Asashouryuu considering intai

[sekihiryu]

Ask Joe Q Public Ask Hiro K. Nakamura .

actually in Japan, 'Taro Yamada' is hte equivalent.

It comes with the territory

there is no point in blaming the Kyokai or media for Asashoryu's ill fortune

you know it goes both ways, the media are pack of vultures, some are truly depraved especially the Tabloids, and whether you want to blame them or not they are sure as hell arent helping any.

I feel real really sorry for people who get hounded by the media, especially when its incessant and starts to really affect you and have negative effects on your mental health. I doubt any of us on this forum can truly understand how he feels, we havent been subjected to the same intense sometimes vitriolic media scrutiny. Princess Diana could have sympatheized with him I think.

As for the Kyokai, yes Asashoryu made his own bed that he now sleeping in, but the the Kyokai with their resolute stubborn unyeilding attitudes havent exactly been a understanding employer and reached out to help in a meaningful way. He not some dope smoking Russian maegashira, he is your main attraction, make more of an effort to help him.

You reap what you sow, a both sides are reaping.

[Jonosuke]

What were the Kyokai thinking,in the first place,when they allowed foreigners into Ozumo? :-D

Obviously they didn't know Asashoryu would come along.

If I recall Takamiyama was loved by everyone. Akebono conducted himself yokozuna like when the chips were down. No one could accuse Muashimaru for causing a controversy every basho. So I wonder....

Some may choose to ignore the fact that Otake oyakata believed and defended Roho almost til the very end before he found out he was betrayed by his recruit. He even went so far for his deshi as to go up to the podium at all oyakata meeting and read Roho's letter in front of them while some oyakata already knew Roho told of the LA incident. Otake oyakata was heckled by another but he kept reading it and other oyakata defended him as they all would do the same thing for their deshi, Japanese or foreign born.

Just go take a look at Moti's Foreigner List and you realize almost every one of them you never see any story of them on papers. When you see so many other foreign born rikishi despite their language difficulty and culture differences get along with other rikishi in their heya and other oyakata as well as reporters, don't you ever wonder maybe, just maybe there is something wrong with Asashoryu with the way he conducts himself. There is another rikshi from Mongolia in his heya. Now how many times in the last couple of years he was ever in the news except for his records and banzuke ranking?

There is nothing to be confused about. One only needs to see things objectively.

[Fujisan]

I think if we Sumo fans cant just say "Asashoryu's injured his elbow its only right that he goes Kyujo so that he doesn't embaress himself or injure it further," Then what can we expect of those that run sumo.

Asashoryu's injured and he will be back when he's recovered,he should be given the same chance that Takanohana and Musashimaru where when they where injured and not hounded into fighting when he isn't fit to do so or forced into retirement.

[Manekineko]

If you notice in rikishi talk, Musashigawa-rijicho seemed much more measured in his reaction to Asa's kyujo, saying he should allow himself as much time as necessary to heal, even if it means skipping several bashos. So I don't think Musashigawa is set to hound Asa into retirement... I think most of the Kyokai would love nothing better than for Asa to get better, physically and mentally, and return as yusho challenger as is yokozuna's duty.

[Arslan]

Some oyakata like Oshima oyakata really were stern with all his recruits including Mongolian rikishi. What became more apparent between him and Takasago oyakata was Oshima oyakata's handling of Kyokutenho's suspension. During his suspension Kyokutenho worked at his heya and did not overtly go out. We all knew what happened to Takasago oyakata and Asashoryu when Asashoryu was suspended.

There is a big difference between Kyokutenho abd Asashoryu. Kyokutenho is not a yokozuna. Besides he has a Japanese citizenship, Japan is his home and he is preparing to take over his heya. Then what else he can do and where else he can go during his suspension?

[James H]

And yet, I don't see how at this stage his pulling power could compensate for Asashoryu's. This has more to do with charisma (or lack thereof) off the dohyo than with sumo itself.

I think it is a mistake to assume that Asashoryu-style charisma is what most Japanese sumo fans want from a yokozuna. Most top wrestlers have, and cultivate, the public persona of a sea cucumber.

After his engagement to Rie Miyazawa broke off, Takanohana stopped smiling in public and became the epitome of hinkaku. Was it boring and did he lack charisma? Yes, but the sumo-watching public lapped it up because his behaviour played into an idea of what a yokozuna should be.

