Banzuke topics

[Kashunowaka]

Banzuke topics are interesting (as usual nowadays).

Kokkai's break-in on the "Least Tournaments to Makuuchi debut" list puts him in very illustrious company indeed. Everyone on the list went on to be yokozuna and ozeki - with the notable exception of #1 Kotetsuyama (Itai). I don't know much about Itai. He seems to be most famous for his yaocho allegations a few years back. His basho records from 1980-81 seem to indicate that injuries spoiled his chances of reaching a higher rank than he did (komusubi).

Will Kokkai be a new Akebono, or is he a Tosanoumi? Time will tell.

Under "Juryo Debut - Roho" I learn that Roho is the 14th sekitori out of Taiho-beya since the heya was established in 1971. 14 sekitori in 32 years! That's a pretty miserable record, isn't it? Let's hope that Odake oyakata (Takatoriki) can be more successful.

[QttP]

Under "Juryo Debut - Roho" I learn that Roho is the 14th sekitori out of Taiho-beya since the heya was established in 1971. 14 sekitori in 32 years! That's a pretty miserable record, isn't it? Let's hope that Odake oyakata (Takatoriki) can be more successful.

Let's hope that Odake-beya's success will start with Roho reaching the rank of yokozuna.

And Kokkai too.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

14 sekitori in 32 years! That's a pretty miserable record, isn't it?

I have no statistics to back my impression but almost a sekitori every other year... Isn't that an unusually good number?!?!? Aren't there oyakata who have never raised a sekitori in several decades!?!? Or am I hallucinating again?

[Asashosakari]

14 sekitori in 32 years! That's a pretty miserable record, isn't it?

I have no statistics to back my impression but almost a sekitori every other year... Isn't that an unusually good number?!?!? Aren't there oyakata who have never raised a sekitori in several decades!?!? Or am I hallucinating again?

I'm similarly statistics-less on the matter, but my immediate reaction pretty much mirrors Kotoseiya's. One sekitori every other year (on average) probably wouldn't be terribly impressive for the big, long-running heyas like Sadogatake, Musashigawa or Dewanoumi, but for a heya established from scratch, it seems perfectly alright. I think it's important to remember that a new shisho will often spend close to a decade just raising his first sekitori, let alone several more.

[Fujisan]

Roho and Kokkais records and career seem to mirror each other or is it me?

Is this the coming of the age of the old soviet block Rikishi?

[Asashosakari]

Now that I've read the banzuke topics (in between watching Eurosport's broadcast of Kyushu), a few random stream-of-consciousness notes...

I vaguely remembered Roho having a really good run up to Juryo, but I didn't realize he was that quick...#5 on the all-time list, quite impressive.

The two "fewest tournaments to Juryo/Makuuchi debut" tables are quite intriguing in two ways, one being that (save for Roho, yet) they feature the exact same ten rikishi, and the other being that those ten rikishi, for all their dominance of the toriteki divisions, had rather different times in Juryo: From only two basho spent in Juryo (Musashimaru, Asashoryu) all the way up to six (Asahifuji and the aforementioned Itai), with the others falling in between those extremes. I wonder which way Roho will go...

On the question of whether Taiho was or wasn't a successful shisho, I'm feeling somewhat confirmed in my thought that he was quite alright as shisho go, due to the following:

Juryo Debut - Daimanazuru - This is the first Juryo Division debut out of Asahiyama Beya since Daihisho was promoted for the 1995 March Grand Sumo Tournament. It is also the first Juryo debut since the present oyakata (former Ozeki Daiju) took over the heya on May 29th, 1997.

Juryo Debut - Hakuho - This is the fourth Juryo Division debut out of Miyagino Beya since the present oyakata (former Maegashira #13 Chikubayama) took over the heya on June 20th, 1989 following Kengaku, Wakahayato and Kobo, who was promoted for the 1999 January Grand Sumo Tournament.

So that's one in six years for Asahiyama Oyakata, and four in almost 15 years for Miyagino Oyakata, and neither had the inherent disadvantages of starting up a completely new heya.

