just a couple of basho might be needed from a Ms15 start), and thereby get bonus to the heya for having sekitori and the indirect bonus of having a rikishi to look up to for potential new deshi. I think this advantage should not be restricted to the big heyas and the oyakatas who themselves went to that school or have the right relatives/contacts to get that particular college yokozuna to join them. In the end this tends to make heyas grow (as in getting many sekitori) more than a good oyakata can do with just "ordinary" mae-zumo-starting deshi (there aren't many stables of late that have been able to get multiple Maegashiras neither of whom were foreign nor tsukedashi starter; currently only Naruto-beya, Sadogatake-beya and Kasugano-beya).

Personally I therefore would like to see a rule that restricts new tsukedashi-starters in a heya. I think this should not depend on whether the old tsukedashi starters did good or not or happens to become veterans, so my idea would be a rule that limits a heya to take on a new tsukedashi starter more than once every 6 or 7 years. Maybe it should even be possible for a college yokozuna who really wants to enter a particular stable, to choose that stable given that he starts from Maezumo instead of Ms15/Ms10, although I haven't decided whether I think that is good or not... :-D

EDIT: It actually feels good to have what almost could be seen as a controversial opinion. I sometimes get the feeling (for example when people accuse me of it (Laughing...) ) I'm a bit too politically correct in my opinions otherwise :-/

Edited February 26, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kashunowaka]

I couldn't help thinking about the NHL drafting rules when reading this thread. Perhaps something for the Sumo Kyokai? (Laughing...)

[Naganoyama]

I personally don't think this ought to be regulated. It should be possible for a college rikishi to join a stable of his choice. I think that the rikishi will be influenced by a number of factors, which include the prestige of a heya, knowing someone in a heya, having a relative or friend who is/was associated with a heya, etc.

So it is up to the oyakata of the smaller heya to add to those influences if he is going to improve the chances of his heya getting noticed. Going to the college, meeting with the students and telling them about the stable might be one way. There are advantages and disadvantages of going to a small stable. The disadvantages have been described in reasonable detail already in this thread. Perhaps the atmosphere is better in a small stable and the family-like bond between the members is stronger. The oyakata, in visiting a college, could spell out the advantages as he sees them. There is nothing like face-to-face contact. Surely this is a bit of a sales process, even in the ancient art of sumo. (Or do I need to wash my mouth out with soap for such a suggestion? (Laughing...))

[Muhomatsu]

If you are looking for "fairness" - then the proposal should be to make sumo a 16 day basho with each wrestler going 8-8 over the tournament and all sharing the emperor's cup.

[Yubiquitoyama]

On the contrary - if we do not attempt to logically discuss our differing opinions, what other recourse does the situation have?

Logical discussions and rational debates ARE the only alternative to things getting out of hand. There are those in this world who attempt to sway others by logic, reason, and debating. There are those who see that as a waste of time - and for them FORCE is the only alternative.

For you, where does fairness in Sumo end and where does competition begin?

Do you at least see why I think you are not operating on one solid principle? Your views seem to me to be contradictory. It seems to me you want fairness/equality in certain outcomes and not in other outcomes. It also seems to me that you are "armchair quarterbacking" in a way - what I mean by this is that you do not seem to see any difficulty in managing the way others run their lives and careers. May I ask what makes you think you have that right? Is it being an avid sumo fan? If so, does that not clash with my rights as an avid sumo fan to support a free system for college grads? Again, we can logically debate it. It seems to me that the choice here is freedom versus force. You are for the use of force (regulation) with regards to a college grad's enterance and I am for the freedom of the college grad to make his own decision.

The reason I don't see that this can go anywhere is that you have used extremely provocative statements and language up to this point, although I have hardly said anything yet. Nothing suggests that would change to the better if I actually start to argue. Therefore this is the last thing I say in this.

[Takanobaka]

I do not mean to imply that joining a small stable can wreck one's career. I apologize if my messages have given you that opinion. All I am stating is that the general trend of college grads are toward larger stables. Why is this trend occuring? Is it the lack of a need for de-geiko? Is it the lack of modern facilities? If you want college grads to join smaller stables, the REAL source of their "exodus" to larger stables needs to be discovered. With that information in hand people like Oshiogawa Oyakata can make changes to their heya to make it a more attractive place (or they can do nothing and accept the consecuences of their own inaction).

I think the reason is ever baser than that. Not that many of you will get this sports analogy, but it's somewhat similar to NCAA college basketball in my view (substitute teams for heya and all-americans for tsukedashi and other appropriate basketball for ozumo comparisons and you'll get the idea). Certain teams begin as the "haves". Those teams have a better line for making revenue, are generally more popular, and are thus able to spend more money and time for recruiting, updating facilities, publicizing themselves, and the like. Generally, it is those teams that end up staying the best for the longest, getting the best recruits, and keeping a higher level of recognition from peers and fans even if there are lesser known teams playing at an identical level.