More recently, Kaio continues to be one of the biggest draws, I would say not for his ability, but his character. That character is inscrutable, stoic and modest. For want of a better archetype, most sekitori are supposed to be big strong, silent types, anyway. That's their selling point to the public, why they say the same thing every day and no one thinks any less of them for it. If Hakuho dominates with the kind of sumo that gets crowds going, then they will keep coming regardless and they will continue to like him for his quiet stoicity (sp?).

[Jonosuke]

Some oyakata like Oshima oyakata really were stern with all his recruits including Mongolian rikishi. What became more apparent between him and Takasago oyakata was Oshima oyakata's handling of Kyokutenho's suspension. During his suspension Kyokutenho worked at his heya and did not overtly go out. We all knew what happened to Takasago oyakata and Asashoryu when Asashoryu was suspended.

There is a big difference between Kyokutenho abd Asashoryu. Kyokutenho is not a yokozuna. Besides he has a Japanese citizenship, Japan is his home and he is preparing to take over his heya. Then what else he can do and where else he can go during his suspension?

Are you suggesting if one is a yokozuna, he can do whatever he pleases, even going against his shisho's instruction?

Are you suggesting if one is not a Japanese citizen, he can go sulk and otherwise not go along with what his employer asks him to?

Can all rikishi who have no "home" in Japan go out and go have a night out and leave the country under a suspension without having a permission from his shisho?

Just think of course hypothetically if Roho and Hakurozan were suspended, would they have gone home to Russia? Would Wakanoho?

A yokozuna should be and are treated no differently to any other sekitori under a suspension. Just because one is a yokozuna does not mean he can go against his shisho or a Kyokai rule as he is still a member of the Kyokai and his heya. He is under the same obligations as all other sekitori.

[Kuroyama]

I can't help but wonder what this discussion would look like were Asashoryu Japanese? Let't not pretend it's impossible: The YDC wasn't instituted because of a foreign yokozuna, was it?

[Jejima]

It's official: Asashoryu will take a fusenpai and go kyujo from today, earning the rare 15-day symmetrical record of 5-5-5.

He also recorded 5-5-5 once before as a Yokozuna, at the time of the 'incident with Kyokushuzan'.

[Shomishuu]

If you notice in rikishi talk, Musashigawa-rijicho seemed much more measured in his reaction to Asa's kyujo, saying he should allow himself as much time as necessary to heal, even if it means skipping several bashos. So I don't think Musashigawa is set to hound Asa into retirement... I think most of the Kyokai would love nothing better than for Asa to get better, physically and mentally, and return as yusho challenger as is yokozuna's duty.

If this is Musashigawa's true feeling right now, then maybe he's had an epiphany since he took over, since his remarks at that time were anything but measured. But maybe he's got a plan, somehow...

[sekihiryu]

@ nishinoshima

Touche!

[Asashosakari]

If this is Musashigawa's true feeling right now, then maybe he's had an epiphany since he took over, since his remarks at that time were anything but measured. But maybe he's got a plan, somehow...

I don't see the difference. His basic message was "shape up or ship out", it's just that now after the kyujo he is strictly talking about Asashoryu's on-dohyo performance so naturally his words will be more measured. There's always been a lot less wrong about Asashoryu on the dohyo than off.

[Kirinoumi]

(I am not worthy...) Just a warning to others.

Me, too. Sorry for this late and off-topic post. This will be the last one.

Japan:

Behave badly, don't do your homework, and fail your tests? Well, that's the teacher's fault. You'll move up with your classmates anyway.

You're a genius? Too bad. The class moves at one speed.

In America (the only Western nation I have personal experience with), they have separate classes in the same school for different types of students. In Japan, they have separate schools for different types of students. The poor ones in the poor schools will graduate just like the good ones in the good schools, but ultimately one's individual ability is recognized just like in America.

Uh, not really. I was a teacher in the Japanese schools for a few years, and I saw classes with kids on a wide spectrum of levels. Perhaps it was because I was mainly in the countryside, where there sometimes weren't enough students to have the kind of classes you describe, but I often felt bad for both the overwhelmed and the bored. I also taught at a university, and I was once instructed by the administration to change a failing grade to a passing one because the student would not be able to graduate without that credit. Never mind that he failed the tests and never turned in the make-up project I offered him. It was his time to graduate.

