Will Tochiazuma win Yokozuna promotion in Jan '04

[Zentoryu]

Lack of sense of humor and light-heartedness can be a real problem in this forum sometimes...

You guys need to lighten up a bit and stop taking everything super-serious... especially yourselves! (Laughing...)

This comment reminds me of someone else I once had a problem with on this forum. :-)

You bring up something controversial and unfounded, starting a heated debate, and when someone calls you on it, the response is "you don't have a sense of humor", or "you need to lighten up." I'm sorry Zenji, I really like you as a person, but this sort of dismissive response is... well irritating. (Sign of disapproval)

[Zenjimoto]

See what I mean (Laughing...)

At least I don't call people annoying, irritating, bizarre, logic-insulting, or "lower my opinion" of people like I'm a friggin judge of somebody or something. I clearly stated that I do not wish to be inflammatory, if some one can't take that at face value, I guess they'll have to live with it. If we can't have a little speculation here and there, but are just allowed to talk about politically correct facts, then what's the point of having a free discussion forum amongst friends. All we need then is the statistics archive, cause there are the provable facts. Yaaaaawn!

If you don't agree that there is the possibility of something intriguing or maybe mysterious going on behind the scenes here, then so be it. Your lack of imagination is excused. (Blushing...) I told you there is no proof, and that I don't even believe it, or at least not want to believe it, so there is no need for any self-proclaimed fact police to ask for non-existant "evidence" or "call me on" anything regarding this little item of fan fiction. So, take a look at it, snicker, and move on! What's the big deal? :-)

Get over it, folks. Time to move on! ;-)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Edited December 3, 2003 by Zenjimoto

[Asashosakari]

See what I mean :-)

Actually, no I don't. You're in effect asking people to only take you serious when it's convenient for you. Under those circumstances, as people otherwise run the risk of being dismissed as "having no sense of humor" (nice way to further advance that "free discussion" btw), I suspect Yubi wouldn't be the only one who'd simply stop taking you serious altogether. After all, who wants to accidentally take you serious and respond in a thoughtful way, only to be told that oops, they just completely wasted their time?

Edited December 3, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Zenjimoto]

Convenient in what way? To do what? Do I have a track record of seriousness convenientism? If so, where is the evidence? (Blushing...)

Why does it have to be so black OR white? I can't do more than use a load of smilies, ne? That's what they are for... such are the trappings of e-text. :-)

How about closing this thread, Boss? I wouldn't want any more people to get mortally annoyed by this essentially harmless issue that is getting blown out of proportion for all the wrong reasons... (Laughing...)

Edited December 3, 2003 by Zenjimoto

[Jesinofuji]

As for our Rijicho's attitude towards Asashouryuu, I vehemently disagree. I think it was unbased , just plain hatred for a young kid who suddenly finds himself in a position no one prepared him for very quickly. I find this kind of attack grossly unfair, but everyone is entitled to his opinion, as we all know. Anyhow, it seems all Finns hate him for some mysterious reason..

I readily admit my stance on him is a very emotional one just like it was with Senna da Silva and is with elder Schumacher. I simply can't stand extraordinary sportsmen behave the way those three do or did. The combination of greatness and repulsiveness infuriates me. As if it were some kind of evil deviation in the course of the world.

Asashoryu is an exceptional rikishi in many ways and thoroughly deserves his yokozuna rank judged by his performances alone. He's a young guy who got famous too fast for his own good.

Even if I take all this into account, I simply can't stand his antics. Did anyone in recent times behave like him? (I do have one (bad?) candidate.) His behaviour is simply inexcusable, not worthy of a jonokuchi let alone a yokozuna. He won't change. I've known far too many people like him. None of them has changed. They have this inherent idea about their superiority over all life on Earth. I hate them. Always have, always will.

BTW, all Finns should probably be both Finns.

Why am I getting into this. This thread has multiple topics now and has pretty much boiled down to a flame war. Well here goes.

I think your being too hard on Asashoryu. Sure he's done some pretty nasty things that arn't going to look good on his report card. So do all people in their early 20s. Asashoryu is a good person. He is a kindhearted, friendly human being, a very very good natured person. He just has a bad temper. Have you ever gotten angry at something and lost your cool? Who on this forum has never out of anger done something that they later regret. I think most people have. Its a part of being human.What Asashoryu has done was not that bad. Compared to *some* professional atheletes, his occasional incidents have been outright trivial. He is no evil deviation. Just a kind-hearted, but hot tempered kid.

