Ozumo and steroids

[Misisko]

What do you think about steroids in profesional Sumo? I see that you have a lot of information about Sumo and I want to know your opinion about this.

Excuse me for poor english

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

What do you think about steroids in profesional Sumo? I see that you have a lot of information about Sumo and I want to know your opinion about this.

Quite prevalent I think. Been planning to write a sort of a long "doping"-thread in ozumo discussions in the near future.

Steroids fit well in ozumo, no tests made, the whole principle of size matters strongly favours usage of growth hormone for example in lower ranks too. Training ways strongly support use of steroids too as anabolic affect is essential for fast recovery. Overtraining looms very easily otherwise. Imagine working out your legs 6 times a week with hard intensity without any anabolic substances! Supermans if that is the case. Physiological fact according to main well-based muscle recovery theories.

But more later...

[Fujisan]

Welcome on board Misisko-

Steroids in sports give the taker an unfair advantage or so I hear but if the majority of Rikishi are taking them(IF) then there is no advantage is there.

That said Im against the use of steroids because of the health risks involved in their consumption.

[Kintamayama]

Steroids in sports give the taker an unfair advantage or so I hear but if the majority of Rikishi are taking them(IF) then there is no advantage is there.

I think rikishi, or anyone else for that matter, should be allowed to listen to their music with any system they choose, be it stereoid or other.

I am not afraid to say this aloud.

[Rijicho]

There's really nothing off-topic about this so I'll move this to Ozumo Discussions.

[Chinonofuji]

Quite prevalent I think. Been planning to write a sort of a long "doping"-thread in ozumo discussions in the near future.

<snip>

But more later...

FYI, we had an earlier thread about this, including a good post by you, Kaikitsune Makoto.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Steroids in sports give the taker an unfair advantage or so I hear but if the majority of Rikishi are taking them(IF) then there is no advantage is there.

I think rikishi, or anyone else for that matter, should be allowed to listen to their music with any system they choose, be it stereoid or other.

I am not afraid to say this aloud.

Well, you shouldn't be afraid to say it aloud of course. I can only say that I strongly disagree. And I have no problem saying that aloud either. No matter what sport or how spread it might be, I think steroid usage should simply be quenched.

Edited February 16, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Fujisan]

Well Yubi I agree with you as I said in my post and I think Kintamayama was using a play on words(steroid-stereo) to lighten the mood of the thread.

[Kintamayama]

Well Yubi I agree with you as I said in my post and I think Kintamayama was using a play on words(steroid-stereo) to lighten the mood of the thread.

I admit my guilt..

[Misisko]

Thanks for posts! I

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

I knew that steroids are not as bad as many peolple think and I also have some experience with them... but I didnot know that in sumo aren

[Naganoyama]

I knew that steroids are not as bad as many peolple think and I also have some experience with them... but I didnot know that in sumo aren

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

One way to get familiar with this world of steroids is to familiarize

yourself with Finnish former world class Greek-Roman wrestler Tuomo

Karila's doctoral thesis "Adverse effects of anabolic androgenic steroids

on the cardiovascular, metabolic and reproductive systems of anabolic

substance abusers" at

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/laa/b...la/adversee.pdf

It is medical text naturally as it is medical thesis but it has some good

stuff to laymen too. If you take a look at the contents, you can easily

read some bits that interest you. It is not in Finnish :-)

Who would put the cork back? No tests in ozumo, no danger of getting

caught. Stopping steroid usage when many others use would be like turning

into speed walking in marathon race when others run. Same goes for not

starting to use at all. Principles of not cheating? Well they would need

to be very strong as A) it is not REALLY forbidden as nobody would say

anything if they would know for sure you use steroids/growth hormone and

B) It is probably very deeply embedded in sumo and widely acknowladged

amongst rikishi themselves as part of sumo. Maybe doping tests would be a

choice worth considering but that unfortunately leaves growth hormone out

as that can't be screened so that it could be said it is from illegal use.

(well now latest news suggest that growth hormone tests are getting better

in this sense but still..)

