Itai's book translations

[Yubiquitoyama]

I have no real opinion about anything else than the list of current yaocho rikishi. The fact that Itai seems to have no connection whatsoever to sumo nowadays coupled with the fact that he used the old "everyone who knows sumo can tell what bouts are fixed"-statement makes the list very suspicious in my view. Furthermore it's quite remarkable that pretty much every "elevator rikishi" of the 90s have managed to get in there, and I think it's possible to be an elevator rikishi without yaocho... Furthermore, doesn't it seem very risky to introduce such a new an inexperienced rikishi as Akebono 1990 into this huge yaocho scheme? If that actually happened, wouldn't at least some of the many Juryo and Makunouchi rikishi in sumo who early on gets this thrown into their lap, tell the world out of indignation if nothing else?

EDIT: I think I should add that I'm in general very sceptical of yaocho allegations because I suspect them, even if they are true, to only be true in part and added or subtracted from relatively freely (which is quite easy for a single source who has nothing in particular to win in telling the truth and nothing but the truth). I'm actually much more sceptical to the allegations than I am regards the existence of yaocho.

Edited February 17, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

Personally, I don't doubt the truth of Itai's statements, but I question their accuracy.

What's the difference between truth and accuracy? Aren't they intertwined? Without accuracy (names, sums, dates etc.) there's nothing (for me at least). Nothing anyone can tell me will convince me about the existence of The Great Yaocho Scheme (as told about in Itai's book) unless it's a complete, accurate, infallible explanation that could stand the test of a trial. (That's the small lawyer inside me.) I'm far more inclined to believe in the existence of, say, sasquatch.

[Zentoryu]

Personally, I don't doubt the truth of Itai's statements, but I question their accuracy.

What's the difference between truth and accuracy? Aren't they intertwined? Without accuracy (names, sums, dates etc.) there's nothing (for me at least). Nothing anyone can tell me will convince me about the existence of The Great Yaocho Scheme (as told about in Itai's book) unless it's a complete, accurate, infallible explanation that could stand the test of a trial. (That's the small lawyer inside me.) I'm far more inclined to believe in the existence of, say, sasquatch.

That's the problem. We will likely never see a trial of any kind. We will probably never see any substantive evidence. Not unless any of the accused suddenly decide to fess up to the wrong doings. And that's not likely to happen because it wouldn't be in their best interests to do so (if they were indeed guilty of being a part of this supposed Yaocho scheme). Especially since so many of them are still associated with Sumo, or are making money off their Sumo "reputations." Why would they admit to it?

This is why I think a scheme like this could never be proven beyond a shade of doubt.

Mind you, I'm not saying I believe this stuff actually happened, I'm just saying that it would be pretty hard to prove without confessions of those involved, or the sudden discovery of a written record of yaocho dealings (which I somehow doubt these people would have been dumb enough to keep).

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

This is why I think a scheme like this could never be proven beyond a shade of doubt.

Didn't the guy say he has an audio tape about the meeting where rijicho urged the oyakata to get rid of yaocho? If the tape does exist, wouldn't it be trivial to prove everything?

Is someone interested in video files of UFO sightings? I have a lot of those on my hard drive. They're kind of cool and probably prove something. I don't want to believe, as Fox Mulder would have said.

[MongolPower]

There are so many exagerations it's hard to believe. Kyokushuzan didn't even start sumo until March 1992. He was not in Makuuchi division until Sept. 1996. Was Itai active in 1996?

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

Itai retired in September 1991.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

I corrected couple of accidental mistakes in the initial Amanogawa's translation (like "gachinko" to replace"yaocho" in one place etc.) on her behalf.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Forget Itai. If you want yaocho, go to India. No wonder Zenjimoto has his yaocho theories every now and then :-)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ng_040218104826

The last sentence of the article is dedicated to lawyers and people who foam about "give me 100% evidence!" hehehe.

Maybe koen to Calcutta soon? We need an Indian rikishi first though.

[Zentoryu]

This is why I think a scheme like this could never be proven beyond a shade of doubt.