And how long will it take for him to live this down. His hinkaku of late has been perfect. Will the anti-Asashoryu grudge remain for the rest of his career even if he continues to hold true to the ideal of his rank?

[Jesinofuji]

TYhe last post was in response the the Asashoryu bashing topic in this thread, now its time to tackle the Yaocho topic... :-)

Match fixing happens in Sports. Few if any sports ahve been completely untouched by it throughout their histories. Remember the world cup? There was unquestionable evidence that Korea rigged the games. Anyone who disagrees must not have watched the matches or is Korean and can't admit the plain truth. But without seeing some strong evidence showing that it did occour in Sumo this tourney, I'm going to have no choice but to assume it didn't. Because otherwise any match could be assumed to be Yaocho and Sumo would lose all its entertainment value. And if we dont see evidence then we will never know whether its true or not. I'd rathjer just watch the matches that always worry about whether they are being rigged.

This time there was a question about why Asashoryu faced Tochiazuma on the last day dispite Azuma not being the top ranked Ozeki. There was clear motivation for the Kyokai to do this because when the torikumi was made Asashoryu and Tochi were the leaders and they wanted to set up a Yusho deciding match on the last day. Too many times over the past year the Yusho had already been decided before senshuraku. This time, The Yusho was in question until the very last match, excitement all the way to the end. I am (Laughing...) the torikumi makers for making such a brilliant move. It just doesn't seem to me to be significant evidence of Yaocho.

[Zentoryu]

I wouldn't want any more people to get mortally annoyed by this essentially harmless issue that is getting blown out of proportion for all the wrong reasons... (Laughing...)

I agree with you. This thread has become a pointless debate. Just like all Yaocho and Henka debates of the past. Someone presses the button and the bomb goes off... :-)

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

Will the anti-Asashoryu grudge remain for the rest of his career even if he continues to hold true to the ideal of his rank?

I'm hard on Asashoryu since I'm hard on everyone except myself. I'm kind of an idiot this way. A professional athlete (and especially a rikishi and even more especially a yokozuna) has responsibilities he either fulfills or not. You know what I think of Asashoryu in this regard.

I find it improbable he'll ever learn to behave like a proper yokozuna. If he proves me wrong, my grudge on him will be lifted and I owe him an apology (as if it meant anything to him or anyone else). That said, I will never be his fan. (Then again I can't really say I've ever been a fan of any rikishi.)

[Zenjimoto]

Will the anti-Asashoryu grudge remain for the rest of his career even if he continues to hold true to the ideal of his rank?

I'm hard on Asashoryu since I'm hard on everyone except myself. I'm kind of an idiot this way. A professional athlete (and especially a rikishi and even more especially a yokozuna) has responsibilities he either fulfills or not. You know what I think of Asashoryu in this regard.

I find it improbable he'll ever learn to behave like a proper yokozuna. If he proves me wrong, my grudge on him will be lifted and I owe him an apology (as if it meant anything to him or anyone else). That said, I will never be his fan. (Then again I can't really say I've ever been a fan of any rikishi.)

Because of testimony by some of the regular NHK commentators also active on the SML who know Asashoryu very well in person and have stated that he is a gem of a nice guy, I am very hopeful that Asashoryu will turn around the load of apathy he has created against himself with his mistakes by showing proper conduct and outstanding sumo henceforth. In Japan, he will always have the gaijin handicap, though. I just hope that doesn't become a trigger in itself (remember the pictures of the guy throwing a zabuton right at his head? That might be done just to provoke a reaction... would not be good...)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Edited December 3, 2003 by Zenjimoto

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

Remember the world cup? There was unquestionable evidence that Korea rigged the games.

Names of the wrongdoers, places and sums involved? Without those there is no "unquestionable evidence".

I saw two hosting nations play inspired football and surpass the expectations. That is nothing extraordinary. Rare but not extraordinary. I've watched international football more or less intensely for about thirty years but seemingly this isn't enough to see through a mask of lies.

