The best of the brothers

[Mark Buckton]

Appreciate all the comments above irrespective of how they disagree (said it before and will say it again - one of the pleaseures of existence is debate) but considering it from a strange point of view, in that I know how many (not all of course) Japanese feel based on the 'honor of Yokozuna' not just the results, I know how many non-Japanese feel (yourselves) and I, being one of 'you' living amidst 'them' am often confused but have been influenced moreso perhaps towards the rank not the results.

I also hold such a position in the Maru debate out of his longevity / Confucian attitudes that have influenced me as such. Contrary perhaps to that 'fast' career of Y Waka some may say but living side by side in much the same way as Japan has 110million Buddhists in addition to 107million Shintoists in a population of 127million?!?!?!

On the posts above - Yubi -san. more than interesting and wholly respect - guess you have 1 barrell still loaded

Fujisan, - personal preferences and tacking (as in sailing) is what debate is all about as theology shows in many hotspots around the globe - and pub (Arguing...) vs serious debate is as detached as the earth and the moon. A point I know you know.

Asa-san - this ""I'm perfectly able to make up my own mind without being led by the hand "" and other comments are the result of knowing little more than has already been said on a subject and trying to draw it to a close due to being unprepared to counter further. No barrells loaded as with Yubi-san above. Asa-san, this is not a disrespectful sentence to you at all but if you consider it honestly is it not the case?

As I said - no disrespect in that intended so don't misinterpret as such but I have never hidden from a sentence as many have. Outspoken perhaps, disrespectful unintentionally but clear in expressing opinion - always I hope. :-)

Lastly, to anyone reading this - sumo is evil (say some in Asia) but we all agree in our disagreement. Sumo is boring (ditto). Are we disagreeing because we are stupid, like to or are dangerous? Are we trying to lead others by the hand in participating on this forum in contrast to the popular opinion of sumo being boring? Can we defend sumo at a time it arguably needs it? The answer I hope is yes YES YES - but only if we can recognise our differences first. If we cannot then Sun Tzu's ideas will be played out on the global sumo community at a pace many will never recognise.

ANR :-P

Edited January 1, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Jesinofuji]

I voted for Takanohana.

Trying hard to look past the records of each, I still think Takanohana was the better Yokozuna. He was much much more than a Yokozuna, he was a great Yokozuna and a hero to people everywhere. Also, the quality of his Sumo was very Yokozuna-like. He never moved back or sideways. After surgeing foreward and taking the mawashi he proceded to, with perfect leverage, walk his opponent out to a yorikiri win.

Outside the ring. Well, I wasn't a big sumo fan back in the days so I can't reflect on that. But Takanohana seemed to command a respect among people that Waka, Maru, Shoryu and even Bono didn't. His status both inside and outside of the Kyokai is far greater than his brothers.

[Asashosakari]

Asa-san - this ""I'm perfectly able to make up my own mind without being led by the hand ""  and other comments are the result of knowing little more than has already been said on a subject and trying to draw it to a close due to being unprepared to counter further.  No barrells loaded as with Yubi-san above.

:-P

A few points in response:

1) Of course I'm going to make up my mind based on "little more than has already been said on a subject". However, that may still be quite a lot of information at my disposal (the extent of which you cannot possibly know, frankly) and you seem to imply that this is necessarily less information than I could have, if only I listened to you first. That may well be the case in specific discussions, but a wholesale assumption that you know more than I do doesn't fly well with me.

2) Furthermore, the implied assumption that what you're going to say hasn't "already been said on a subject" (otherwise, why make the argument that we're operating on insufficient information?) probably doesn't fly well with the forum as a whole either, as it serves to place you one level above the great unwashed masses who aren't you. As Zentoryu-zeki pointed out, we've all been around the block a few times as far as sumo is concerned. When it comes to questions which have been debated ad nauseam, such as whether Yokozuna X was better than Yokozuna Y (which has indeed been debated ad nauseam, even if you missed it), it's a reasonable assumption that we've all heard all the arguments before. A different assumption just makes you look silly, not us.

3) Indeed, I have wished I could have changed my vote in one or two polls here in the past, after forum members made such a convincing case for their choices that I had to reconsider mine. So I do not appreciate the notion that I'm just closing my mind and that I'm unprepared to counter your arguments further. To be blunt, nothing you've said in favour of Wakanohana has been even remotely enough to change my mind here because, while all very interesting (and I do appreciate it), it was also all very much peripheral to what I considered the essence of the poll question. That's a conscious decision on my part, yet again, you seem to imply that I didn't understand the question properly, simply because I'm giving different weight to what's central and what's peripheral to my decision-making.

