Asashouryuu considering intai

[Guest drifter]

Do Ozumo fans miss him? Certainly. But I think since they already know Asashoryu doesn't love or care enough about Ozumo or Japan to stay around and contribute further, they will have no trouble letting him go either.

I've read many of your posts and had a good deal of respect of you. Me thinks you are overreacting this time.

Perhaps nobody, except Dagvaa himself, knows how much Dagvaa loves (or hates for this matter) Japan, Sumo, and Japanese fans. I would neither judge his contribution to Sumo, nor ask for more. His achievements are already remarkable even if he had just 10 Yushos. His most notable contributions are the quality and color of his sumo, not the numbers. Well, if you like the numbers, here you go - 22 Yusho, triple crown, 4 zensho etc. name it.

His most remarkable contribution to Sumo, perhaps, is his personality. He did not get along well with Kyokai, and Miss Uchidate. But those who got closer to him tend to like him a lot. He is a bad ass, but he is also genuine. He made many friends in Japan and obviously has no evil intention to destroy Japanese culture and turn everything upside down.

The old big guys like Kitanoumi, and Takanahana tend to get soft on him. At least people complain that way. Because only they know what it takes to be a Dai Yokozuna. You bring your life, together with your pride, to the line 15 days in a row, every other month a year, for 5 long years. You can't do this even if you wish. Your body will crumble. There are only 5 human beings on earth, who achieved such perfection.

This is not just Yokozuna job. This is a passion. This is not merely a determination. This is a mission. Dagva accomplished his mission with passion.

Then perfection leads to destruction. There is no perfect thing in this world, and should not be. No one will probably like the perfect world. Dagva's almost perfect art of sumo brought his own demise. The same is true for Kyokai and Sumo world. Sumo is revealing its dark sides while trying to purify itself. No one in this era puts homicide and charity soccer game on the same line. Kyokai will not achieve this dream. Because world is already not perfect.

[skycruiser]

Asashoryu is a yokozuna. It comes with the territory. ...

... but I'm really taken aback by this sudden venomous attack on Asashoryu and progressivism in sumo.

It's all about perceptions.

I did not find Jonosuke's post as a venemous attack on Asa, but a pretty factual statement about how he got to where he is now.

It seems that, especially in Western societies, no one want to take any responsabilities about one's actions. It's always someone else

fault! So is Asa almost always blaming his problems on someone else. It's the press, it's the shimpan, it's the NSK, it's the YDC...

well may be it's YOU, bud!

Asa's example probably had a lot to do with the behavior of the 3 Russian amigos: "Hey, if Asa can gets away with all his crazy stuff and

disregard for the rules, we probably can get away with it too" duh!

Asa is in Sumo for the recognition as a Dai Yokozuna, and financial gain, which is OK in a sense, but don't blame someone else

when you can't put up the numbers.

If he would just win as he did a couple years ago, and stop crying when he looses, then, things would probably quiet down.

Unfortunately it might be a little too late.

Chiyonotora

[Asashosakari]

Wow, I have to say that I am somewhat stunned by your very negative post that betrayed a radically conservative view on sumo. I have always respected your wealth of knowledge and experience regarding sumo, but I'm really taken aback by this sudden venomous attack on Asashoryu and progressivism in sumo.

I find that linking of "Asashoryu" and "progressivism in sumo" very curious. Also very reminiscent of the rarely-challenged mainstream opinion on a certain mailing list, but that's a different issue. (Though it might explain why you're "somewhat stunned" to read such an argument...)

Anyway, I find the whole "Asashoryu didn't/couldn't adjust to how Ozumo works, hence Ozumo needs to change" tack frequently taken to be rather hubristic. Lots and lots of other foreigners (from Takamiyama to Kyokutenho), while frequently travelling a thorny road, have managed to do their best to integrate into the Kyokai's operational framework, and they'll continue to be the ones to help modernize the Kyokai bit by bit, not wouldbe-revolutionaries like Asashoryu who feel it is for them to choose which parts of sumo tradition they feel like observing and which ones they don't.

The Sumo Kyokai has obviously done a terrible job adjusting to the challenges of the modern age. Just look at three issues: the influx of foreign rikishi, the rise of the Internet, and drugs. The organization's policy on foreign rikishi has varied from an open-door policy to zero-tolerance in a seemingly arbitrary fashion, making it impossible for the heya to set up a sensible recruiting and training system.