Also, let's not forget the magnetically charged ball the Japanese used to deviate the Russian penalty shot over the goal.

[Jesinofuji]

Lack of sense of humor and light-heartedness can be a real problem in this forum sometimes...

You guys need to lighten up a bit and stop taking everything super-serious... especially yourselves! :-P

And finally forum seriousness...(Bye, bye...)

On one hand it can be patronizing to tell someone to 'lighten up' or that they are 'taking things too seriously'. In essence it amounts to telling the person that they are foolish for thinking strongly about something that is generally accepted as unimportant. I don't like this because I mean who is to judge what is important and what isnt? If someone feels strongly about something, that it must be important to them. Also telling someone that they have no sense of humor is basically calling someone socially inept. It paints a picture of the person as cold and antisocial, as a suit, a bottled up old miser, etc... Nobody likes to be told this. And it usually isn't true. People have widely different senses of humor. Just because a person doesn't take one thing candidly doesn't mean they won't laugh at another thing.

On the other hand, Sumo is entertainment. It is a sport, and as so people are going to have different favorites. Differences of opinion are going to be present. Taking a statement about a rikishi or happening in this sport personally is not good. And I think people on this forum can tend to take these issues very very personally. And if it is too often forgotten that we are at this forum to have fun, discuss, and better unerstand that sport that we have all become fans of, this forum would become a truely dismal place indeed. Nobody like a forum where people are doing like this (Protesting...) (Pulling hair...) :-) :-) (In a bad mood...) (Annoyed...) (Sign of disapproval) (Eating...) >:-( (Laughing...) ;-) (Boxing...) :-) (Hitting with chair...) (Blushing...) (Yikes...) (Chauvinist meets feminist...) (Beware of the blue one...) (Running over the other guy...) (Hanged myself...) ;-) (Getting punched...) all the time. So there is a degree of truth in Zenji's statement. And he didn't direct it at any one specific person. So lets all cool it before we kill eachother.

[Jesinofuji]

Remember the world cup?  There was unquestionable evidence that Korea rigged the games.

Names of the wrongdoers, places and sums involved? Without those there is no "unquestionable evidence".

I saw two hosting nations play inspired football and surpass the expectations. That is nothing extraordinary. Rare but not extraordinary. I've watched international football more or less intensely for about thirty years but seemingly this isn't enough to see through a mask of lies.

Also, let's not forget the magnetically charged ball the Japanese used to deviate the Russian penalty shot over the goal.

We'll never have the names and sums because this all happened within Korea. Like Korea is going to investigate the wrongdoing of their own soccer program. How could an investigation even take place when the only people who have the authority to hold an investigation are the likely purpetrators...

When in a string of games, multiple calls are at game deciding moments are blown each game, and always in favor of one team --which happens to be the host and also the man who organized the games is heir to billions and trying to use soccer popularity to boots his presidential bid. Some of the calls were cases of kind of close, but replay shows they were blown. Others were not even close, people in the top stands could easily tell that the calls were wrong. And how about the goal pulled back from Spain where the call that the ball went out wasn't made until 2 seconds after the ball came close (not that vlose even), --right after Spain scored. Why did the ref wait so long to make the call? None of the other calls took that long... I'll assume you just didn't see the game.

How about Roy Jones loosing in the Seoul Olympics --say that wasn't 'Yaocho' with a straight face.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

We'll never have the names and sums because this all happened within Korea.

(...)

Others were not even close, people in the top stands could easily tell that the calls were wrong.

(...)

I'll assume you just didn't see the game.

(...)

How about Roy Jones loosing in the Seoul Olympics --say that wasn't 'Yaocho' with a straight face.

First of all, I completely agree you on your earlier post about the tension on the forum although who am I to try to relieve it (as a regular member instead of my administerial role)? I'd appear hypocrite. I probably am.

Regarding football farces. I saw every single match of the World Cup 2002 unless Finnish TV omitted some of them. I did see Spain vs South Korea.

You have no "unquestionable evidence". You have the losing nations venting their frustrations over objectionable calls in a football game. Referees and linesmen do not have the luxury of slow motions and bird's eye view. They are forced to make harsh decisions which rock whole nations in a matter of few seconds at most.

