Ama vs. Hakuho

[Sokkenaiyama]

Not meaning to say 'I told you so', but I told you so. (Of course, you can now start pouring it: "That was legit, Ama owned Hak, etc. blah blah, yackedy schmackedy, there's no yaocho in sumo". Save it.)

Edited November 20, 2008 by Sokkenaiyama

[Asashosakari]

Save it.

Ah, the always entertaining "I've just displayed my inability to restrain myself but in the same breath I'm calling for everybody else to do it" post...

[Sokkenaiyama]

Actually, it was a mean gloating post. I'd love to see what the no-yaochoers have to say (they're probably shutting up anyway).

[Asashosakari]

Actually, it was a mean gloating post.

I know what it was intended as; doesn't mean I won't enjoy the unintentional self-parody. Gloat on! (I am not worthy...)

[Harry]

Why do people think that was fixed? They've split their last 6 matches 3-3 until this one. Hak isn't 100% this basho after his foot operation. In fact this looked a lot like Ama's other matches this basho, he went out hard at the tachia, got good grips and tossed his aite. Bravo Ama, I'll enjoy seeing you as ozeki.

[Sokkenaiyama]

I looked at the replays. In a couple of situations Hakuho goes from the inside to the outside pretty much on his own. Not to mention his tachi-ai was meek, to say the least. I have to agree, though, that Ama will be enjoyable as the top Ozeki.

[Doitsuyama]

Actually, it was a mean gloating post. I'd love to see what the no-yaochoers have to say (they're probably shutting up anyway).

I say that Ama's strength rating was so high that ozeki promotion is inevitable sooner or later. Just look at his record in the last year, seven successive sanyaku kachi-koshi (not counting this basho) with six sansho. Oh, and he is 6-6 against yokozuna and 20-9 against ozeki in that time with a 5-3 against Hakuho.

But be free to see what you want to see.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Doitsuyama

[kame]

Actually, it was a mean gloating post. I'd love to see what the no-yaochoers have to say (they're probably shutting up anyway).

I say that Ama's strength rating was so high that ozeki promotion is inevitable sooner or later. Just look at his record in the last year, seven successive sanyaku kachi-koshi (not counting this basho) with six sansho. Oh, and he is 6-6 against yokozuna and 20-9 against ozeki in that time with a 5-3 against Hakuho.

But be free to see what you want to see.

those number speak loud and clear. still, it was an anticlimatic bout. people expected a LOT more from Hakuho, just take a quick look at today's sumo game predictions.

[Sokkenaiyama]

I don't see what I want to see, I see what's there to be seen. Of course Ama is a damn fine wrestler, but Hakuho is simply better, and you know it. Check the fine details of the replay and tell me why Hakuho went from the inside to the outside with both hands. Don't tell me he thinks he can take Ama down better with a double uwate!

[Doitsuyama]

I don't see what I want to see, I see what's there to be seen. Of course Ama is a damn fine wrestler, but Hakuho is simply better, and you know it. Check the fine details of the replay and tell me why Hakuho went from the inside to the outside with both hands. Don't tell me he thinks he can take Ama down better with a double uwate!

That should be proof enough that there wasn't yaocho. Those rikishi are skilled enough by far to perform a fully credible bout with premeditated result, or don't you think so? My view is that Hakuho saw himself already in a disadvantage in the yotsu grip and I agree with that. He tried something which didn't work. He wouldn't have done so if the bout was sold.

[Sokkenaiyama]

I don't think they're skilled enough to perform 100% genuine looking yaocho. Nice try, though. And look at the moment right after the throw, when Ama turns to face Hak. Notice the subtle nod?

I know you're probably hoping there's no yaocho in sumo, and that it's all nice and clean, but I'm sorry to disappoint you, almost anyone would do it given the opportunity and with so much to gain. Looking out for #1, family, friends, fellow countrymen, in that order, is what the overwhelming majority of people do. Denying the existence of yaocho is practically denying the existence of corruption, organized crime and the like. And you know very well those exist, and there's nothing you can do about it. Still, to quote you, be free to see what you want to see.

[Dante]

I don't buy it. I could see these things as being a possibility had Hakuho not given up the sole lead for Ama to (maybe) become an Ozeki. But now with still 3 fights to go and having him alongside him for the yusho race... Nope I don't buy it.

[Gernobono]

I don't buy it. I could see these things as being a possibility had Hakuho not given up the sole lead for Ama to (maybe) become an Ozeki. But now with still 3 fights to go and having him alongside him for the yusho race... Nope I don't buy it.

you think anyone can challenge hakuho the next days?

if it is yaocho or anything else...i think hakuho will take the yusho in a ketteisen....that would top the basho and hakuho still can get his yusho...ama returning the favour....

it is just yet another example of "all are happy in the end".....

[Jejima]

I haven't even seen today's bout, but I would guess that Ama takes the yusho in the play-off (if it comes).

[Dante]

I don't buy it. I could see these things as being a possibility had Hakuho not given up the sole lead for Ama to (maybe) become an Ozeki. But now with still 3 fights to go and having him alongside him for the yusho race... Nope I don't buy it.

you think anyone can challenge hakuho the next days?

if it is yaocho or anything else...i think hakuho will take the yusho in a ketteisen....that would top the basho and hakuho still can get his yusho...ama returning the favour....

it is just yet another example of "all are happy in the end".....

And I think this is yet another example of some very paranoid forum visitors.

Oh well, I am not putting anymore down than my 2 cents and those are that I feel that Ama has been on a good streak after day 4 and I felt Hakuho was in trouble even before the bout started.