Do an amazing job at work? Stop showing off. You're too young to be promoted anyway.

See above. Companies in Japan can no longer afford to keep the cream from rising to the top.

There has been change in this area, but the old seniority system is alive and well for a large part of the workforce. Maybe your experience is in companies with an international focus or newer IT-related companies, but I'll bet if you ask your Japanese friends, you won't find many whose boss is under 45 years old.

Down on your luck? The family is always there to support you.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously, how did these stereotypes survive into the 21st century?

As they say, stereotypes often have a basis in fact, and I happen to be speaking from my personal experience living in Japan for nine years. In times of crisis, I always saw that family could be depended on and even felt duty-bound to help in a way that many (most?) Americans no longer feel obligated.

Old and helpless? The government will get you a daily helper and make sure you have medical care.

Oh boy! Please tell us where this service is available...in my family's experience, the government may provide financial experience, but you're on your own trying to find a "daily helper", and they definitely don't make sure you have medical care.

I sure would like to live in the Japan that you are imagining!

Well, go to Ise-shi in Mie-ken. That's where my still mobile 80-year-old father-in-law welcomes his government-paid helper into the house three times a week. She cleans, cooks, and sometimes gives him a ride to the hospital. Discounted comprehensive medical coverage is also definitely available for the needy. I guess we do have that in the U.S. too, but I have a feeling it's much harder to access than in Japan.

<End of my participation in this off-topic thread, with apologies for having started it.>

Edited September 24, 2008 by Kirinoumi

[HenryK]

And yet, I don't see how at this stage his pulling power could compensate for Asashoryu's. This has more to do with charisma (or lack thereof) off the dohyo than with sumo itself.

I think it is a mistake to assume that Asashoryu-style charisma is what most Japanese sumo fans want from a yokozuna. Most top wrestlers have, and cultivate, the public persona of a sea cucumber.

After his engagement to Rie Miyazawa broke off, Takanohana stopped smiling in public and became the epitome of hinkaku. Was it boring and did he lack charisma? Yes, but the sumo-watching public lapped it up because his behaviour played into an idea of what a yokozuna should be.

More recently, Kaio continues to be one of the biggest draws, I would say not for his ability, but his character. That character is inscrutable, stoic and modest. For want of a better archetype, most sekitori are supposed to be big strong, silent types, anyway. That's their selling point to the public, why they say the same thing every day and no one thinks any less of them for it. If Hakuho dominates with the kind of sumo that gets crowds going, then they will keep coming regardless and they will continue to like him for his quiet stoicity (sp?).

Point well taken. I can see why Kaio has charisma, however, while I can't quite see it with Hakuho, his brilliance on the dohyo notwithstanding.

Edited September 24, 2008 by HenryK

[Jonosuke]

I just must apologize to Kuroyama here in public as I accidentally trashed his recent post. It was nothing intentional.

[Shomishuu]

If this is Musashigawa's true feeling right now, then maybe he's had an epiphany since he took over, since his remarks at that time were anything but measured. But maybe he's got a plan, somehow...

I don't see the difference. His basic message was "shape up or ship out", it's just that now after the kyujo he is strictly talking about Asashoryu's on-dohyo performance so naturally his words will be more measured. There's always been a lot less wrong about Asashoryu on the dohyo than off.

I just thought this comment was a bit over the top, on his first (or maybe 2nd) day on the job:

Musashigawa is wasting no time. He let reporters into his room and immediately started talking about what he intends to do.

Asashouryuu: No more nonsense. "If he doesn't do everything the right way, I'll have no choice but to make him retire".

Making this kind of open threat to a single rikishi in the public square was crude and boorish, in my opinion. It could have been handled better. Just for example, if asked directly about Asashoryu, he could have said something to the effect that frank discussions about behavior will be held with all rikishi, especially with the yokozuna and ozeki. He could have made these kinds of statements directly to Asashoryu in private then, and not just throw more red meat to the media. If his objective was to somehow inspire the yokozuna to greater heights, by threatening him directly in public, he has accomplished the opposite, I believe.

Maybe there's a method to the madness, but if so, it escapes me.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Shomishuu

[skycruiser]

Musashigawa is wasting no time. He let reporters into his room and immediately started talking about what he intends to do.