Didn't the guy say he has an audio tape about the meeting where rijicho urged the oyakata to get rid of yaocho? If the tape does exist, wouldn't it be trivial to prove everything?

That's the question isn't it?

Does the tape exist?

This falls into the same catagory as "suddenly finding a written record of Yaocho dealings."

It would certainly go a long ways towards supporting Itai's story, if it did exist.

I somehow don't think it does though, but that's just me.

[Kashunowaka]

Forget Itai. If you want yaocho, go to India. No wonder Zenjimoto has his yaocho theories every now and then :-)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ng_040218104826

The last sentence of the article is dedicated to lawyers and people who foam about "give me 100% evidence!" hehehe.

Maybe koen to Calcutta soon? We need an Indian rikishi first though.

There seems to be a problem with the link.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ng_040218104826

Should work now..

[Zentoryu]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ng_040218104826

Should work now..

Good grief... (Eh?) :-O :-| :-) :-)

[Asashosakari]

Two Indian football teams each competing for promotion to a premier league scored 116 goals between them in separate matches after their opponents had clearly been paid off.

(...)

The Goa Football Asociation (GFA) had ordered simultaneous kick-offs for the two matches played at different venues Tuesday night, as the team scoring the most goals would be promoted to the premier league.

(...)

GFA secretary Savio Nessias suspended all four clubs, saying "they made a mockery of football."

It's quite clear that the ones really responsible for the whole bribery is the team who's going to be promoted now instead of those two high-scoring clubs. Really quite clever, the way they got rid of their competition.

hat>

:-)

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

The last sentence of the article is dedicated to lawyers and people who foam about "give me 100% evidence!" hehehe.

I'll keep on foaming. It's my inborn imperative. Regarding the existence of the aforementioned audio tape, who's holding breath hoping it will be found? Not me. :-)

[Takanobaka]

That's the problem. We will likely never see a trial of any kind. We will probably never see any substantive evidence. Not unless any of the accused suddenly decide to fess up to the wrong doings. And that's not likely to happen because it wouldn't be in their best interests to do so (if they were indeed guilty of being a part of this supposed Yaocho scheme). Especially since so many of them are still associated with Sumo, or are making money off their Sumo "reputations." Why would they admit to it?

This is why I think a scheme like this could never be proven beyond a shade of doubt.

Especially keeping in mind that baseball couldn't even get a conviction for a single Pete Rose where he did leave a paper trail...

[Guest Mongoruzan]

Wow, finally I found an "evidence" (I mean the Itai's writing) of yaocho in Japanese sumo!!!

In Mongolian wrestling, similar type of "yacho system" has been developed too and to around the same extent as described by Itai. Many (if not everybody) knows about such "wrestling match deals". And as Japanese sumo has grown to enormous popularity in Mongolia recently, many people wonder if the same system exists in Japan.

I am going to translate this article and put it up on the Mongolian forum... do I need to ask for permission from anyone, by the way? I mean copyrights and etc.

[Doitsuyama]

I am going to translate this article and put it up on the Mongolian forum... do I need to ask for permission from anyone, by the way? I mean copyrights and etc.

I'd be delighted, but only if you DON'T put it in a Mongolian forum. I visit them very rarely. ;-) I don't see any copyright problems as you are making a translation which shouldn't be a problem at all in this dimension.

[Asashosakari]

I am going to translate this article and put it up on the Mongolian forum... do I need to ask for permission from anyone, by the way? I mean copyrights and etc.

I'd be delighted, but only if you DON'T put it in a Mongolian forum. I visit them very rarely. ;-)

I believe Mongoruzan was talking about a Mongolian translation of Amanogawa's translation of Itai's book excerpt, not any new article...

[Guest Mongoruzan]

Yeah, that's right, Asashosakari-zeki. I meant Amanogawa's translation of Itai's book.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Amanogawa edited her translation a bit and I replaced the initial translation with her corrected translation. She said it should be most neutral now meaning her own views have been subdued and stripped from the nature of the translation completely (Sigh...) (not that there was much such elements in the initial one either...)

[Amanogawa]

I am going to translate this article and put it up on the Mongolian forum... do I need to ask for permission from anyone, by the way? I mean copyrights and etc.