In the interest of fairness, it's also possible to be vastly better than that, as Oitekaze-beya shows:

Makuuchi Debut - Kokkai - This is the third Makuuchi debut out of Oitekaze Beya since the present oyakata (former Maegashira #2 Daishoyama) reestablished the heya on October 1st, 1998 following Hayateumi and the first since Hamanishiki (now competing in the Juryo Division) was promoted to the top division for the 2001 May Grand Sumo Tournament.

Three Makuuchi debuts out of a new heya in five years, not bad, even if one considers that the first two had the benefit of Makushita Tsukedashi starts.

And on the note of Makushita tsukedashi, I noticed the following:

Tamanoshima is the nineteenth former collegian competitor to make his sekiwake debut since Yamanishiki was promoted for the 1927 October Grand Sumo Tournament and the first since Tochinonada was promoted for the 2001 March Grand Sumo Tournament.

As a former top ranked collegian competitor Tamanoshima was allowed to make his professional debut from the Makushita Division. It took him thirty-six tournaments from this special debut to reach sekiwake, putting him in fourth place for the slowest rise up the ranks among the eighteen rikishi in this debut category.

Interesting that no college rikishi starting from maezumo has made it to Sekiwake since Yamanishiki did...wonder if that might change in the next few years with the tightened Tsukedashi regulations.

Edit: Have there been any such college rikishi who made it to Komusubi, at least? I know Tochinohana's one...any others?

Edited December 26, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Kashunowaka]

14 sekitori in 32 years! That's a pretty miserable record, isn't it?

I have no statistics to back my impression but almost a sekitori every other year... Isn't that an unusually good number?!?!? Aren't there oyakata who have never raised a sekitori in several decades!?!? Or am I hallucinating again?

Hm, I guess you guys are right. It is probably better than average. There is a lot of small heyas, and a few big ones.

Incidentally, Taiho-beya's first sekitori Ozutsu (Tateyama Oyakata) became the most successful so far: 3 basho as sekiwake, 11 basho as sanyaku. And 15 years as sekitori.

Edited December 27, 2003 by Kashunowaka

[Naganoyama]

Now that I've read the banzuke topics (in between watching Eurosport's broadcast of Kyushu)

Just making me jealous - British Eurosport have cancelled the only Kyushu coverage (one hour this evening) that they previously had scheduled. Are they ever going to show Sumo again?

(Depressed...)

[Yubiquitoyama]

14 sekitori in 32 years! That's a pretty miserable record, isn't it?

I have no statistics to back my impression but almost a sekitori every other year... Isn't that an unusually good number?!?!? Aren't there oyakata who have never raised a sekitori in several decades!?!? Or am I hallucinating again?

Hm, I guess you guys are right. It is probably better than average. There is a lot of small heyas, and a few big ones.

Incidentally, Taiho-beya's first sekitori Ozutsu (Tateyama Oyakata) became the most successful so far: 3 basho as sekiwake, 11 basho as sanyaku. And 15 years as sekitori.

14 sekitori is pretty good yes, but I would still not call Taiho a successful oyakata. Almost none of them have reached sanyaku (actually only Odzutsu), and most have only reached Juryo (10 out of 14). Taiho was a very popular rikishi and had virtually first pick on new deshi for several years, and still didn't manage to get someone to Ozeki or higher, even from the start, and for the last few years it has been much worse than that. Before Roho, Taiho-beyas latest new sekitori was Daiden... ;-)

Actually, none of the greatest yokozunas of the last 40 years have had much success as oyakata, despite them likely having more prospects calling at the door than less known oyakatas.

Edited December 27, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Fujisan]

I sent Eurosport an email asking them why they had withdrawn it from the scedule(Is against the law to send abusive emails?) but haven't had,nor do I expect a reply from people who put programmes on that they THINK SHOULD be popular and not what is.

[Asashosakari]

14 sekitori is pretty good yes, but I would still not call Taiho a successful oyakata. Almost none of them have reached sanyaku (actually only Odzutsu), and most have only reached Juryo (10 out of 14). Taiho was a very popular rikishi and had virtually first pick on new deshi for several years, and still didn't manage to get someone to Ozeki or higher, even from the start, and for the last few years it has been much worse than that. Before Roho, Taiho-beyas latest new sekitori was Daiden... B-)

Actually, none of the greatest yokozunas of the last 40 years have had much success as oyakata, despite them likely having more prospects calling at the door than less known oyakatas.