4) I didn't even vote in the "Best American rikishi" poll, for the simple reason that, all things considered, Akebono and Musashimaru were sufficiently close in their career performances that I don't feel qualified to pick a clear "winner" among them. A tie wasn't an option in the poll, so I abstained. And yes, I did give it sufficient thought before making that decision. Yet your broad brushstroke that everyone who failed to place Musashimaru above Akebono must have failed to comprehend the question struck me as well as those who actually voted for Akebono, and I found it rather offensive at the time.

[sarcasm] Why single out the Akebono voters btw? Surely those people who voted for Takamiyama over both Akebono and Musashimaru must be even more deranged! [/sarcasm]

Asa-san, this is not a disrespectful sentence to you at all but if you consider it honestly is it not the case? 

As the above should amply demonstrate, no it's not, but thanks once again for trying to make up my mind before I have a chance to do it myself, by implying that if only I was honest with myself, I would agree with you. Ad hominems of that type (and it was hardly the first one) generally aren't conducive to a reasoned exchange of ideas, therefore I'm forced to wonder just who has closed off his mind here, no matter how often you're stating that you're interested in debate.

[Mark Buckton]

Asa-san,

On 1 - 4 - interesting thoughts - thank you. Somewhat indicative of my comment "trying to draw it to a close due to being unprepared to counter further" is it not though?

Defending your thought processes is fine - ignores the issue again though neh? Asa-san, you've gone against me on this poll which of course is fine BUT YOU HAVE NOT ONCE discussed your opinion on the issue / backbone / subject of the poll and when someone criticizes a critc without countering original thoughts I can only guess he or she is acting out of dislike alone - and without an in-depth knowledge of the subject on which to make their own opinion? What is your opinion?

And, this point of yours -""" sarcasm] Why single out the Akebono voters btw? Surely those people who voted for Takamiyama over both Akebono and Musashimaru must be even more deranged! [/sarcasm]"""

Takamiyama WAS the first non-Asian wasn't he? I've explained why before but as much respect as I have for Akebono he WASN'T the first in that respect, he had the opportunity to converse in a language he was fluent in with his stable master and whilst we have all suffered culture shock WAS NOT a ground-breaker at any level.

Also, read some of your books on sumo - carefully written but giving the implication of him not being first foreign Yokozuna either. First 'foreign born' yes (Sakhalin being a possession of Japan at the time Taiho was born) but first foreign - NO. Japanese themselves, not the traditionalists / old fashioned chappies aside now accept this more than some years ago.

Asa, you care not to deign us with your location but I can only assume from many of your posts that is detached from Japan. That in itself is nothing bad of course but to go so strongly on facts from books alone is nonsensical if it is the case. Sumo is as much about feeling as it is about winning to those whi 'invented / developed' it. I too rely on stats from books about things long before my time. I do, however, try to balance that with a degree of spirituality and belief about what sumo should be - not merely what it is.

Now, before you think this means 'we in Japan' are better and know more IT DOES NOT! It means there are different sides to sumo and that is one I am fortunate enough to try and obtain an understanding of. I have to, be it a help or a hindrance, consider stats as well as 'ideals' when I type - do you?

Smile. (In a state of confusion...)

ANR

[Mark Buckton]

shock WAS NOT a ground-breaker at any level. :-D

Shot myself in the foot with this above - I meant in a 'full or complete (I hesitate to use the word - pure) way'.

Yes - first foreign born but not first foreign. Linguistic hair splitting but reality methinks.

Apologies (In a state of confusion...)

ANR

[Zuikakuyama]

Ada, since you obviously do not agree with the opinion that Taka was the better yokozuna, and insists on pointing out the shallowness of our opinion, why dont you enlighten us further on why you think waka was the better yokozuna. Then perhaps we can be swayed.

So far you have only said that Japanese consider waka to be better (which in any event I somewhat doubt). That in itself is not enough. You have to tell us why the Japanese believe that, and convince us on the merits, not just say that we should be like blind lemmings and follow the japanese way.

You also pointed that having the balls to go 7-8 is also a good trait. I dont agree.

Anything else on the spiritual and untangible side?

[Yubiquitoyama]

:-D

shock WAS NOT a ground-breaker at any level. :-D

Shot myself in the foot with this above - I meant in a 'full or complete (I hesitate to use the word - pure) way'.

Yes - first foreign born but not first foreign.

Edited January 2, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Mark Buckton]

I voted for Takanohana.