I saw sloppy refereeing. I'm inclined to blame FIFA for ordering relatively inexperienced referees to umpire matches beyond their expertise in the name of global diversity. I have no qualms over Egyptian referees as such but whenever a really important match like those in (the latter stages of) a World Cup is to be umpired, I'd usually look out for an experienced and renowned European or South American referee if I were a FIFA official. Alas, I'm not.

I was about to ask Who is Roy Jones? but I googled him. I can't comment on his case as I didn't see the match. I did see Francesco Damiani beat the living cr@p out of Tyrell Biggs in the Olympic super heavyweight final in 1984 only to see him given the silver medal. That did baffle me.

There are rigged matches, bouts, races etc. in many sports which pretend to be serious sports; even doping excluded. It'd be foolish to think otherwise as the human nature is what it is. We (you and I and the sports audience in general) just seem to disagree on when the evidence is convincing enough. Perhaps it's my legal background which tends to cry out for more evidence. I don't know.

[Yubiquitoyama]

There are rigged matches, bouts, races etc. in many sports which pretend to be serious sports; even doping excluded. It'd be foolish to think otherwise as the human nature is what it is. We (you and I and the sports audience in general) just seem to disagree on when the evidence is convincing enough. Perhaps it's my legal background which tends to cry out for more evidence. I don't know.

I agree completely, except not having a legal background.

Btw, I think there are cases where it's not out of the question to claim that it's more likely a match was rigged than that it wasn't (or a referee bought, which likely is the most common form of rigging in team sports), but it's not very common.

I'd say that for example the Paraguayan (I think) football referee who introduced overtime until the home team managed to win (17 minutes I think it was) in a roughly injury-free match, while also running for a political position in that same town (or something, I don't remember the details), probably was not impartial...

However, in sumo, and for that matter most other sports, such examples are rare indeed, and the claim some people have that you can always see what matches are fixed, is just ridiculous.

Edited December 3, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Jesinofuji]

Mistakes? Yeah...

And its just coinsedence that the mistakes were at game defining moments, and always in favor of one particular team? And that the calls were made only after the goals were scored? Just extremely good luck from Korea? Game after game? The refs don't have the instant reply luxury no, but at least in the case of the spanish goal, the ref wasn't but a couple meters away. Whatever country the refs are from, they are professionals. Proof, no, but the evidence is overwhelming. I don't put it beyond the soccer chief in Korea to pull a stunt like this -he had the money, the motivation, and the connections. And I don't put it beyond the refs from those 3rd world countries to take him up on it either. Surely, Chung Mong-Joon was highly motivated to do this. It was all to promote his presidential bid. Its just a criss-cross of two things that Korea has become known for -political scandal, and Yaocho! I like justice, I like it when the people who deserve to win win. It was a horrible injustice to the teams that played against Korea, its not just that they had this game robbed from them, but also, they were called 'whiners', 'sore loosers' and the like after the game was literally stolen from them by Chung Mong-joon. The media and fans from around the world pointed laughed and mocked the poor --and not thinking objectively about the what happened at all.

Do you assume that all sports scandals are later revealed? Do you think nobody ever gets away with it. When you say "Names of the wrongdoers, places and sums involved?" do you mean that you will not believe something to be a scandal unless its revealed. The powerful forces who orchestrated this injustice have enough influence to cover it up well.

We have no proof, I could be wrong. All the same lightning could strike me 3 times tomorrow, we coual all win the lotto this week, Miyabiyama could pull a zensho in hatsu.

[Jesinofuji]

And here is the man: Roy Jones Jr.

[Yubiquitoyama]

Mistakes?  Yeah...

And its just coinsedence that the mistakes were at game defining moments, and always in favor of one particular team?  And that the calls were made only after the goals were scored?  Just extremely good luck from Korea?  Game after game?  The refs don't have the instant reply luxury no, but at least in the case of the spanish goal, the ref wasn't but a couple meters away.  Whatever country the refs are from, they are professionals.  Proof, no, but the evidence is overwhelming.  I don't put it beyond the soccer chief in Korea to pull a stunt like this -he had the money, the motivation, and the connections.  And I don't put it beyond the refs from those 3rd world countries to take him up on it either.