That's all for me. I am not letting these allogations ruin it.

[Harry]

I don't think they're skilled enough to perform 100% genuine looking yaocho. Nice try, though. And look at the moment right after the throw, when Ama turns to face Hak. Notice the subtle nod?

I know you're probably hoping there's no yaocho in sumo, and that it's all nice and clean, but I'm sorry to disappoint you, almost anyone would do it given the opportunity and with so much to gain. Looking out for #1, family, friends, fellow countrymen, in that order, is what the overwhelming majority of people do. Denying the existence of yaocho is practically denying the existence of corruption, organized crime and the like. And you know very well those exist, and there's nothing you can do about it. Still, to quote you, be free to see what you want to see.

So you think they're doing yaocho and then nodding on TV about it? Come on! That nod was a rei, a bow after the match (not the official one they're forced to do). In fights you bow to the competition area before and after and your opponent before an after, etc. I saw it as a sign of respect, not a "thanks for the yaocho, chum."

Do I think the world is perfect? No, absolutely not but I saw a good sumo match today. With the current level of scrutiny on the sport I just can't believe they'd even consider throwing a fight.

[Asashosakari]

I don't think they're skilled enough to perform 100% genuine looking yaocho.

That's kind of a self-contradicting notion. If they're not even able to fake a bout in a good-looking way, one would have to conclude that a fair bout is even more likely to include odd and unusual events simply because your opponent's actions aren't pre-meditated. Doesn't stop people (hey, you've just done it) from assuming that pretty much any bout that looks odd must have been fixed.

I dare say some of those perfectly choreographed, epic yotsu battles that Asashoryu and Hakuho had in '06 and '07 were much better candidates for suspicion. It's funny...anybody who's watched pro-wrestling for any amount of time can tell you that it's the botched moves that are "real", not the perfectly executed ones. People make the exact opposite assumption whenever they insinuate that a certain sumo bout was straight out of pro-wrestling.

[Sokkenaiyama]

I don't watch pro-wrestling, so I guess you should know better. What I was saying about the not being skilled enough to make it look perfect is this. In a real sumo match, there will be openings. The more skilled rikishi will have a much higher percentage of capitalizing on those openings that the lessers. The 'skill', so to speak, in making matches look genuine is to make the failed attempts at capitalizing on the openings look genuine. In this match, there were some good openings for Hakuho, but not only did he fail to capitalize, he did the exact opposite of what he usually does (and does well, too). He clearly had his left on the inside a few seconds into the bout and the front of the mawashi on that side was wide open. He didn't go for it, instead, fully aware Ama was deep inside on his right, he moved Ama's right arm of the way to go for the uwate, which he made sure he didn't get. It was so easy. And to most, yeah, the bout looks genuine.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Sokkenaiyama

[Dante]

And to most, yeah, the bout looks genuine.

What an arrogance... (I am not worthy...)

[Kintamayama]

Hakuhou has been looking really bad this basho, getting lucky in at least three bouts that his opponents didn't believe in themselves enough to finish him off. He didn't come close to dominating. Sure, most of us thought he'd win, because we usually think the Yokozuna, whoever he may be, will win. Ama is not a pushover, he's the second (or maybe even higher..) best guy around at the moment hands down. If he takes the yusho, what will you say then? Sure there is yaocho in Sumo. What has that got to do specifically with this bout? Let's not get smug and condescending, Mr. Sokkenaiyama, we know the world isn't Disneyland Most of us (to some, a very small sum, the bout looked not genuine) can tell when it at least smacks of yaocho. This one didn't. I'm not really surprised you are the one leading the "Sumo is rotten to the core-this is yaocho, deal with it you fools" campaign. You got proof? No. You saw it one way, others saw it the other way. I bet you are getting more sympathy for your views in your other house, sir, which is good, since the world has to have all sorts. I have no problem with your view sir, it's not a very original one, but the tone, the tone..

Come on.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Sokkenaiyama]

Wasn't meaning to be arrogant, I was merely stating the conclusion after all the people here started disagreeing. Mr. D, can you answer to me why Hakuho changed his grip the way he did with his left and didn't grad the mawashi instead?

[Dante]

Wasn't meaning to be arrogant, I was merely stating the conclusion after all the people here started disagreeing. Mr. D, can you answer to me why Hakuho changed his grip the way he did with his left and didn't grad the mawashi instead?

No and neither can you.

That's the whole problem with looking at a fast Sumo match in nearly frame by frame slow motion not only do things happen in a different context when there is enough time to actually think about each and every move that normal lasts a fraction of a second or seeing it as the full blast, speedy, clashing of brute force match that it actually is, but you seem to look for signs of what you believe is bout fixing and obviously if that is the way in which you analyze a bout it will be something you will find.

It's like religious nuts looking for and finding Mary's face in baggels or seeing miracles in childbirth.

Me I try to take things at face value...

Have a look at some of the footage of sumo exhibition matches (e.g. the ones from Vegas) to see what a fixed bout looks like and then look at this match again.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Dante

[Sokkenaiyama]

I had a look at plenty of matches so far, and I think I can tell a fixed bout from a real one, most of the time. Are you trying to convince me there's no yaocho? Because you're not doing much of a job. And the religious comparison is beside the point.

[Dante]

It is to demonstrate that if you are looking for a miracle you can see one in every aspect of the world. You seem to be looking for Yaocho in sumo bouts so you are bound to see clues to "prove" it is there.

Why you would assume I deny the existence of it is beyond me as I did no such thing but apparently with you it is either black or white.

[Dante]

And that really was the last thing I am going to say about it. Really not worth my time and energy.