I'm sorry, but...what? There isn't even a sensible recruiting system for Japanese rikishi. And how a "sensible" training system for foreigners would differ from what was theoretically possible already up till now will also require some additional explanation. (No heya is prevented from giving additional hands-on instruction to their foreign deshi, and I'm quite sure some have done exactly that.) Not to mention that I suspect any top-down instructional system instituted by the Kyokai would be judged to be at odds with that whole "progressivism in sumo" angle where we don't want the Kyokai to squeeze all rikishi into one mold...

The Kyokai's use of the Internet to reach out to fans has also been laughable. Why is it that we dedicated fans have to scramble around making illegal video clips in order to see the highlights of the days' matches? Why do we go to Bazuke.com or Kintamayama's or Doitsuyama's sites for our sumo stats? Why do we create this very forum to discuss all things sumo? Because the Kyokai missed the boat and didn't create any of these services.

MLB.com is widely regarded as one of the more comprehensive and well-done official sports portals, and still most dedicated fans prefer to get their fandom fix from Baseball-Reference and ESPN and talk about baseball on various blogs and forums, rather than the official site. What is it you would have expected the Kyokai to produce on that front? The average sumo fan is probably served quite well by the official site, and would regard e.g. the Sumo-DB as total overkill. And while the Kyokai's video policies are infuriating to foreign fans (and I'm among those infuriated by it), the facts unfortunately are that a) every Japanese fan just needs to turn on his TV to receive free-to-air broadcasts, and b) what we foreign fans want doesn't matter a whole lot to the Kyokai because we're just too insignificant in number. (Another point frequently ignored in the SML echo chamber...)

[Kirinoumi]

It seems that, especially in Western societies, no one want to take any responsabilities about one's actions.

Asa is in Sumo for the recognition as a Dai Yokozuna, and financial gain, which is OK in a sense, but don't blame someone else

when you can't put up the numbers.

Your point about Asashoryu being quick to blame others may be valid, but I'm not sure when Mongolia became one of the "Western societies." Plus, I think you have it backwards. In general, there is much more emphasis on personal responsibility in Western society than in Japanese society.

[Asojima]

Plus, I think you have it backwards. In general, there is much more emphasis on personal responsibility in Western society than in Japanese society.

(Sign of disapproval...) (Sign of approval...) (Sign of approval...)

[Kirinoumi]

Anyway, I find the whole "Asashoryu didn't/couldn't adjust to how Ozumo works, hence Ozumo needs to change" tack frequently taken to be rather hubristic. Lots and lots of other foreigners (from Takamiyama to Kyokutenho), while frequently travelling a thorny road, have managed to do their best to integrate into the Kyokai's operational framework, and they'll continue to be the ones to help modernize the Kyokai bit by bit, not wouldbe-revolutionaries like Asashoryu who feel it is for them to choose which parts of sumo tradition they feel like observing and which ones they don't.

My point was that it shouldn't be a completely one-sided affair. Some of the things that Asashoryu brought to sumo could have been and should have been accepted and appreciated, such as his intensity, his variety of technique, his warm thanks offered to fans in yusho interviews, and his efforts to extend the popularity of sumo in Mongolia. Instead, everything was twisted into being an affront to sumo sensibility. He was too aggressive; his unfamiliar techniques were exposing other unprepared rikishi to risk of injury; he should be more stoic; and he loves his own country more than Japan. Instead of trying to work with their most talented athlete in an atmosphere of encouragement and understanding, the Kyokai started from a standpoint of "It's 100% our way or the highway."

And how a "sensible" training system for foreigners would differ from what was theoretically possible already up till now will also require some additional explanation.

Admittedly, I don't have insider knowledge of heya operations, but I have occasionally heard Sumo bigwigs supporting the idea that foreign rikishi should be forbidden to use their own language and forced to throw away any vestige of their home culture. Then a while later I would read about another official spouting a much more inclusionary message of same-country mentors and occasional home visits. Then there is the off-and-on policy of one gaijin per heya. And the recruiting focus, which surely must get some direction from the Kyokai itself, has moved from Pacific Islanders to Mongolians to Eastern Europeans within a twenty-year time period. How are heya supposed to develop a reliable support system when the rules change so frequently? Now, I'm not saying that change and experimentation are bad. That would be at odds with my larger point, as you point out. I'm just saying that this is an example of how the Kyokai so often makes seemingly definitive decisions with little forethought, then turns that decision on its head at the next opportunity, and I think this makes things worse for the foreign rikishi, who are already dealing with what is for them a new and uncertain environment.