I didn't ask anyone for any permission... but should I have done that? What would you think, Kotoseiya? (Weeping...) :-D

@Mongoruzan --could you give us the URL for the Mongolian (sumo?) forum, please? I tried a search, but couldn't make it. Thanks!

Edited February 23, 2004 by Amanogawa

[Yoavoshimaru]

That's the problem. We will likely never see a trial of any kind. We will probably never see any substantive evidence. Not unless any of the accused suddenly decide to fess up to the wrong doings. And that's not likely to happen because it wouldn't be in their best interests to do so (if they were indeed guilty of being a part of this supposed Yaocho scheme).  Especially since so many of them are still associated with Sumo, or are making money off their Sumo "reputations." Why would they admit to it?

This is why I think a scheme like this could never be proven beyond a shade of doubt.

Especially keeping in mind that baseball couldn't even get a conviction for a single Pete Rose where he did leave a paper trail...

There IS conclusive proof he gambled. But what he did was legal. Immoral, irresponsible, and highly damaging to the morals and ethics of the game. But legal at the time. Since then the rules have been changed suitably.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

What would you think, Kotoseiya? (Laughing...) :-(

I seem to recall the right to cite copyrighted works is not limited in absolutely defined terms. I doubt anyone would object your translation as it was relatively short and - if anything - profited the original writer by exposing more potential buyers to his book.

[Doyobi]

The most difficult position is around Maegashira5 where you're likely to

face all sanyaku and up. If you get heavy losses there, you'll possibly be

seriously demoted down to the end of Maku, while Maegashira-top or sanyaku

won't go down lower than the middle of Maku. You would "sell" ( not

"lend") your hoshi to ozeki & yokozuna when you're at M5. And you wouldn't

want to lend your hoshi to anyone when you're at M5 where you desperately

want KK. That means you won't get any hoshi paid back in the next

tournament, and it means you'll have an even more difficult basho awaiting

-- then what would you do at M5? Set up as many bouts as you can from the

beginning of the basho and lose as much as you can, and you won't have to

face ozeki or yokozuna after the middle of the tournament (

Shinpan-section and torikumi making judges wouldn't like to match high

rankers with losing maegashiras ). And then towards the final phase of

basho you'd ask those yaocho-rikishis to pay back the hoshi to you, which

hopefully keep your score from going too bad

Kakizoe was M5 in Hatsu basho, right? At least this time it doesn't really fit.

[Kashunowaka]

The most difficult position is around Maegashira5 where you're likely to

face all sanyaku and up. If you get heavy losses there, you'll possibly be

seriously demoted down to the end of Maku, while Maegashira-top or sanyaku

won't go down lower than the middle of Maku. You would "sell" ( not

"lend") your hoshi to ozeki & yokozuna when you're at M5. And you wouldn't

want to lend your hoshi to anyone when you're at M5 where you desperately

want KK. That means you won't get any hoshi paid back in the next

tournament, and it means you'll have an even more difficult basho awaiting

-- then what would you do at M5? Set up as many bouts as you can from the

beginning of the basho and lose as much as you can, and you won't have to

face ozeki or yokozuna after the middle of the tournament (

Shinpan-section and torikumi making judges wouldn't like to match high

rankers with losing maegashiras ). And then towards the final phase of

basho you'd ask those yaocho-rikishis to pay back the hoshi to you, which

hopefully keep your score from going too bad

Kakizoe was M5 in Hatsu basho, right? At least this time it doesn't really fit.

True. It depends on the banzuke situation - because so few rikishi in sanyaku and upper maegashira are in the same heya, rikishi around position 17-20 get a much easier schedule than they would otherwise. Kakizoe was the 18th ranked rikishi in Hatsu basho at M5E.

The Matrix (Laughing...) is very illuminating. Compare Kakizoe's schedule in Hatsu 2004 with (taken at random) Asanowaka at the same rank in Hatsu 1997.

If there are many sanyaku rikishi and few injuries (like in Kyushu 2000 for instance), M5 get a much easier time.