Thanks for the additional insights. :-) I was actually quite a bit confused at first to read that Taiho had managed to raise 14 sekitori in his oyakata career, considering I had always had the impression that he was just gosh-awful as a stablemaster. (Not to mention that the heya currently only has 6 deshi.) Then I read the part about Roho being his first new sekitori in almost 10 years, which put it all into perspective. ;-)

Perhaps the moral is that in the long run, an important heya name (Takasago, Sadogatake, etc.) counts for more than the oyakata's active career. Of course, Mihogaseki, Nishonoseki and a few other heyas are probably counter-evidence to that...

So, any predictions for how Takanohana Oyakata will turn out, anyone? :-(

[Kashunowaka]

So, any predictions for how Takanohana Oyakata will turn out, anyone? ;-)

Judging from other sports, being a successful athlete doesn't guarantee that you will be a successful trainer or manager. And vice versa; there are some very good trainers who never had a successful active career.

I don't know what it takes to run a heya, but I assume that good leadership and a strong personality are important. And I am not sure whether Takanohana really has a personality. I have difficulties seeing him as a successful shisho. On the other hand, his father was very successful.

[Gernobono]

Then I read the part about Roho being his first new sekitori in almost 10 years, which put it all into perspective.

maybe roho is in taiho-beya because of the rule any heya just is allowed one foreignborn rikishi....

does anyone know if taiho-beya is affiliated to any famous heya as the heya was (i forgot the name) where ryan evans went to?...they allways trained with tomozuna-beya as he told after returning....

[Asashosakari]

maybe roho is in taiho-beya because of the rule any heya just is allowed one foreignborn rikishi....

Yes, I understand that's the case - see this interview with Roho and Hakurozan, translated by our very own Manekineko earlier this year. ;-)

[Yubiquitoyama]

So, any predictions for how Takanohana Oyakata will turn out, anyone? ;-)

Judging from other sports, being a successful athlete doesn't guarantee that you will be a successful trainer or manager. And vice versa; there are some very good trainers who never had a successful active career.

I don't know what it takes to run a heya, but I assume that good leadership and a strong personality are important. And I am not sure whether Takanohana really has a personality. I have difficulties seeing him as a successful shisho. On the other hand, his father was very successful.

Personally I think, without having too much support for it, that the best rikishi can have difficulty raising young ones because they themselves, being exceptional in one way or another, will have had much different problems (if problems at all), than most run-of-the mill rikishi. They simply do not have the same experiences as their deshi and therefore will not necessarily give the best advice.

Even so, having a more or less famous name or heading a well-known stable is also important.

Therefore I think that the stable-bosses with most success are likely those with a long career (having all kinds of experiences of pulling through rough periods), but still having a famous enough name to get a big stable or be known among youngsters. In other words: Long-time Ozekis and late-made yokozunas.

Not Takanohana...

Edited December 27, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Tokimori]

So, any predictions for how Takanohana Oyakata will turn out, anyone? ;-)

Judging from other sports, being a successful athlete doesn't guarantee that you will be a successful trainer or manager. And vice versa; there are some very good trainers who never had a successful active career.

I don't know what it takes to run a heya, but I assume that good leadership and a strong personality are important. And I am not sure whether Takanohana really has a personality. I have difficulties seeing him as a successful shisho. On the other hand, his father was very successful.

Personally I think, without having too much support for it, that the best rikishi can have difficulty raising young ones because they themselves, being exceptional in one way or another, will have had much different problems (if problems at all), than most run-of-the mill rikishi. They simply do not have the same experiences as their deshi and therefore will not necessarily give the best advice.

Even so, having a more or less famous name or heading a well-known stable is also important.

Therefore I think that the stable-bosses with most success are likely those with a long career (having all kinds of experiences of pulling through rough periods), but still having a famous enough name to get a big stable or be known among youngsters. In other words: Long-time Ozekis and late-made yokozunas.

Not Takanohana...

Kotonowaka comes to mind...

[Kashunowaka]

Kotonowaka comes to mind...

You think he will be a late-made yokozuna?! Just kidding ... ;-)

Yes, Kotonowaka could very well be a successful oyakata. The heya is already quite successful, and he seems like a nice chap himself.