All-Americans (basketball equivalent of the most naturally talented players) grow up playing the sport, and when they know they're good and will be able to play just about anywhere they want to at the next level, have already started thinking about what teams they want to play for before they even enter their teens. When they watch higher levels, they have the teams they root for because those teams are either the best, or local, or have players and coaches on them that they really like. Those smaller teams that don't get much exposure usually don't even enter the picture in their minds, primarily because the players have never even heard of them. In the rare occasion that an All-American goes to a smaller school, it's usually because they have family at that school or because it's a local school and they want to be able to stay closer to home (an advantage that heya generally cant have). Other than that, the larger schools are usually in the players' minds.

By the time the all-americans are a year or two away from signing up to go to a college, they've been inundated with letters and visits from coaches, their parents have been swayed (and often given illegal gifts) by school boosters, and their high school coaches have taslked with them about what they think is best for the player regarding their long-term goals. Once the coaches come to visit, they're able to talk to the students about how much better their facilities are, how they have a favorable schedule, and how more people will be cheering for the player because the school is popular, none of which the small schools can claim as any kind of advantage because they start out with less money, fewer fans, and less talented players. Thus, the small school coaches know that the student doesn't want to go to the small school to begin with because that's not who they rooted for as a child, and they know they can't make any inroads in recruiting because the larger schools will almost have better things to offer. That leaves the smaller schools to try recruiting players that are less talented, but who they think can be harder workers or who have bodies that project into becoming more talented once they hit another growth spurt. Thus, a few talented people do end up at smaller schools, but not nearly to the extent of the bigger schools, and the haves stay haves while the have-nots usually stay have-nots.

However, occasionally, over time, a school that was once considered a have-not will develop into a bigger draw due to superior coaching and recruiting for what someone might be a few years down the road (Gonzaga now), offering more personalized attention and superior academics (Colgate in the mid-90's), using an unconventional system that may be more attractive to certain players (Loyola Marymount in the mid to late 80's) or sometimes just outright cheating (UNLV in the late 80's/early 90's). Still, those times almost never last because they don't have history on their side. The one advantage sumo has here is that if a heya can become bigger through insightful recruiting or just offering something different is that the rikishi are in the heya for much longer than 4 years, and thus people can grow up rooting for someone and they'll still be around by the time they join a heya.

Personally, I think a limit to the number of tsukedashi per heya per number of years might be beneficial. Rather than an overall limit, which is somewhat overharsh and does cut down the opportunities of prospective rikishi, a system where a heya can only have one tsukedashi every two or three years may help some of the heya who have better oyakata but don't have the other resources get more exposure. To be frank, some of the heya just stink and there's no good reason to force someone to join a heya where their potential would be limited, and there's no good reason to try making a heya with an inept oyakata more powerful. However, if the number is limited for a certain number of years, it allows for a certain amount of planning and could create some more exciting matchups. If a heya sees someone they really want, they can start recruiting him earlier and tell him that they will hold their spot for him. If someone really wants to join a poarticular heya, they can leave school early to join up or wait a year rather than being forced to go somewhere they truly don't want to go. And if the larger heya have mostly filled their quota at a given time, it gives the smaller heya with better recruiters an opportunity to show off their wares and convince rikishi that they would make a better choice. Essentially, it doesn't foreclose the opportunity for young rikishi to go where they want to go, but it gives everyone a more even playing field in showing off what they have to offer. While that doesn't get rid of the inherent "hometown advantage" of wanting to go to a heya that you grew up rooting for, it potentially gives a longer timeframe for people to make an informed decision.

[Muhomatsu]

On the contrary - if we do not attempt to logically discuss our differing opinions, what other recourse does the situation have?

Logical discussions and rational debates ARE the only alternative to things getting out of hand.  There are those in this world who attempt to sway others by logic, reason, and debating.  There are those who see that as a waste of time - and for them FORCE is the only alternative. 

For you, where does fairness in Sumo end and where does competition begin?

Do you at least see why I think you are not operating on one solid principle?  Your views seem to me to be contradictory.  It seems to me you want fairness/equality in certain outcomes and not in other outcomes.  It also seems to me that you are "armchair quarterbacking" in a way - what I mean by this is that you do not seem to see any difficulty in managing the way others run their lives and careers.  May I ask what makes you think you have that right?  Is it being an avid sumo fan?  If so, does that not clash with my rights as an avid sumo fan to support a free system for college grads?  Again, we can logically debate it.  It seems to me that the choice here is freedom versus force.  You are for the use of force (regulation) with regards to a college grad's enterance and I am for the freedom of the college grad to make his own decision.

The reason I don't see that this can go anywhere is that you have used extremely provocative statements and language up to this point, although I have hardly said anything yet. Nothing suggests that would change to the better if I actually start to argue. Therefore this is the last thing I say in this.