MLB.com is widely regarded as one of the more comprehensive and well-done official sports portals, and still most dedicated fans prefer to get their fandom fix from Baseball-Reference and ESPN and talk about baseball on various blogs and forums, rather than the official site. What is it you would have expected the Kyokai to produce on that front?

Well, I can go to NFL.com and read the latest NFL news, watch highlights from that weeks games, play fantasy football, and buy NFL merchandise. As far as I know, I can't do any of the equivalent sumo activities at the Goo Sumo website.

[Kirinoumi]

Plus, I think you have it backwards. In general, there is much more emphasis on personal responsibility in Western society than in Japanese society.

(Sign of disapproval...) (Sign of approval...) (Sign of approval...)

(Sorry, I think I may open an off-topic can of worms with this, but I can't resist responding.)

Do you disagree with that statement?

The West:

Behave badly, don't do your homework, and fail your tests? You'll be doing the school year over.

You're a genius? Go ahead and skip a grade. Start college at age 16 if you can.

Mess up at work? You're fired.

Do an amazing job at work? You're promoted.

Down on your luck? Oh, well. You're obviously not trying hard enough.

Old and helpless? I guess you didn't plan well. We'll stick you in a home somewhere.

Japan:

Behave badly, don't do your homework, and fail your tests? Well, that's the teacher's fault. You'll move up with your classmates anyway.

You're a genius? Too bad. The class moves at one speed.

Mess up at work? As long as you're a team player and loyal to the company, you won't be fired.

Do an amazing job at work? Stop showing off. You're too young to be promoted anyway.

Down on your luck? The family is always there to support you.

Old and helpless? The government will get you a daily helper and make sure you have medical care.

It's not always a good thing, but I do believe that people are held individually responsible in the West more than in Japan.

[hidenohana]

I did not find Jonosuke's post as a venemous attack on Asa, but a pretty factual statement about how he got to where he is now.

It seems that, especially in Western societies, no one want to take any responsabilities about one's actions. It's always someone else

fault!

So Mongolia is part of the West now? Concerning Asashoryu, I think a lot of people here exculpate his vicious streak,his arrogance, his wishing to push the rules to push the rules to the breaking point because they see them as probably an essential part of the demons that drove him into becoming such a great fighter.This is a man whose inner world has been moulded by the wide open plains and mountains of Mongolia.Also for better or worse he has imbibed and tried to live up to the archetype of the macho swaggering Mongolian male. Yes,he may have fallen short of the Ozumo ideal and ,yes,it is after all Japan who offered him this opportunity,but doesn't the fact that he is such a great champion and he gave the public so many incredible bouts count for nothing?

There are lot of things in sumo that give me pause for thought: the severe beating allegedly meted out by Chiyonofuji that ended the career of Hokutenyu's brother,the Japanese public seemingly delighting in the degradation of "much respected" Yokozuna Akebono in his post-sumo career, the recent beating to death of a young rikishi,the murder of the trainer and sumo wrestler before they were going to spill the beans about match fixing....

However,rightly or wrongly, I'm willing to overlook such things because to me sumo is a amazing sport and wonderful spectacle. Especially, the drama of Takanohana going up against Musashimaru,or Asashoryu charging up the ranks,or the great rivlary between Hakuho and Asa are things that make sumo great for me.

Edited September 23, 2008 by hidenohana

[hidenohana]

West

Behave badly, don't do your homework, and fail your tests? You'll be doing the school year over.

Not generally in Britain to the best of my knowledge.I spent a few years in private school in India and yes if you failed your end of year tests you had to retake the year. (Sign of disapproval...)

[Asashosakari]

My point was that it shouldn't be a completely one-sided affair. Some of the things that Asashoryu brought to sumo could have been and should have been accepted and appreciated, such as his intensity, his variety of technique, his warm thanks offered to fans in yusho interviews, and his efforts to extend the popularity of sumo in Mongolia.