Trying hard to look past the records of each, I still think Takanohana was the better Yokozuna. He was much much more than a Yokozuna, he was a great Yokozuna and a hero to people everywhere. Also, the quality of his Sumo was very Yokozuna-like. He never moved back or sideways. After surgeing foreward and taking the mawashi he proceded to, with perfect leverage, walk his opponent out to a yorikiri win.

Outside the ring. Well, I wasn't a big sumo fan back in the days so I can't reflect on that. But Takanohana seemed to command a respect among people that Waka, Maru, Shoryu and even Bono didn't. His status both inside and outside of the Kyokai is far greater than his brothers.

Jesinofuji-san,

on the sideways move I am guessing you mean the move of 'hatakikomi'. Agree with much of what you say but, to the best of my knowledge Takanohana did use this move almost 20 times as a Yokozuna - the first being to defeat Akebono on Day 15 in Nagoya (1995).

Used it pretty mucg regularly till say mid/late 97 then (perhaps told not to) ceased for a while and only used it sparingly in his remaining years.

A time, coincidentally perhaps that he started using 'hikiotoshi' much more.

ANR

[Mark Buckton]

shock WAS NOT a ground-breaker at any level. :-D

Shot myself in the foot with this above - I meant in a 'full or complete (I hesitate to use the word - pure) way'.

Yes - first foreign born but not first foreign.  Linguistic hair splitting but reality methinks.

Apologies  (In a state of confusion...)

ANR

I don't really understand this. What you are basically saying is that if I would move out from where I was born to another part of the country and the place I was born in was captured by the evil Norwegians ([Leno] No, don't write me any letters, I have nothing against Norwegians [/Leno]), I despite having been born in Sweden, still living in Sweden and still having ancestors all being born in Sweden, suddenly becomes a foreigner? That sounds like dangerous thinking to me... :-D

Hello Yubi-san,

apologies to yourself or others if you have heard this before (think I did it a while ago) but it goes like this.

Japan was and still is a very paternalistically legal society. Not just in thinking but in law.

So, not to bore you with the reality - location of birth mattered not to Japan until very relatively recently. Still doesn't in that a baby born of 2 non-Japanese in Japan cannot be claimed as Japanese - a point many 3rd and 4th generation Koreans can vouch for. Naturalisation is a possibility later nowadays only if initial nationality is denounced.

Parentage was (till 1985 or 86 - memory is going) everything.

So, to the crux. Only children with a Japanese father could claim Japanese nationality. Taiho, regardless of birthplace had a Ukranian fater and Japanese mother and in a society that then, still now to a smaller degree, sees foreign blood as 'impure' was a lucky cookie in benefitting from the NSK 'registration' of choice rules. He could never legally be regarded as Japanese until 1985/86.

Twould be interesting to see when they were intro'd BTW - such knowledge being beyond me.

ANR

[Zentoryu]

Jesinofuji-san,

on the sideways move I am guessing you mean the move of 'hatakikomi'. Agree with much of what you say but, to the best of my knowledge Takanohana did use this move almost 20 times as a Yokozuna - the first being to defeat Akebono on Day 15 in Nagoya (1995).

Used it pretty mucg regularly till say mid/late 97 then (perhaps told not to) ceased for a while and only used it sparingly in his remaining years.

A time, coincidentally perhaps that he started using 'hikiotoshi' much more.

ANR

Taka used Hatakikomi 21 times and Hikiotoshi 18 times in 917 Makuuchi bouts.

Waka used Hatakikomi 35 times (including NINE times during his brief run as a Yokozuna!) and Hikiotoshi 20 times in 736 Makuuchi bouts.

So if we're going to say something about Taka for using that technique, lets say something about his brother, who used it far more frequently than he did, as well.

[Asashosakari]

On 1 - 4

Edited January 2, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton]

Jesinofuji-san,

on the sideways move I am guessing you mean the move of 'hatakikomi'.  Agree with much of what you say but, to the best of my knowledge Takanohana did use this move almost 20 times as a Yokozuna - the first being to defeat Akebono on Day 15 in Nagoya (1995).

Used it pretty mucg regularly till say mid/late 97 then (perhaps told not to) ceased for a while and only used it sparingly in his remaining years.

A time, coincidentally perhaps that he started using 'hikiotoshi' much more.

ANR

Taka used Hatakikomi 21 times and Hikiotoshi 18 times in 917 Makuuchi bouts.

Waka used Hatakikomi 35 times (including NINE times during his brief run as a Yokozuna!) and Hikiotoshi 20 times in 736 Makuuchi bouts.