Good thing is that Kyokai arranged these educative sessions where pros

told about the affects of steroids/growth hormone and hence gave more

information to rikishi. Some rikishi seem to be quite unaware of even

simplest of things. If a makuuchi rikishi suddenly says "I heard that

proteins are good for muscles so I am eating dozens of eggs now!", it

sounds rather strange. That is BASIC stuff. As basic as shiko for

goodness' sake. In this light it can also be that some rikishi are given

steroids with an encouragement "Take these! Makes you stronger!" and they

had absolutely no idea what they are doing. Some rikishi definitely know

more about things and understand the essence of nutrition in ozumo and

basic principles in what kind of food is good for muscles and why and can

also understand the reason for steroid use.

In sumo some circumstantial suggestive facts would be hypertrophy of

common injection points, outbursts of typical steroid-related acne, thick

skin in faces (steroids thicken the skin in many places), unusually puffy

and bulked returnees from injuries, unusual rage accompaniying a period of

recuperation (one rikishi didn't train for 3 weeks prior to basho due to

knee injury and then came to basho and was in complete KING-mode on day 1

after he won) or good weight gain, VERY big muscles in areas rikishi may not

use much at all in his sumo etc.

I'd be VERY surprised to learn that even one of the sanyaku class rikishi

would not use any steroids of growth hormones. Can someone honestly claim

Asashoryu most likely is not using? Rikishi who wants to rule the world,

who hates losing more than anything else, whose brother is in

pro-wrestling (if Shoryu trains with them and watches their keiko, he must

be well aware of the substance use there too even if he would not

otherwise be surrounded by people who know steroids like their own gym

short pockets), who exhibits violence in keiko and overall self control

deficits, who has trained massive amounts in his earlier career with

minimal rest etc. If that equation doesn't lead to substantial steroid

(and many other substances..many power athletes have immense cocktails of

steroids, growth hormone, antiestrogens, insuline etc. in their "diets")

use I don't know what does.

If Shoryu and ozekis and other regular sanyaku guys are clean, then so be

it and good it is! I just think this way and would like to hear someone

suggesting contrary and challenging those bases of my view. Maybe I know

too much (relative concept...) about this stuff and have seen too much to

have lost all noble ideas of strength sport success without performance

enhancing drugs.

One question for all!

What factors would you say support the fact that steroids are not widely

used in ozumo? I mean besides the "I hope they don't exist in vast degree

so I want to believe it too".

Lastly! It would be awesome to see Futabayama in modern sumo. He was most

likely doping free ( at least steroid free as they were not synthesized

back then yet) and also earlier greats like Hitachiyama who looked REALLY

strong and was definitely undoped :-) Raiden was immense giant and a good

counter strike from people who believe that monsters are not made without

steroids heh! Well maybe Raiden had naturally very high growth hormone

levels etc. that would explain but it IS possible without steroids too

judging from these evident undoped giants with immense power to accompany

the size.

[Kashunowaka]

Interesting post. I haven't read the doctoral thesis though ...

One question for all!

What factors would you say support the fact that steroids are not widely

used in ozumo? I mean besides the "I hope they don't exist in vast degree

so I want to believe it too".

Hmm... I can't think of anything. :-)

Lastly! It would be awesome to see Futabayama in modern sumo.

I think I know what you mean, but ... Judging from other sports, I would like to think that there has been some development in sumo too since the 40s. If we could somehow transfer Paavo Nurmi or Emil Z

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

How big was Raiden?

He's said to have been 197 cm and 160 kg. Unusually large man even today, a veritable giant 200 years ago.

[BuBa]

[if that equation doesn't lead to substantial steroid use I don't know what does.]

I am curious how you would describe 'the equation' in case of Takanohana. Is there any trace of substantial drug usage too?

Besides, I believe, in case of Asashoryo, his power results not that much from steroid as from his genes, although I am not denying the first either. He is coming from wrestling family in generations, and they are a special breed. Since there are legends about immensely powerful men in the past, why shouldn't they be born in our days too. After all, the humans generally are becoming bigger. I remember visiting an an old castle in Germany and there was a bed of the Fuerst. It was very small. Asked about the size of the bed the tour guide told us that the Herr der Burg wasn't a cripple. Now, I am wondering how big was Raiden really?

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

Now, I am wondering how big was Raiden really?

Do you have any specific reason to suspect 197/160? The measurement units used were different of course but still... why would those figures be something to be suspicious of?