Wasn't the referee in the Spain-game Swedish Anders Frisk?

I don't suggest Swedes can't be bribed, but it would surprise me VERY much if that particular referee would do something different than following exactly what he thought he saw at that particular moment. He is also a rather highly regarded referee, and not one I would call a referee from "some third-world country" who needs the money either. I might be wrong about the referee though, but it does seem to come to mind. :-)

No, the evidence isn't overwhelming. I have no difficulty believing that there were money involved in maybe one or possibly a couple matches, but you seem to say that "We know every match was rigged". It's not so much what you suggest as with what sureness you seem to suggest it that makes me think you are wrong. Not in that there MIGHT be fixed matches, but that you say that there WERE fixed matches. Period. There is simply not enough evidence to support that. (Blushing...)

On a related note, the all too common view (openly held by for example the bold/bald referee Colina) that having video replays for referees in football would be against "tradition of a great game" is in my opinion much worse lack of flexibility than the often-critisized Kyokai have ever been guilty of. >(Laughing...)

Edited December 3, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Doitsuyama]

Just adding my view to the soccer World Cup and Roy Jones (which I both have seen). I'm pretty much convinced that there was NO match rigging in favor of Korea (or Japan, for that matter) throughout the World Cup. The evidence just is WAY too feeble. Everyone who argues with "lots of blown decisions" hasn't seen enough soccer in his life to know what blown decisions really are. Or they are misguided sympathisants of the teams having played against Korea (like Italy! What a shame for this country!) or for countries rivaling Korea (Japan!).

To Roy Jones Jr.: Kotoseiya, Damiani beating up Biggs was NOTHING against Roy Jones Jr. beating up his Korean opponent. Roy Jones Jr. PLAYED with him without breaking a sweat. The bout rigging here must have been one of the most obvious in the history of boxing and this means a lot.

[Asashosakari]

And its just coinsedence that the mistakes were at game defining moments, and always in favor of one particular team?

This only makes sense if you're claiming that all (or almost all) game-defining moments were called wrong. Just saying that, say, 3 wrong decisions were made and all happened at game-defining moments doesn't mean much if 15 correct decisions were also made at potentially game-defining moments. That's just shoddy refereeing.

Many of those guys most definitely aren't professionals btw. Even across much of Europe, professional referees have only emerged in the last 10-15 years. I doubt anyone makes a living from refereeing soccer matches in the Sub-Saharan countries (except perhaps in South Africa), yet several World Cup referees were from that area.

And that the calls were made only after the goals were scored?

Happens all the time in soccer, for example when a team is aggressively trying to get their opponents into off-side situations. I'm not discounting the fact (Really late edit: err, possibility, not fact) that the ref might have thrown the decisions intentionally, but the way the decisions came about really is nothing extraordinary for soccer.

Do you assume that all sports scandals are later revealed?

Edited December 3, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

When you say "Names of the wrongdoers, places and sums involved?" do you mean that you will not believe something to be a scandal unless its revealed.

Yes, exactly that I mean. That's the lawyer part in me. Without proof, all we have is suspicions. Innocent until proven guilty.

Some collective remarks.

Yubi's Paraguayan example does sound very suspicious.

Very few scandals are later revealed, I'd say. Some thankfully are. While I was annoyed at the biggest Finnish rigging scandal few years ago involving the Finnish "national" game of pes

[Jesinofuji]

You know, I'm changing my mine you guys are right. The Koreans probably didn't do any match fixing. These things just happen. They sure played great soccer. They even deserved to win some of their games.

In fact I've been wrong about alot of things. I'm changing my hatsu basho yusho prediction too. I don't think Asashoryu is going to win anymore. Its going to be Miyabiyama. (Applauding...)

Edited December 3, 2003 by Jesinofuji

[QttP]

Is there one thread on this forum that won't end up being a discussion about fixed matches? (Applauding...)

[Jesinofuji]

Is there one thread on this forum that won't end up being a discussion about fixed matches? (Protesting...)

Sure, the thread about henka and the thread about Sumo World. (Applauding...)

[Tony]

I think that Tochiazuma has good chance to become yokozuna. He was very impressive in november. In 2003, he was the only rikishi able to dominate a genki Asashoryuu on 15 days.