Asashouryuu: No more nonsense. "If he doesn't do everything the right way, I'll have no choice but to make him retire".

Making this kind of open threat to a single rikishi in the public square was crude and boorish, in my opinion. It could have been handled better. Just for example, if asked directly about Asashoryu, he could have said something to the effect that frank discussions about behavior will be held with all rikishi, especially with the yokozuna and ozeki. He could have made these kinds of statements directly to Asashoryu in private then, and not just throw more red meat to the media. If his objective was to somehow inspire the yokozuna to greater heights, by threatening him directly in public, he has accomplished the opposite, I believe.

Maybe there's a method to the madness, but if so, it escapes me.

May be it's a cultural thing, whereby the rijiicho wanted to be unequivocal about his statement. Sometimes, too much emphasis on not wanting to

hurt people's feeling leads to misunderstandings and innuendos.

Having seen Asa, numerous time, making excuses and trying to find an angle in order to get out of the hole he created, Asa or any other rikishi, would now have a

hard time wiggling out of their next problem.

Musashigawa made no bone about who is in charge. We will soon see how serious he is, about his statement, as Asa will certainly provide him with an opportunity in the near future.

Chiyonotora

[Arslan]

Are you suggesting if one is a yokozuna, he can do whatever he pleases, even going against his shisho's instruction?

Are you suggesting if one is not a Japanese citizen, he can go sulk and otherwise not go along with what his employer asks him to?

Can all rikishi who have no "home" in Japan go out and go have a night out and leave the country under a suspension without having a permission from his shisho?

Just think of course hypothetically if Roho and Hakurozan were suspended, would they have gone home to Russia? Would Wakanoho?

Just pointed that fact that Kyokutenho had no alternatives than staying in Japan. as for Roho and others they don't want to go home because they won't be able to find a proper job there and to earn the money they earned in Japan.

A yokozuna should be and are treated no differently to any other sekitori under a suspension. Just because one is a yokozuna does not mean he can go against his shisho or a Kyokai rule as he is still a member of the Kyokai and his heya. He is under the same obligations as all other sekitori.

Asashoryu is a yokozuna. It comes with the territory. He is at the top with privileges.

(Sign of disapproval...)

[Arslan]

Some may see my post(s) as attacks on Asashoryu.

It doesn't really matter who attacks Asashoryu. Finally he is the only person to decide what to do, to stay or to go. Like it or not he is and he will be one of the most remarkable yokozuna in sumo history. (Sign of disapproval...)

[Kirinoumi]

I just must apologize to Kuroyama here in public as I accidentally trashed his recent post. It was nothing intentional.

**No problem, Jonosuke. (Sign of disapproval...) (I assume you meant me, Kirinoumi, since my post from yesterday isn't here.) Luckily, it was still on my desktop.**

Well I like sumo the way it is as well, but this doesn't imply that every action of the Kyokai would reflect divine wisdom. Besides, safeguarding sumo's traditions and modernizing it is not an either or. The Kyokai needs to do both, and smartly so to keep sumo attractive.

Neither Asashoryu nor the Kyokai should be immune from criticism.

Yes! I whole-heartedly agree with both of these sentiments. I didn't mean to come off as a hell-bent Kyokai-hater in my earlier posts, but I guess I thought that Jonosuke's post about Asashoryu was so strongly biased that I felt it needed to be balanced out.

As for the Kyokai, yes Asashoryu made his own bed that he now sleeping in, but the the Kyokai with their resolute stubborn unyeilding attitudes havent exactly been a understanding employer and reached out to help in a meaningful way. He not some dope smoking Russian maegashira, he is your main attraction, make more of an effort to help him.

Again - yes! That's a much more succinct way of putting the point I was trying to make.

If you notice in rikishi talk, Musashigawa-rijicho seemed much more measured in his reaction to Asa's kyujo, saying he should allow himself as much time as necessary to heal, even if it means skipping several bashos. So I don't think Musashigawa is set to hound Asa into retirement... I think most of the Kyokai would love nothing better than for Asa to get better, physically and mentally, and return as yusho challenger as is yokozuna's duty.