So if we're going to say something about Taka for using that technique, lets say something about his brother, who used it far more frequently than he did, as well.

Zentoryu-san,

Jesinofuji was referring to Taka not Waka.

Should have included the figures though for both but including Waka's in comparison to his length of time as a Yokozuna - highlighted - and Taka's in comparison to his total bouts speaks volumes. Sorry - cheap psychology - eye level shelves at the supermarket et all.

Figures show anything - consider.

In Burmese elections some years back Aung Sun Suu Kyii (spelling probably terrible) won the polpular vote yet is not in power.

In the US Gore beat Bush but who is Pres?

Similar - of course in as far as figures vs winners go but in reality worlds apart.

ANR

[Mark Buckton]

Asa-san

"I generally enjoy your very informative posts over in the Ozumo discussions subforum.

Moving on..."

thank you and yes - let's

ANR

[Zentoryu]

Zentoryu-san,

Jesinofuji was referring to Taka not Waka.

Should have included the figures though for both but including Waka's in comparison to his length of time as a Yokozuna - highlighted - and Taka's in comparison to his total bouts speaks volumes.

I know damn well who he was talking about, I'm not stupid.

For someone who claims to enjoy debate, you just can't help saying insulting things to people.

Speaks volumes about what?

You were pointing out how many times Taka, the person you've been arguing against, used it. I pointed out how many times Waka used it in order to be fair to Taka. Simple enough to understand don't you think?

To be fair to Waka, now I'll point out how many times Taka used it as a Yokozuna:

13 times in 7 years as a Yokozuna.

Oh BTW, look closely, you'll notice I DID include Waka's total number of career bouts in the figures.

Like Asa, I'm done with this stupid argument. Time indeed to move on...

Edited January 2, 2004 by Zentoryu

[Mark Buckton]

Zentoryu-san,

Jesinofuji was referring to Taka not Waka.

Should have included the figures though for both but including Waka's in comparison to his length of time as a Yokozuna - highlighted - and Taka's in comparison to his total bouts speaks volumes.

I know damn well who he was talking about, I'm not stupid.

For someone who claims to enjoy debate, you just can't help saying insulting things to people.

Speaks volumes about what?

You were pointing out how many times Taka, the person you've been arguing against, used it. I pointed out how many times Waka used it in order to be fair to Taka. Simple enough to understand don't you think?

To be fair to Waka, now I'll point out how many times Taka used it as a Yokozuna:

13 times in 7 years as a Yokozuna.

Oh BTW, look closely, you'll notice I DID include Waka's total number of career bouts in the figures.

Like Asa, I'm done with this stupid argument. Time indeed to move on...

To be very fair to Waka Zentoryu-san I'll give you the real figures (except that it has just slipped my mind with me in half work mode) so will have to content you with saying that this

To be fair to Waka, now I'll point out how many times Taka used it as a Yokozuna:

13 times in 7 years as a Yokozuna. (In a state of confusion...) :-D :-D

is simply not true. If the figures I have are correct and I believe they are - 13 times in his first 2.5 yrs as Yokozuna yes - in 7 no methinks.

He used it at least 5, perhaps 6 more times after his first 2 and a half years.

If I am wrong I will apologise - if not ....

ANR :-P

[Zentoryu]

He used it at least 5, perhaps 6 more times after his first 2 and a half years.

If I am wrong I will apologise - if not ....

ANR (In a state of confusion...)

Well, you are wrong... :-D

Check for yourself:

http://www.szumo.hu/stat/Takanohana.html

Every one of his bouts as a Sekitori and a Yokozuna is listed here. Unless I counted wrong, he used Hatakikomi 21 times overall and at least 13 times (I may be off by one) from his first basho ranked as a Yokozuna in Hatsu 1995 until the end of his active career. He had been a Yokozuna for four basho before even using Hatakikomi to win a bout.

[Mark Buckton]

He used it at least 5, perhaps 6 more times after his first 2 and a half years. 

If I am wrong I will apologise - if not ....

ANR (Nodding yes...)

Well, you are wrong... :-P

Check for yourself:

http://www.szumo.hu/stat/Takanohana.html

Every one of his bouts as a Sekitori and a Yokozuna is listed here. Unless I counted wrong, he used Hatakikomi 21 times overall and at least 13 times (I may be off by one) from his first basho ranked as a Yokozuna in Hatsu 1995 until the end of his active career. He had been a Yokozuna for four basho before even using Hatakikomi to win a bout.

Good call Zentoryu - off by one indeed but looks like your stats beat my notes.