"The reason I don't see that this can go anywhere is that you have used extremely provocative statements and language up to this point, although I have hardly said anything yet. "

You have said a lot. I know where you stand on this issue and if I apply your principle to other issues, I know where you stand politically as well.

I am also glad that I use such strong statements to stand up for freedom. If one does not stand up for it, one loses it. One cannot be meek in the face of a challange to freedom and then claim to be a enemy of authoritarianism.

On a side bar: I notice you have Quito in your name - have you been there? I am about to go there!

[Yubiquitoyama]

You have said a lot.

Edited February 26, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Muhomatsu]

It has become quite clear to me what your political views are as well. Now, stop trying to make this a political thing, as this is a sumo forum and politics is pretty much out-of-bounce.

At least we can all see how philosophy has practical applications.

One set of metaphysics/etc. leads to one set of conclusions for the Kyokai's administartions while a different set can lead to an entirely different conclusion.

In some cases, like this, I think it will be difficult to separate politics from sumo. We are talking about the administration of an organization after all.

[Yoavoshimaru]

The NCAA basketball analogy is interesting and fitting. There are other similar ones, e.g the number of foreign players allowed on pro teams.

But if we ignore the mechanics of such possible impose limits for a moment and ask why this movement is needed at all, what's the answer? Can someone demonstrate a statistically significant difference between the number of yusho won by heya with many college champs versus the number of yusho won by heya with few college champs?

I much prefer solid numbers-based reasoning directly related to sumo than wildly off-base rhetoric about the concepts of freedom.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

Somehow the situation in sumo reminds me of Formula 1. Owners of small teams like Jordan and Minardi start a new season knowing their chances of scoring race victories are practically non-existing (Brazil 2003 being a notable exception) and that without success they are very likely not to get big sponsorships packages for the next year which would enable them to make their car more competitive. It's a vicious circle very hard to break through but sometimes if works. Jordan was quite competitive in 1999 as many remember.

However, most of the time the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor (at best). NHL recognizes this with their draft rules. They attempt to even the playfield by giving the unsuccessful teams a chance to reserve the playing rights of the most promising newcomers. Is this punishing successful teams indirectly? Undoubtedly so, done in the best interests (as understood by the powers-that-be of NHL) of the whole league as practically no one wants to see matches ending something like 10-1.

In Finnish ice-hockey hypocrisy abounds as there's no NHL drafting style system in use. The former league CEO (who also owns one of the most successful teams) used to heavily criticize the CEOs of the smaller teams for selling their best players before January 15th (the last day transfers can be made) for as high a price as possible. They did and do this simply to survive to the end of the season. As the league is closed (nowadays, chagrin of mine and countless others) those teams have no fear of dropping down in division hierarchy. They simply play what's left of the season with as much vigour and will to win as you can expect. The aforementioned CEO failed to mention that without teams like his very willing to buy the best players of those lesser teams this unfortunate situation would very likely never happen. I guess by the same logic you could argue prostitution is to be blamed on the prostitutes...

Back to sumo. Suppose you're a promising young guy eligible to enjoy the privilege of makushita-kaku and about to enter professional sumo and likely to succeed quite well and have a relatively long career as a sekitori (whatever the exact level). You're contacted by several oyakata. Which heya would you choose?

1) Very successful one with half a dozen sekitori. I would imagine their heya building is equipped with the latest equipment. There are a lot of toriteki to act as your tsukebito once you get few good bashos under your belt and get the juryo promotion. Lots of excellent rikishi to hone your skills against and to avoid facing in the bashos. A negative detail could be the relative lack of kabu in fifteen years' time if you plan to continue as an oyakata.

2) Tiny newcomer heya with oyakata, few of his nephews as your sparring partners; five years younger than you, 50 kgs lighter than you etc. Pushovers with no practical value for your development for a long time if ever. Predictably humble premises. A positive thing would be your good to excellent chances of inheriting the kabu of your oyakata for fair terms if you are successful enough to qualify to become a toshiyori and oyakata happens to be of suitable age at the time of your retirement.

3) Something in between heya with some of the positives and negatives of the two heyas above. A run-of-the-mill situation.

Which one would you choose? Who would not choose heya #1? Who would want to drive for Minardi if Ferrari calls?

What is the logical outcome of complete freedom in this regard? Small heyas getting merged to bigger ones within the ichimon? Then mergers between mediocre sized heyas? Finally amalgamation of the heyas inside an ichimon? Five superheyas? Two? The good ol' East vs. West? Is that what we want?

Is there really a way for minuscule heya to break through? I think there is but it's very small. Good, excellent, it can be done. But the price of this level of difficulty is that we will miss bouts like Dejima vs. Musoyama every single basho. To a certain point this is unavoidable but where exactly should that point be?

I have no answers to questions I've asked above. I do know how I would want this issue not be solved. And yes, someone can probably deduce my political inclination for everything written above but that is probably something more suitable to be discussed on other forums...