That's all fine and good, but somehow these calls for increased accomodation of foreign rikishi near-inevitably turn into "this is how it would affect/benefit Asashoryu", which is an approach that gets a bit tiresome after a while. He may be a yokozuna, but he doesn't deserve any more accomodations than Kakuryu, or Ryuo, or Daionami do. They all (arguably) deserve some level of additional accomodation compared to what the Kyokai is giving them so far, but not nearly as much as the Asashoryu spirit squad has repeatedly demanded over the last few years.

... his unfamiliar techniques were exposing other unprepared rikishi to risk of injury

I don't recall any significant complaints about the danger levels of his on-dohyo techniques since about 2004 (unless unnecessary shoving now constitutes a technique), only about his employing such techniques in practice, where those complaints were quite appropriate.

Edit: To backtrack a little bit...I think his ketaguri against Kisenosato two years ago received some tsk-tsk'ing for being dangerous because it was unexpected, but even more so for being too undignified (defensive instead of offensive) of a technique for a yokozuna.

Instead of trying to work with their most talented athlete in an atmosphere of encouragement and understanding, the Kyokai started from a standpoint of "It's 100% our way or the highway."

Not really. They were very lenient for the first couple of years of his yokozuna tenure, and ironically it was probably the much-maligned Kitanoumi who held his protective hand over Asashoryu far longer than was warranted. (I hope all the people who thought that Kitanoumi's dismissal would usher in a period of new understanding are happy with the Musashigawa administration so far.) Actually, while Asashoryu was winning everything left and right in 2005, he miraculously managed to not cause significant offense...apparently it's only when he doesn't go 84-6 on the year that he is incapable of following the rules.

Admittedly, I don't have insider knowledge of heya operations, but I have occasionally heard Sumo bigwigs supporting the idea that foreign rikishi should be forbidden to use their own language and forced to throw away any vestige of their home culture. Then a while later I would read about another official spouting a much more inclusionary message of same-country mentors and occasional home visits.

You're putting way too much stock in random pronouncements with no official power. In the end, stablemasters are quite autonomous in how they decide to run things, and the leadership hasn't had much interest in curbing that freedom, at least until the Tokitsukaze incident happened. Some stables certainly don't seem to have any trouble finding middle ground with their foreign deshi, so the current situation is much less for a lack of a Kyokai-wide framework, and more due to the relative skills of each shisho. But that's just as true for Japanese rikishi...some heya are run very strictly altogether, while in others the oyakata is strict primarily in the keikoba, and yet others are running more like a family. The foreign fans' focus just on foreign rikishi is quite relentless, however, and IMO misplaced.

Then there is the off-and-on policy of one gaijin per heya.

How has it been "off-and-on"? Offhand, I recall two major policies since the 1980s/early 1990s free-for-all ended: two slots per stable with a sumo-wide maximum of (IIRC) 40, followed by one slot per stable with no overall maximum (and already-filled additional slots from the first policy grandfathered in).

And the recruiting focus, which surely must get some direction from the Kyokai itself, has moved from Pacific Islanders to Mongolians to Eastern Europeans within a twenty-year time period. How are heya supposed to develop a reliable support system when the rules change so frequently?

That's begging the question. Why do you assume the Kyokai has any interest in developing the equivalent of Dominican baseball academies, or rather, why do you assume they should have that interest? They're tasked with maintaining sumo as a Japanese cultural heritage, not turning it into an international juggernaut. (In case "reliable support system" was meant to refer to the training rather than recruiting, I'm not sure what you might be getting at. Is integrating an Eastern European a completely different challenge than integrating a Pacific Islander?)

I think you're also not giving the individual oyakata enough credit for their recruiting decisions. Perhaps a little less trust put into kawika et al.'s "Pacific Islanders were BANNED from sumo!!" pronouncements might be in order.

Well, I can go to NFL.com and read the latest NFL news, watch highlights from that weeks games, play fantasy football, and buy NFL merchandise. As far as I know, I can't do any of the equivalent sumo activities at the Goo Sumo website.

Are you assuming that those types of offerings would be considered a major addition to the site by the Kyokai's target audience, i.e. Japanese fans? Some evidence would be appreciated.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke]

This is not just Yokozuna job. This is a passion. This is not merely a determination. This is a mission. Dagva accomplished his mission with passion.