[Yubiquitoyama]

Now, I am wondering how big was Raiden really?

Do you have any specific reason to suspect 197/160? The measurement units used were different of course but still... why would those figures be something to be suspicious of?

This is not big but VERY big compared to the average Japanese of the day, and it was common to use big rikishi to draw crowds, very much like a freak show. Several woodblock prints have figures of the sizes of wrestlers which are plainly ridiculous and Raiden was brought up as one such big rikishi from the beginning, into the top division. I don't know whether this figure really is suspicious, but I could very well see it as a figure used early on when Raiden was brought in and then re-used for the rest of his career, whether it was actually correct or not. I don't say that's so (I would think it's probably a correct figure), but it seems like a possibility, without further info available.

Edited February 18, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[sekihiryu]

What do you think about steroids in profesional Sumo?

Yes they are there but to what extent who knows.

It would be nice to believe they were all clean, but the Kyokai dont seem to eager announce "IOC" like stringent drug tests so its a case of "ignorance is bliss"

Edited February 20, 2004 by sekihiryu

[Jejima]

I remember visiting an an old castle in Germany and there was a bed of the Fuerst. It was very small. Asked about the size of the bed the tour guide told us that the Herr der Burg wasn't a cripple. Now, I am wondering how big was Raiden really?

Now I am wondering who the Fuerst was? Apologies for my lack of German history knowledge!

.......and apologies for.... (Being unsure...)

[Zuikakuyama]

Well, the height / weight ratio of 197/160 is very very reasonable (actually quite similar to Takanonami), and this would tend to lend some credence that this is the actual size of the man.

I would tend to think that it would be rather difficult to make up such a "reasonable" number when I suspect the average man 250 years ago was probably in the range of 155/55 kg, and noboby really knows what a 200cm man should reasonably weigh.

History is filled with legends of ridiculously big men, and inevitably they get the height / weight ratios wrong, or they displayed the weapons that the man supposedly wielded (which would weigh several hundred kilos), and would be physically impossible to do for a man of that size.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Well, the height / weight ratio of 197/160 is very very reasonable (actually quite similar to Takanonami), and this would tend to lend some credence that this is the actual size of the man.

I would tend to think that it would be rather difficult to make up such a "reasonable" number when I suspect the average man 250 years ago was probably in the range of 155/55 kg, and noboby really knows what a 200cm man should reasonably weigh.

History is filled with legends of ridiculously big men, and inevitably they get the height / weight ratios wrong, or they displayed the weapons that the man supposedly wielded (which would weigh several hundred kilos), and would be physically impossible to do for a man of that size.

Well, for a sumo wrestler, the span of "reasonable height/weight ratio" is really big. Anything from 197/80 to 197/200 would be within the believable span, so not necessarily that difficult to get it "right"... Especially since Raiden was active more than 20 years and reasonably must have fluctuated quite a lot in weight during that time.

Anyway, the important figure is height rather than weight, since weight tends to fluctuate over time, and he does seem to always be depicted as a tall man, even compared to other sumo wrestlers. Given that 197 is quite reasonable, and if wrong probably only a few centimetres wrong.

Edited February 21, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Asashosakari]

Now I am wondering who the Fuerst was?

Edited February 21, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Takanobaka]

Not that this particular article pertains to sumo (it's mostly about baseball), but it highlights many/most of my personal opinions as to why nothing to not much will be done about the problem, and the recent furor in America about steroids in general.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...whitlock/040220

[aderechelsea]

i am sure there is usage of steroids in ozumo as it is in all physical sports...... >:-D

the fact that Kyokai doesn't look too serious about doing something is based on their fear that the sport will face a huge slump.

I am not talking about going out public with the results they get from tests, but unofficially banning these drugs untill the "field" is clear and the official tests will be clean.......

this way they won't face displeasure from fans by the bad publicity but the reprecusions on the rikishis will be dramatic.Serious injuries,poor form and eminently lack of interest is their greatest fears.

We saw this in italian football when the steroids were "unofficially" banned and the form of italian teams in Europe (who dominated the european cups at that point) slumped for a few years.......

The same lack of action is noted in NFL,Baseball and less in the NBA because these sports are cecluded within their borders (as it is with sumo) and they have their own laws that fit their publicity plans and goals........