To that end I apologise. :-)

As my maths teacher always said - ANR - you're crap with numbers. I am so I'll leave such stats to you from now Zentoryu. I'll just go out and have the experiences.

:-P

[Mark Buckton]

Ada, since you obviously do not agree with the opinion that Taka was the better yokozuna, and insists on pointing out the shallowness of our opinion, why dont you enlighten us further on why you think waka was the better yokozuna. Then perhaps we can be swayed.

So far you have only said that Japanese consider waka to be better (which in any event I somewhat doubt). That in itself is not enough. You have to tell us why the Japanese believe that, and convince us on the merits, not just say that we should be like blind lemmings and follow the japanese way.

You also pointed that having the balls to go 7-8 is also a good trait. I dont agree.

Anything else on the spiritual and untangible side?

Z-san,

if you are asking to be led others would do a better job. I am unable to give the answers you need for I learn every day to increase that which I think I understand today.

Such a comment doesn't fit so nicely into the statto's sumo yearbook and only comes with time spent 'in theatre' I guess.

As Fox M said - the truth is out there and as regards sumo it is too. What you see sumo as is up to you. To give you a pointer but only a pointer look at Shintoism, look at the role Buddhism plays in both Japan and sumo. Look at Japanese idols of today and compare them to yesterday. (Nodding yes...) Try haiku.

There are many ways to feel and approach sumo but I find the best to be through trying to comprehend its 'inventors' and their culture.

:-) ANR

in short - it is important to find your own answers and not to just ask others.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Ada, since you obviously do not agree with the opinion that Taka was the better yokozuna, and insists on pointing out the shallowness of our opinion, why dont you enlighten us further on why you think waka was the better yokozuna.

Edited January 3, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Mark Buckton]

:-) Yubi-san,

you said this "I must say I really don't understand this answer" then go on to judge - wholly incorrectly, the thoughts behind my answer.

Do yourself a favor in accepting you didn't understand what I wrote and leave it at that. Do me a favor as well if you would and get some better manners than you have just displayed.

You make judgements as do we all but if you but whilst I regard your answer herein with respect - linguistically above all else, you have before ignored my questions to yourself and only yesterday called my explaination of Taiho's situation warped and dangerous thinking. Yet again I answered and I explained Japanese law to you and you ignored the answer without the manners to offer thanks.

Bad manners therefore may be your forte and I believe they are Zentoryu's too having seen his little outburst (linguistically speaking) yesterday in addition to his tag team attack on Zenjimoto-san a while back.

Yubi - the judgements you make are wrong but they are your opinion. Expressing opinions is one thing but find one case (Asa-san analyses my posts carefully so ask him) where I launch direct accusations and am as arrogant as you in 'telling' me what I do and think. This post notwithstanding.

:-P

ANR - a man at the bosses disposal with this post. R-san has but to ask for my resignation from the forum and he has it. (Nodding yes...)

[Zuikakuyama]

Lets all calm down a bit and drop this discussion altogether as nothing constructive is being accomplished.

Sumo is above of all these bickerings. (Hugging...)

[Mark Buckton]

Lets all calm down a bit and drop this discussion altogether as nothing constructive is being accomplished.

Sumo is above of all these bickerings. (Hugging...)

Fair call Zuikakuyama-san

Agree and will do so - effective now B-)

ANR

[Rijicho]

I unlocked this topic to add my comment. After posting this I'll lock it again. Comments about that to Public Feedback, please.

-------------

I have been unable to follow Adachinoryu's line of reasoning. For the life of mine I can't understand how anyone could possibly regard Wakanohana as the better yokozuna of the Hanada brothers. Looking at the poll numbers it looks like no one else here understands it either.

It's perfectly possible that clear majority of the Japanese regard Waka as the better one. It's also perfectly possible that if I were to move to Japan, I'd somehow gain some additional inside enlightment to understand why it is so fancy to keep climbing onto the dohyo night after night one thigh kaputt and despoil one's exalted rank against the repeated wishes by one's elders. Somehow I doubt it.

I haven't studied Shintoish, Buddhism and haiku. I know beforehand my limited brain capabilities will find there no support for Wakanohana's greatness. You're waging a losing battle here. I doubt anyone here is able to understand what you're after. I understand the frustrations displayed by several other forum members on this thread.

If you're comfortable with discussing about sumo here on this forum with people unable to understand your esoteric knowledge about sumo, please go on. If not, you'll reach your own conclusions. I am not going to dispel anyone based on this thread alone.

Time to move on?

Edited January 3, 2004 by Rijicho