I agree with this 100%.

When I read when Barbara wrote to Asashoryu, it is just a job he does in Japan, despite her adoration to Asashoryu, she has done a disservice to Asashoryu himself as well as all the other rikishi who toil in Ozumo.

If we just talk about sports, any top athlete doesn't consider what he does is merely a job. Their active time is relatively short and whatever they do whether contributing to the team's success or their own contribution to the sport, they do them with passion and almost like a calling. Ichiro when he achieved 8 consecutive seasons of 200 hits or more this year said he was really moved to have done it as it was like a dream linking together him playing baseball now and another great player who played the same sport dozens of years ago.

A yokozuna does get paid a salary regardless of what he does and he never does get demoted. Obviously based on his records, he could be asked to retire but why would try to overachieve himself if it is simply a job. Why would have Asashoryu tried to win six consecutive basho in a row? It's not a requirement for the job.

And also her assertion that Asashoryu loves Mongolia and its people so much that he goes back every so often and he comes to Japan for a yokozuna job also is unfair to all other rikishi from Mongolia. They don't go back to Mongolia as often as he does but I am sure they love their homeland as much as Asashoryu does.

And calling what rikishi does as a job is a great disservice to all rikishi. Most rikishi don't get paid a salary. Why would they get up early in the morning and sweep the floors and clean toilets before they even work for their seniors without a pay. Certainly they don't consider it as a job. When a reporter asked Takamisakari how he felt about Nagatani-En cut their kensho banner from six to three on his bouts? Takamisakari said he hasn't been doing Ozumo to get six banners, not doing it for strictly for money. For him it isn't a job.

Ozeki Kaio knows himself, he has less chance of ever becoming a yokozuna. Almost every part of his body screams every day. It takes him twenty minutes to get out of his own bed as he first has his body warmed up enough and move a bit before he can actually get up. Why would he continue? As many years as he has been doing, he has enough money tacked away and he already has a Kabu so he can retire any time. Why would he persist? Because to him it isn't a simply a job.

Some may see my post(s) as attacks on Asashoryu. I don't view them as that way at all. However I do believe he should shoulder as much blame for some of things that happened. I don't doubt at all his contribution (enormous, I might add). When he came into the scene, Ozumo was dominated by big Hawaiians, Every Makuuchi rikishi felt they had to gain weight, often grotesquely. I remember Takanohana weighing almost 165 kg and that to him was unhealthy and it may even have contributed to his knee injury later. But he felt he needed mass to counter them. Asashoryu changed all that. He showed speed and techniques could overcome size. He definitely showed intensity as Takasago oyakata said Asashoryu without intensity is just a regular run of mill rikishi.

I don't think Asashoryu is a Dai Yokozuna though, at least at this stage. A yokozuna needs to be invincible but that isn't what yokozuna is all about. Ozumo is not a sport with win at any costs. And I think that is something the Kyokai wants to teach to foreign born recruits especially at the start. Most non-Japanese fans often wonder why Ozumo won't cater more to foreign fans and they feel the Kyokai should change their ways to bring their sport to the world. There is an amateur sumo group and they are trying to make sumo as an international sport. Ozumo has no such aspirations. Whether anyone likes it or not, they are rooted to Japan and they do their business strictly focusing on people living in Japan, not abroad.

The Kyokai does foreign jungyo but they do it as a part of cultural exchange under the Ministry of Education program. They don't try to bring more fans to Ozumo and they are not there to sell more tickets in Fukuoka or Nagoya.They certainly will like to make money as a business venture but the risk is assumed by the promoters. In Japan NHK BS shows Ozumo from 1 PM to 6 PM every basho day - 5 hours with no commercial. NHK General does three hours average and NHK Radio 1 does from 4 PM on. They have a mobile service and most papers cover their basho every day. They have two monthly magazines plus bimonthly NHK magazine. So if you are in Japan you get enough information. And that is all they are after. I am sorry to be rather blunt but they really don't waste their energy to foreign fans living outside of Japan. The numbers are too few and it's not their mandate, not their mission. Their essential mission is to disseminate the culture and customs of Ozumo and preserve the traditions by providing instructions and holding their basho and jungyo. Nowhere it says they need to be more like a sport in West or be progressive sport in the 21st century.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Asashosakari]

