Asashouryu just got screwed

[sekihiryu]

The trigger happy head shimpan raised his hand when he fact he did not step out. It was very close but the there was no mark in the sand. Some sand fell of the sole of his foot, perhaps that is what caught the Shimpans eye?, who knows, why are old men with failing eyesight doing such a job in the first place, only in sumo.

he got screwed.

piss poor officiating this basho, thanks a lot moronogawa rijicho. (Pulling hair...) (In a state of confusion...) (Sign of disapproval...) (Sign of disapproval...)

Edited September 21, 2008 by sekihiryu

[ilovesumo]

If he got screwed, now that would be psycho- gd retire!!!- pressure...

[sekihiryu]

thats what Mono-ii are for...let the replay tell the story.

[Otokonoyama]

Real tough call on that one. Watched it all in digital broadcast on my 32" flat screen. Lotsa replays. 微妙だよなあ、西君。。。

[kame]

after watching the very last NHK replay (that the announcer was begging for) it looked to me like the ankle never touched out. at the very least it deserved a mono ii. torinaoshi would have been a fair outcome, i guess, considering it was indeed a tough call.

Edited September 21, 2008 by kame

[paolo]

IMHO: First of all it is hard to understand why the bout was stopped, since the outside touch was not clear: let the bout go to the end, then call for a mono-ii, then you have the slow motion and you can reverse the gyoji's final call, if it is the case. Second: if you do stop the bout, you can still have a mono-ii (or can't you ?) and have the slow motion and see if you stopped the bout by mistake and decide for a torinaoshi. Third and Sad: how could Asashoryu let himself enter that situation where he was virtually lost ? The man is not there, and in a way he unfortunately deserved what happened ...

But an unfair pressure on him is getting bigger and bigger.

Edited September 21, 2008 by paolo

[Peterao]

Lots of things to discuss with this bout:

1. Why is the shinpan stopping the match? I thought that was the gyoji's responsibility, and the shinpan's responsibility was to get together and talk things over if the gyoji's decision is incorrect?

2. From all replays that were shown, I cannot decisively conclude that Asashoryu's foot did touch the outside...but if it did not, it was less than a micrometer away from touching.

3. Regardless, Asashoryu was outwrestled in that match, and if he was ever thinking about retiring, he should be thinking doubly hard about it now.

[ilovesumo]

Shinpan is something like a Supergyoji watching if the normal　Gyoji is doing right.

See the little foto of Asa's foot. Too small to say he touched down or not. http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/

[Asashosakari]

FWIW, I recall a juryo bout a few years ago where Kokonoe as shomen-shinpan overruled the gyoji directly and it was pretty much missed altogether by us four or five people in the chat room - probably thanks to the camera guy not focussing on the post-bout bows, though maybe we just didn't pay attention after the gumbai was pointed (I honestly don't recall). Anyway, we didn't realize it until the NSK's results page showed the presumed losing rikishi as the winner several minutes later.

[Gernobono]

FWIW, I recall a juryo bout a few years ago where Kokonoe as shomen-shinpan overruled the gyoji directly and it was pretty much missed altogether by us four or five people in the chat room - probably thanks to the camera guy not focussing on the post-bout bows, though maybe we just didn't pay attention after the gumbai was pointed (I honestly don't recall). Anyway, we didn't realize it until the NSK's results page showed the presumed losing rikishi as the winner several minutes later.

i just saw some replays on jstv-sportsnews and for me it looked as if his heel touched outside......impossible to be 100% sure, but for me it is more for touching than for not touching....

[Hashira]

i just saw some replays on jstv-sportsnews and for me it looked as if his heel touched outside......impossible to be 100% sure, but for me it is more for touching than for not touching....

my　view exactly, but think it deserved a mono-ii at least and a tori-naoshi would have been reasonable

[Asashosakari]

That happens from time to time in the lower divisions. Gyoji mixes up the names or sides or gets it wrong. Shinpan sometimes even do a quick confer without leaving their seats.

FWIW, we all had thought the gyoji actually got the decision right, i.e. not a simple east/west gumbai mistake. But IIRC the bout did finish very near (northwest corner of the dohyo) the shomen seat, so Kokonoe must have seen something we all (and the gyoji) missed. The low webstream quality wasn't helping, of course...

At the time I was rather confused by it (my mindset as to the shinpan role was somewhere along Peterao's point #1), but as you're saying it does happen occasionally; I've seen it in upper makushita once or twice since then when the stream guys were nice enough to turn it on early. But it's probably quite rare in the sekitori divisions.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Manekineko]

I think it's pretty common for shimpan who noticed a rikishi brushing out of the ring to raise his hand, as an aid to gyoji more than anything else.

[Sokkenaiyama]

At first I thought he was robbed too, but after seeing some replays, I have doubts. The one thing that is intriguing me is... why did the shinpan wait all that time to raise his hand? And why weren't there any relevant replays?!

[Takemi]

someone knows were you can watch a video of this bout?

[Harry]

Watching NHK was difficult with the political interruptions all during the programme but at the end of the night on the 42" Panasonic I was convinced Asa did touch down. There was a mark in the sand for sure. The replays showed his heel was clearly out but the touch down itself was impossible to see 100% so I would go by the mark in the sand which was obvious, unless it was from the previous bout and an incomplete sweeping. It was a mark, not just sand that fell off his heel.

[Edit: if I knew how to get an image off my PVR I'd grab one...]

Edited September 21, 2008 by Harry

[Otokonoyama]

Watched every replay on all the news programs...very hard to say definitively that his foot made the imprint in the sand. Also very hard to say that it didn't. Could have been some sand falling off his heel. Some frame-by-frame would be in order. Deserved a mono-ii IMHO.

[Otokonoyama]

What do you think?

Edited September 21, 2008 by Otokonoyama

[ilovesumo]

Now if that pic would move...I could think (Sign of approval...)

[Sakana]

He touched the sand. On one video from NHK, it's clear, they film it.

[sekihiryu]

I watched all the replays every angle over and over, saw the shot of the sand and if he did touch it was a by microns and not enough to disturb the sand and leave a divot. It was too close and deserved a mono-ii.

Only the Dohyo ants would really know.

[Sakana]

NHK (or BSTV ?) showed the footprint after the bout.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Sakana

[Sokkenaiyama]

Well, in the picture it looks like he touched. Case closed.

[Sakana]

Here is the picture I'm talking about :

[Jonosuke]

One of the shimpan's job is to raise his hand to let the gyoji know when the bout was decided (i.e. when a rikishi steps out).

There was a footmark at the Janome (outside).

Mihogaseke was the closest and sitting at the best position to see it - better than the video angle.

As much as it was another ugly emotional outburst from Asashoryu, he didn't sound like someone who was about to retire soon.