Yubiquitoyama doesn't quite describe Kotonowaka though - rather Musashigawa, Sadogatake, Takasago and Futagoyama. All long-time ozeki, two of them eventually yokozuna.

[Asashosakari]

Yubiquitoyama doesn't quite describe Kotonowaka though - rather Musashigawa, Sadogatake, Takasago and Futagoyama. All long-time ozeki, two of them eventually yokozuna.

One could say that Kotonowaka's extreme longevity and experience makes up for his lack of rank achieved, though. Name recognition definitely shouldn't be lacking after a near 15-year career as sekitori. ;-)

And to add one more name, I think Naruto qualifies under Yubi's description as well. Didn't have quite as long a career at the very top, but also 11 years as sekitori and a rather late promotion to Yokozuna.

Edited December 27, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton]

Regarding Kokkai, but from a different angle than has been seen above - the Japanese English language media has already branded him the new 'bad-boy' of sumo. ;-)

For what reason I am unaware at this point but his nationality and his upsetting the locals could well be reason enough. Admittedly he does 'seem' somewhat aggressive close up :-) when fighting and he does gesture when he wins - even pats a few blokes bottys or shoulders but 'bad boy' - Asashoryu has a friend. :-)

PS - for any of you interested in the Oitekaze Jan 25th (post basho) party - Yen10k will get you a ticket - in Asakusa (to the north-west slightly of Ryogoku) and on the very snazzy homepage they have set up.

ANR

Edited December 27, 2003 by Adachinoryu

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

And I am not sure whether Takanohana really has a personality. I have difficulties seeing him as a successful shisho.

I've never understood this talk about personality as I've personally never needed one. Several successful athletes never needed such a burden as personality (whatever it's thought to be) although if you asked examples, I have only few to give. ;-)

What should Takanohana have done to have earned a personality during his active career? This might be a cultural thing but to me it seemed he had more of this personality stuff than most of the makuuchi combined.

I would certainly not be surprised at all to see his deshi climb the banzuke faster than just about anybody elses'.

[Fujisan]

Im sure Takanohana had a personality but Im not sure that I liked the one he had- He should've swapped it.

[Yubiquitoyama]

And I am not sure whether Takanohana really has a personality. I have difficulties seeing him as a successful shisho.

I've never understood this talk about personality as I've personally never needed one. Several successful athletes never needed such a burden as personality (whatever it's thought to be) although if you asked examples, I have only few to give. :-)

What should Takanohana have done to have earned a personality during his active career? This might be a cultural thing but to me it seemed he had more of this personality stuff than most of the makuuchi combined.

I would certainly not be surprised at all to see his deshi climb the banzuke faster than just about anybody elses'.

Well, "personality" is a very subjective word. I very much doubt people in your surroundings would agree that you completely lack personality, Kotoseiya-san :-)

Anyway, although I am very careful about ever using such a word, I think I understand more or less what Kashunowaka-san means. To me, Takanohana always came out a little bleak, which isn't very unusual for top athletes for some reason. I usually compare him to Tiger Woods and Pete Sampras, both of which are/were great, and both of which I find enormously boring, even compared to others in their respective sports... ;-)

Edited December 28, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

I much prefer bleakness ;-) as I tend to equal stoicism with charisma. That was Takanohana personified, wasn't he?

[Asashosakari]

I much prefer bleakness ;-) as I tend to equal stoicism with charisma. That was Takanohana personified, wasn't he?

I don't really have an opinion on whether Takanohana's usual mode of behaviour constitutes a personality (although I know what Yubi-zeki means; I used to have the exact same reaction to Pete Sampras), however the sticking point here is whether Taka can parlay that into becoming a successful coach. Somehow I don't think stoicism will really cut it there, unless it's the Confuzian kind where superior wisdom makes up for the lack of personal interaction. And an especially skilled okamisan (or perhaps other oyakata) who'd need to handle a larger burden of the emotional bonding with the deshi than normal probably would be a good idea, too...

[Manekineko]

I personally think that Fujishima oyakata (Rolling Stone fan moto-Akinoshima) will stay with Takanohana-oyakata to aid him with the deshi. Now there is a man who took the hard road and who will be able to train a yokozuna...

Unless, of course, Fujishima has higher ambitions and splits off in a heya of his own. But his name will be a much lesser magnet to young prospects than Takanohana's is, so...