At the risk of going far too meta on this thread... The following comparison isn't meant as a discussion-starter in itself, just as a point of reference:

There's a trend in the U.S. of people moving away from certain over-taxed, deteriorating hellholes (primarily in the Northeast, to a lesser degree California, probably some others as well) and moving to states in the South where the cost of living is lower. Many of them adjust in their new places just fine, but some immediately end up lobbying for exactly the same types of things that helped turn their previous locations into such over-taxed, deteriorating hellholes in the first place. Through no ill intent, mind you...it's just the way they like things to be, and cause-and-effect is notoriously difficult to recognize over long periods of time.

Likewise, some foreign fans may get hooked on the traditions and elaborate customs and all the other things that set sumo so far apart from any Western athletic endeavour, but they just can't accept sumo for what it is and leave well enough alone, instead demanding that it become more like what they're accustomed to and ideally "a progressive sport for the 21th century" just like all the increasingly-bland sports on offer elsewhere. That doesn't mean it's wrong to speak out against true abominations like beating deshi or corruption, but anyone who thinks that the way Asashoryu has been treated during his career is some sort of huge unfathomable injustice (I recall seeing the phrase "human rights violation" more than a few times during his suspension last year, and not used sarcastically) may want to take a couple of steps back and check themselves for signs of tunnel vision.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Asashosakari

[HenryK]

This seems ridiculous to me. Hes 28 years old. Does he have any major injuries? Minor ones? I don't see anything wrong with him.

1. His personal life is in shambles.

2. He is being plagued by chronic injuries.

3. His physical and mental condition has deteriorated.

4. The kyokai is on the verge of a roids witchhunt.

5. He is being overshadowed by a rival yokozuna.

6. His primary life interests seem to lie outside sumo.

7. There is a new rijicho who obviously has a strong dislike for him.

8. He is being verbally savaged by most of the other oyakata.

9. He is being hounded by a hostile press.

10. He is financially well off with many business interests.

11. He longs for Mongolia where he is most comfortable (and widely accepted).

Other than that, everything is fine.

Nice summary.

I hope Asashoryu will regroup and give it another try. Ozumo without him won't be the same. Hakuho is too dull to carry the sport all on his own.

Edited September 23, 2008 by HenryK

[Sakana]

The Kyokai does foreign jungyo but they do it as a part of cultural exchange under the Ministry of Education program. They don't try to bring more fans to Ozumo and they are not there to sell more tickets in Fukuoka or Nagoya.They certainly will like to make money as a business venture but the risk is assumed by the promoters. [...] I am sorry to be rather blunt but they really don't waste their energy to foreign fans living outside of Japan. The numbers are too few and it's not their mandate, not their mission. Their essential mission is to disseminate the culture and customs of Ozumo and preserve the traditions by providing instructions and holding their basho and jungyo. Nowhere it says they need to be more like a sport in West or be progressive sport in the 21st century.

I agree.

It reminds me that it was the axe I took in my memory this year about sum

Edited September 23, 2008 by Sakana

[Manekineko]

I hope Asashoryu will regroup and give it another try. Ozumo without him won't be the same. Hakuho is too dull to carry the sport all on his own.

I agree with the first two statements fullheartedly, but the last one? Did you see today's bout against Ama? Hakuho's sumo is simply fascinating. He may be in danger of becoming as boring as Takanohana, but since I was always mesmerised by the way Taka in his prime just neutralised any move his opponent could make, I don't mind that.

Edit: I do agree that Hakuho would need a credible rival should Asashoryu retire. Taka had Ake... So if that is what you meant by your last statement, I agree with that as well.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Manekineko

[Peterao]

(Oshidashi...) Just a warning to others.

Japan:

Behave badly, don't do your homework, and fail your tests? Well, that's the teacher's fault. You'll move up with your classmates anyway.

You're a genius? Too bad. The class moves at one speed.

In America (the only Western nation I have personal experience with), they have separate classes in the same school for different types of students. In Japan, they have separate schools for different types of students. The poor ones in the poor schools will graduate just like the good ones in the good schools, but ultimately one's individual ability is recognized just like in America.