I certainly hope that is the case. Despite Jonosuke's remarkable suggestion that Asashoryu is not a Dai-Yokozuna, I think the Kyokai and the fans (foreign and domestic) can agree that nothing would be better for sumo than more of the exhilarating senshuraku showdowns we saw earlier in the year.

I wish I had more time to spend on this discussion, but it's way past my bedtime. Jonosuke, I hope you don't feel too offended by my comments. I think this is an interesting debate, and I respect your right to your opinion, but I just feel that you are being too uncompromising about Asashoryu and ultraconservative about sumo. I, too, want to see the traditions and culture of sumo preserved for the future, but I don't think smothering it with overprotectiveness is the answer.

[Kuroyama]

I just must apologize to Kuroyama here in public as I accidentally trashed his recent post. It was nothing intentional.

You did? (Sign of disapproval...)

[Treblemaker]

I'm sure this post will get lost in the shuffle of all the P.H.D-doctoral thesis-style of discussion regarding Asa's this or that, and I've enjoyed reading all of it.

But maybe the more people discuss, the more they lose sight of the real issue: Losing Asa from Sumo, either temporarily or permantly, and what he means to the sport.

Asa is first and formost an entertainer. And a good one. One who for better or worse draws crowds, media, opinions and really long threads to discuss issues that really have no other reason than to show just HOW passionate people are with him and his contributions to an old and venerable institution. He gets paid good $$$ to kick ass. And for many years, that's what he was able to do better than anyone else. People enjoyed, and he has elevated the sport to a level not seen in recent decades.

Yes, Hakuho is a supremely talented young man, with incredible potential to go down as the most efficient Yokozuna in history... and possibly the most predictable.

Asa is visibly passionate, charismatic, emotional, different. We all understand and know this. If all of this were happening to a "different" Yokozuna (besides Hakuho), let's say it's Mickey - an excellent athelete with a pedigreed track record and impeccable behaviour - would the thread be this long and evoke the passion from fans all over the world? I doubt it.

To all the people who with Asa a "hardy goodbye and happy sailing as soon as possible": Who will take his place as the lightning rod that attracts so much attention to the sport? Hakuho? See above. Who else is there?

Asa is very important, if not critical, to this sport, culture and "The Way". Until there is someone else to light a fire, he's the man.

[sekihiryu]

he is not considering intai, he is considering the Javelin, with eyes for London 2012

Edited September 25, 2008 by sekihiryu

[kotoeikoku]

Asa is first and formost an entertainer. ................. One who for better or worse draws crowds

This is a common mispreception among those who blindly support Asashoryu. Far from drawing crowds his dominance coupled with the distaste many if not most Japanese people feel for him had the opposite effect on ticket sales until a strong rival yokozuna with hinkaku came along.

Agreed. From my own limited personal experience, the number of Japanese I met during Asashoryu's peak who lost interest in Sumo because of him was not inconsiderable. (Although that was partly because he was so dominant it removed the excitement. It wasn't just Hakuho's hinkaku that sparked interest, but also the prospect of real competition at the top). The media exposure of his supposed transgressions (whether real or imaginary, and that is not the point here) serves to further alienate people, rather than sparking off their enthusiasm for extended debate, as it does on this excellent forum. (Yucky...)

To paraphrase many posts made before, Sumo existed before Asashoryu, it will continue to exist after he has gone. I like Asashoryu, but those who say 'who will carry the torch once he is gone?' are missing the point. Sumo is not dependent on one man.

[mokele]

I remember reading a few years ago Chiyonofuji's comment about Asashoryu that his sumo was "fast, skilled and splendid!" I more or less agreed for the last 4 or 5 years without seriously considering that he could have taken steroids to augment his power and increase his muscle mass and weight. However, Asashoryu has always given the extra shove, has sometimes gloated a bit when he wins, and has in general been boorish to opponents that had the audacity to challenge his supremacy. That type of egotism, irritability and aggressiveness is sometimes associated with steroid abuse. Although he's intelligent, his personality on the dohyo has always been that of a bully, someone who wants not only to win but also to dominate others. High level sumo does not need to be that way. Takanohana II was not like that at all, and from all that I've read, neither was Taiho. Chiyonofuji was just a great athlete and didn't need to hype himself up with aggressiveness in order to win. Asashoryu will go down in history as a great yokozuna but one who was flawed, and he may be abandoned and ignored rather than revered as his career comes to a close.