Mess up at work? As long as you're a team player and loyal to the company, you won't be fired.

Maybe true before. Not true now. They'll fire you if you don't do the honorable thing and resign first.

Do an amazing job at work? Stop showing off. You're too young to be promoted anyway.

See above. Companies in Japan can no longer afford to keep the cream from rising to the top.

Down on your luck? The family is always there to support you.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously, how did these stereotypes survive into the 21st century?

Old and helpless? The government will get you a daily helper and make sure you have medical care.

Oh boy! Please tell us where this service is available...in my family's experience, the government may provide financial experience, but you're on your own trying to find a "daily helper", and they definitely don't make sure you have medical care.

I sure would like to live in the Japan that you are imagining!

(ok, it's safe to start reading about sumo again from here on out... :-P )

[Gusoyama]

The average sumo fan is probably served quite well by the official site, and would regard e.g. the Sumo-DB as total overkill.

the SumoDB is to Sumo what Baseball-Reference.com is to Baseball. Simply the apex of statistical availability. The sumo world would be a lesser place without those people who brought it about, especially Doitsuyama. But you're right. Ask Joe Q Public in the US if they know about baseball-reference.com, and most will say no. Ask Hiro K. Nakamura if they know about the SumoDB, and most will say no.

[HenryK]

I hope Asashoryu will regroup and give it another try. Ozumo without him won't be the same. Hakuho is too dull to carry the sport all on his own.

I agree with the first two statements fullheartedly, but the last one? Did you see today's bout against Ama? Hakuho's sumo is simply fascinating. He may be in danger of becoming as boring as Takanohana, but since I was always mesmerised by the way Taka in his prime just neutralised any move his opponent could make, I don't mind that.

Edit: I do agree that Hakuho would need a credible rival should Asashoryu retire. Taka had Ake... So if that is what you meant by your last statement, I agree with that as well.

Yes, Hakuho's sumo can be absolutely breathtaking, like from another planet (btw, didn't see him agasint Ama yet, waiting for banzuke.com). And yet, I don't see how at this stage his pulling power could compensate for Asashoryu's. This has more to do with charisma (or lack thereof) off the dohyo than with sumo itself.

Now it's unfair to ask natural pulling power from a man that young, and I expect Hakuho to become a more interesting character as he matures. But this will take time.

Btw, I don't think Asashoryu's domination pre-Hakuho was good for sumo -- but I feel Hakuho-dominated sumo will be worse. As you write, a strong rival would help, but who could this be? Kootooshu? Ama? Goeido? All seem a very long shot. At least Asashoryu had Tochiazuma to upset him every now and then.

[Hinerikeri]

Wow, I have to say that I am somewhat stunned by your very negative post that betrayed a radically conservative view on sumo. I have always respected your wealth of knowledge and experience regarding sumo, but I'm really taken aback by this sudden venomous attack on Asashoryu and progressivism in sumo. Do you really think that the Sumo Kyokai is beyond reproach and that Asashoryu should have jettisoned his whole personality and transformed himself to fit some generic yokozuna mold? I love sumo and value it's history and traditions, but I don't believe that the integrity of sumo in incompatible with foreigners or with adopting certain organizational reforms that can bring sumo in line with 21st century morality and practicality.

It seems to me that there are defenders of the Kyokai on one side and defenders of Asashoryu on the other side. I would like to remind everyone that without the Kyokai, Asashoryu would not be a Yokozuna. The notion that Asashoryu is the one beyond reproach and the Kyokai needs to change seems ridiculous to me. Sumo is a culture, the good and the bad, and when you change the culture it will go away and never come back. Yes, there is room for some change, but not as much as some people would think. Why bring someone from the outside in? For the sake of the 21st century? LOL! Why not educate the ones that earned their way into the association. If it's the rules you don't like, go start your own Kyokai and play by your own rules. As far as 21st century morality, you can keep it. 21st century practicality I'm OK with!

As for bringing sumo into the 21st century, the Kyokai can't seem to win. They implement drug testing and actually catch someone doing it and then get called out for going on a witch hunt. Unbelievable!!!! Is it really a witch hunt if you actually catch a witch? Wonder which witch gets caught next?!?!?!?

Hinerikeri

[HenryK]

Wow, I have to say that I am somewhat stunned by your very negative post that betrayed a radically conservative view on sumo. I have always respected your wealth of knowledge and experience regarding sumo, but I'm really taken aback by this sudden venomous attack on Asashoryu and progressivism in sumo. Do you really think that the Sumo Kyokai is beyond reproach and that Asashoryu should have jettisoned his whole personality and transformed himself to fit some generic yokozuna mold? I love sumo and value it's history and traditions, but I don't believe that the integrity of sumo in incompatible with foreigners or with adopting certain organizational reforms that can bring sumo in line with 21st century morality and practicality.

It seems to me that there are defenders of the Kyokai on one side and defenders of Asashoryu on the other side.

If so this is a regrettable state of affairs. Neither Asashoryu nor the Kyokai should be immune from criticism.

[Vikanohara]

At the risk of going far too meta on this thread... The following comparison isn't meant as a discussion-starter in itself, just as a point of reference:

There's a trend in the U.S. of people moving away from certain over-taxed, deteriorating hellholes (primarily in the Northeast, to a lesser degree California, probably some others as well) and moving to states in the South where the cost of living is lower. Many of them adjust in their new places just fine, but some immediately end up lobbying for exactly the same types of things that helped turn their previous locations into such over-taxed, deteriorating hellholes in the first place. Through no ill intent, mind you...it's just the way they like things to be, and cause-and-effect is notoriously difficult to recognize over long periods of time.

Likewise, some foreign fans may get hooked on the traditions and elaborate customs and all the other things that set sumo so far apart from any Western athletic endeavour, but they just can't accept sumo for what it is and leave well enough alone, instead demanding that it become more like what they're accustomed to and ideally "a progressive sport for the 21th century" just like all the increasingly-bland sports on offer elsewhere. That doesn't mean it's wrong to speak out against true abominations like beating deshi or corruption, but anyone who thinks that the way Asashoryu has been treated during his career is some sort of huge unfathomable injustice (I recall seeing the phrase "human rights violation" more than a few times during his suspension last year, and not used sarcastically) may want to take a couple of steps back and check themselves for signs of tunnel vision.

Oh so true. Some time ago, I was thinking "why not make sumo a little more global, with more foreign rikishi, tournaments outside Japan, followed by broadcasting in several other countries, ..." Mostly because I would love to talk about sumo with people I know, as now I'm the only one of the people I meet in life that loves to follow sumo wrestling. But on the other hand, I like sumo this much because of the long tradition, the whole banzuke and basho system and because it's more than just a sport.

[hidenohana]

In fairness even sometimes I found Asashoryu's behaviour distasteful-particularly his almost coming to blows on the dohyo with Kyokushuzan and the subsequent breaking of his car mirror.I also dislike the way in which he refuses to bow after a defeat.Surely financial penalties would be enough to discourage the practice?

Other things I find difficult to comprehend though-like when the Kyokai forced Asashoryu to change his fighting style from vicious all out harite to more considered yotsu sumo.To my mind,this lessened the excitement of his bouts and in a way backfired on the Kyokai,because the change in style made Asashoryu into a truly formidable ,difficult to beat Yokozuna.

One more thing that has never been answered at least to my satisfaction.

What were the Kyokai thinking,in the first place,when they allowed foreigners into Ozumo? :-D

[HenryK]

Oh so true. Some time ago, I was thinking "why not make sumo a little more global, with more foreign rikishi, tournaments outside Japan, followed by broadcasting in several other countries, ..." Mostly because I would love to talk about sumo with people I know, as now I'm the only one of the people I meet in life that loves to follow sumo wrestling. But on the other hand, I like sumo this much because of the long tradition, the whole banzuke and basho system and because it's more than just a sport.

Well I like sumo the way it is as well, but this doesn't imply that every action of the Kyokai would reflect divine wisdom. Besides, safeguarding sumo's traditions and modernizing it is not an either or. The Kyokai needs to do both, and smartly so to keep sumo attractive.

Edited September 23, 2008 by HenryK

[Shomishuu]

With the Asashoryu situation, more than anything else, I feel sadness. Sadness for what could have been, not only yusho-wise, but for a rich sumo legacy that could have been oh so much more than it will be. I

[skycruiser]

WARNING: NON SUMO

But no one can go to a foreign country and live in somebody